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|  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/1/2001 10:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here ya go Bob, PLEASE explain. I am very interested in hearing this.
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 11/1/2001 11:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Jesus speaks of the church already in Matt. 18:17. Uses "ecclesia" even. Hmmm. Acts 5:11 uses the same word as well. How 'bout that. That's before Paul right?
Ah, but the more important question remains: what in the world is gained by trying to say that the church didn't start until Paul? What sort of presuppostions would have to be in place in order to even suppose such an idea?
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/1/2001 11:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | Seems to me that ANOTHER of the implicit challenges that Bob and others have layed down is that the 12 Apostles were only to the Jews. (Do I remember correctly.) So, are we challenged to find proof that that is not true. Seems to my momory that Peter had dealings with Gentiles.
Does anyone want to second guess which verses I'll find in looking, and beat me to the punch?
PoW
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 11/01/2001 4:42:04 PM
CALLING ALL DISPENSATIONALISTS:
Do you then mean to say that 1 & 2 Peter and James and 1,2,3 John were only written to Jewish believers, who were under this different dispensation than you and me?
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 11/02/2001 07:52:44 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/1/2001 12:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | More homework for us non-dispensationalists...
Bob said, in the string that started this one (page one): quote: The twelve are apostles of the circumcision with the earthly hope of the kingdom which was promised to David. Our hope is heavenly.
I tend to think of David looking forward to the same Kingdom as me and you.
What verses can we offer?
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 11/1/2001 12:25 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
More homework for us non-dispensationalists...
Bob said, in the string that started this one (page one): quote: The twelve are apostles of the circumcision with the earthly hope of the kingdom which was promised to David. Our hope is heavenly.
I tend to think of David looking forward to the same Kingdom as me and you.
What verses can we offer?
PoW
Seems to me that some of the Psalms might be of use in terms of what David imagined salvation entailed....
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/1/2001 6:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | I have heard of this earthly-heavenly kingdom thing. I believe the dispensationalist thought is that the unfulfilled promises to Israel which were never filled by the church will be fulfilled in an earthly kingdom during the Millenium. During this time the church's kingdom will be in the heavens. Some people say that the heavenly kingdom has already been started, but I think the majority of dispensationalists do not believe this.
According to what I have read in the Bible Knowledge Commentary which was put out by Dallas Theological Seminary and is highly dispensationalist, when Christ came the first time he offered an earthly kingdom to the Jews to fulfill the promises that had been made. The Jews rejected Him and forced the church to come into existence. The promises for an earthly kingdom still remain though, and that is where the idea of two kingdoms comes from. The earthly kingdom is for Israel and the nations and the heavenly kingdom is for the church. I think this is only during the Millenium though.
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 11/1/2001 6:23 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
I have heard of this earthly-heavenly kingdom thing. I believe the dispensationalist thought is that the unfulfilled promises to Israel which were never filled by the church will be fulfilled in an earthly kingdom during the Millenium. During this time the church's kingdom will be in the heavens. Some people say that the heavenly kingdom has already been started, but I think the majority of dispensationalists do not believe this.
According to what I have read in the Bible Knowledge Commentary which was put out by Dallas Theological Seminary and is highly dispensationalist, when Christ came the first time he offered an earthly kingdom to the Jews to fulfill the promises that had been made. The Jews rejected Him and forced the church to come into existence. The promises for an earthly kingdom still remain though, and that is where the idea of two kingdoms comes from. The earthly kingdom is for Israel and the nations and the heavenly kingdom is for the church. I think this is only during the Millenium though.
Kyle Essary
Lovely. Thanks. Now its all clear to me.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/1/2001 6:33 PM (GMT -6) |   | Good thing it is clear to you, because I don't understand it at all, hehe.
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/1/2001 6:34 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Bob, you wanna clear this one up? I have looked all over your website (there is alot to look over! Nice site!) and only find sparse references to this. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain.
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/2/2001 7:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | Wow, you can really tell that I had been up for a VERY long time when I wrote those last few posts, hehe. They seem to ramble a bit.
Charles Ryrie (a Scofield dispensationalist) wrote this about Ultradispensationalism which appears to be the type of dispensationalism that Bob fits into:
quote:
THE ORIGIN OF DISPENSATIONALISM Ultradispensationalism had its origin in the ministry and writings of Ethelbert W. Bullinger (1837-1913). He received his education at King's College, London, and was an ordained Anglican clergyman. He was the author of seventy-seven works, including the Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the Greek New Testament and the Companion Bible. He was a scholar of repute, editor for nineteen years of a monthly magazine called Things to Come, and an accomplished musician.
His theology was a mixture. He held the heretical doctrine of the extinction of the soul between death and resurrection. He was silent on the final state of the lost, and many of his followers were and are annihilationists. In his sevenfold dispensational scheme Bullinger had two dispensations between Pentecost and the end of the church age. He placed the Gospels and the book of Acts under the Law and commended the dispensation of the Church with the ministry of Paul after Acts 28:28. The prison epistles, therefore - Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians - set forth the fullness of the revelation of the mystery of this church age. He also denied that water baptism and the Lord's Supper are for this age.
His dispensational teaching has been the fount of all the ultradispensational teachings from his day to the present. However, many ultradispensationalists do not teach soul sleep and annihilation. But almost all hold to the doctrine that the church did not begin at Pentecost but did begin with Paul (although I ran across one group that believes the Body of Christ began at Pentecost even though the group does not practice water baptism or the Lord's Supper).
THE TYPES OF ULTRADISPENSATIONALISM The Extreme Type In England, the extreme dispensationalism of Bullinger was promulgated by his succesor, Charles H. Welch of London. He divided the book of Acts into three sections: (1) restoration, the period when the kingdom was reoffered to Israel in Acts 1-9; (2) reconciliation, the period of Jew and Gentile; and (3) rejection of the nation of Israel, which was not actually fulfilled until Acts 28, when Israel was set aside. Such division is typical of this school of dispensationalism. In America, the extreme type was promoted by A.E. Knoch and Vladimir M. Gelesnoff. Knoch is best known for his Concordant Version of the Sacred Scriptures, published in Los Angeles in 1926 and completely revised in 1930. Knowch was even more extreme then Bullinger, seeing four dispensations from Christ to Paul's prison ministry. His followers included a number of extremists who boldly advocated annihilation and universal reconciliation. Less radical and more true to the original position of Bullinger was Otis Q. Sellers of Grand Rapids, Michigan. He largely followed Welch in his view of Acts.
The Moderate Type The most widely known and influential ultradispensationalists in America are those associated with Worldwide Grace Testimony (now known as Grace Mission), Grace Gospel Fellowship, and Berean Bible Society. Cornelius R. Stam, J.C. O'Hair, and Charles F. Baker are perhaps the best-known names connected with these groups. Berean Searchlight and Truth are representative magazines, and Grace Bible College in Grand Rapids, Michigan (formerly Milwaukee Bible Institute), teaches their point of view. A number of books, pamphlets, and articles have come from the pens of men in the movement. As to doctrine, this group is agreed that the church, the Body of Christ, began with Paul and did not begin on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2; however, they are not of one mind as to when the church did actually begin. O'Hair placed its beginning at Acts 13, whereas Stam thought that it began as early as Acts 9. In other words, they are sure when the church did not begin but not sure when it did begin! Because they begin the church before Acts 28 (in contrast to the extremist school) they do observe the Lord's Supper but do not believe that water baptism is for this church age.
Comparison of the Two Types
Points of Agreement
1. The great commision of Matthew and Mark is Jewish and not for the church. 2. The ministry of the Twelve was a continuation of Christ's ministry. 3. The church did not begin at Pentecost. 4. Water baptism is not for this church age. 5. There is a difference between Paul's early and later ministries. 6. Israel, not the church, is the Bride of Christ.
Points of Difference
1. When did the church begin? Before or after Acts 28? 2. How long is the transition period in the book of Acts? 3. What is the proper place of the Lord's Supper? 4. What Scripture is written to the church primarily?
I think it is clear that Bob fits into the moderate ultradispensationalism that Ryrie talks about. In fact, according to his website Bob was ordained as part of Grace Gospel Fellowship in 1974. I think it is a really interesting interpretation that you definitely don't hear everyday. For a more accurate view of what Bob believes here is a link to his dispensational chart:
biblicalanswers.com/chart_12dispensations.htm
Kyle Essary
Edited by - Kyle Essary on 11/02/2001 12:28:10 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 11/2/2001 8:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | Dear Kyle Essery,
Thanks for the info, it is very helpful. While in a demented sort of way, it may be "interesting" what these people teach, what is quite clear is that it is heretical. The abuses of Scripture are profound. The integrity of the Bible as a whole is completely compromised. in writing my dispensations of sexual ethics on the Baptism thread it became very clear to me how EASY it is to make the Bible say whatever you want if you simply cut and paste propositions and organize them in a way that pleases you. THIS, I submit, is what constitutes their methodology. Reading 1way's comments on his ideas about method confirms this. Bob's silence on issues of method also lends credibility. At least as much credibility as any of Bob's own arguments from silence. **Don't get me wrong, what I wrote IS the uniquivocal teaching of the Bible on those issues in those places, but what we do with that is very much at issue.**
I have asked around and it has been recommended to me that people who are struggling with the ideas of dispensationalism should strongly consider reading:
Daniel Fuller's book "The Unity of the Bible."
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK
Edited by - ModesofThought on 11/02/2001 2:00:53 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/2/2001 9:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | OK, I know that I am on a posting binge, but here ya go anyways.
Here is a link to Bob's definition of the 12 dispensations:
biblicalanswers.com/book_12dispensations.htm
As appears to be his fashion, it is very thorough with strong Scriptural support.
Here is the rest of Ryrie's discussion on Ultradispensationalism which raises some pretty good objections from the classical dispensationalist teaching:
quote:
ERRORS OF ULTRADISPENSATIONALISM Normative dispensationalists believe that there are some basic errors in the ultradispensational system, and, therefore, they reject the system as diverse from their own and reject any implication that the two are similar.
Erroneous Concept of a Dispensation
In this book a dispensation has been defined as a distinguishable economy in the outworking of God's purpose. In relation to ultradispensationalism the definition raises this most pertinent question: Is something distinguishably different being done since Paul came on the scene that was not being done from Pentecost to the time of Paul? (It matters little whether "Paul's coming on the scene" mean Acts 9, 13 or 28.) Were these features and characteristics and doctrine of the Body church before Paul? What the ultradispensationalist fails to recognize is that the distinguishableness of a dispensation is related to what God is doing, not necessarily to what He reveals at the time, and least of all to what man understands of His purposes. It is certainly true that within the scope of any dispensation there is progressive revelation, and in the present one it is obvious that not all of what God was going to do was revealed on the Day of Pentecost. These are economies of God, not of man, and we determine the limits of a dispensation not by what any one person within that dispensation understood but by what we may understand now from the complete revelation of the Word. Actually, we are in a better position to understand than the writers of the New Testament themselves. Ultradispensationalists fail to recognize the difference between the progress of doctrine as it was during the time of revelation and the representation of it in the writing of the Scripture. On this point Thomas D. Bernard has well observed,
There would be a difference between the actual course of some important evterprise - say of a military campaign, for instance - and the abbreviated narrative, the selected documents, and the well-considered arrangement, by which its conductor might make the plan and execution of it clear to others. In such a case the man who read would have a more perfect understanding of the mind of the actor and the author than the man who saw; he would have the whole course of things mapped out for him on the true principles of order
The distinguishable feature of this economy is the formation of the church, which is Christ's Body. This is the work of God; therefore, the question that decides the beginning of this dispensation is, When did God begin to do this? not, When did man understand it? Only by consulting the completed revelation can we understand that God began to do this work on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 1:5; 11:15-16; 1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 1:18). Therefore, whether Peter and the others understood it then does not determine the beginning of the dispensation. Since the distinguishable feature of the present dispensation is the formation of the church and since the church began at Pentecost, there has been only one economy from Pentecost to the present. The ultradispensationalist can only offer the distinguishing feature of a Jewish church as over against a Gentile church, which is the Body of Christ, but such a distinction has no validity because there are Jews in today's Gentile church (even if it did not begin until after Pentecost) and because the baptism of the Spirit occured in Jerusalem at Pentecost. Thus, the same economy has been operative since the Day of Pentecost.
Erroneous Exegesis of Key Passages Passages concerning the Church Whatever church is mentioned before Paul is said by the ultradispensationalist to be the Jewish church and the Body church. This forces an artificial and unnatural interpretation of some very basic passages. Paul stated that before his conversion he persecuted the church of God (Gal. 1:13; 1 Cor. 15:9; Phil. 3:6). The natural understanding of these three references to the church is that it was the same church to which he and the converts won through his preaching were joined. Furthermore, the first mention of the word church in the book of Acts is described in the terms of people being "added to the Lord" (v. 14 KJV). This cannot be a Jewish church since it is desctined in terms of its members being added to the Lord Jesus. As Harry Ironside said in commenting on this verse, "This was before Paul's conversion. Observe it does not simply say that they were added to the complany of believers, nor even to the assembly alone, but they were added to the Lord. This is only by a baptism of the Holy Spirit." Similarly, the converts in Antioch were said to have been "added unto the Lord" (v.24 KJV). It is significant to note that Stan has no comment on this phrase. He bases his argument that this church in Acts 5 was a Jewish one and not the Body church on the fact there they were gathered in Solomon's porch! Such forced exegesis of these passages using and explaining the word church before Paul came on the scene is erroneous exegesis. Ephesians 3:1-12. Ultradispensationalists are fond of using this passage to attempt to prove that to Paul exclusively was revealed the mystery of the church, the Body of Christ. If this is provable, then the mystery church, the Body , could not have begun until Paul came on the scene. The most pointed critique of their use of this passage has been written (though unfortuanately buried in a footnote) by dispensationalist Erich Sauer:
In Eph. 3:3, Paul does not assert that he was the first to whom the mystery of the church had been known. He says only that the secret counsel that there is no difference in the church between Jew and Gentile, and the equal rights of the believing Gentiles and believing Jews had not been made known in the time (not before him personally but in general) before his generation, as it had now been revealed to "the holy apostles and prophets through the Spirit." The plural "apostles and prophets" is to be noted as implying that the revelation was not to Paul alone, and it was made to them "through the Spirit" not first by the agency of Paul (ver. 5). The "as it has now been revealed" may indeed suggest that this mystery had been hinted at in the Old Testament, but under veiled forms or types, and only now was properly revealed. What Paul does declare is that he had received this mystery by "revelation" (v. 3) But he says no word as to the sequence of these Divine revelations or the question of priority of reception. The emphasis of ver. 3 does not lie on "me" but on "revelation." He does not use here the emphatic Greek emoi, but the unemphatic moi, and he places it (in the original text), not at the head of the sentence, but appends it as unaccented. On the contrary, to stress the word "revelation" he places it early in the sentence: "according to revelation was made known to me the mystery." Here (as in Gal. 1:12) he does not wish to declare any priority of time for himself or that the revelation was given to him exclusively, but only that he stood alone in the matter independently of man. Not till Eph. 3:8, does he use the emphatic emoi and place it at the head of the sentence. But there he is not dealing with the first RECEPTION of the mystery but with his PROCLAMATION of it among the nations. This, of course, was then in fact the special task of Paul. He was the chief herald of the gospel to the peoples of the world. If one says: "I received this information from Mr. Jones himself," this does not assert that Mr. Jones had not formerly mentioned the matter to others. Trans.
Other Passages Concerning the Revelation of the Mystery The extreme type of ultradispensationalism is easily refuted by several passages in which Paul says that he had been preaching the mystery long before the Roman confinement. In Romans 16:25-27 he makes the plain statement that throughout the years his preaching had been in accordance with the revelation of the mystery. (Bullinger said that these verses were added to the epistle after he reached Rome several years later.) First Corinthians 12 is a detailed revelation of the mystery of the relationships of the Body of Christ. The epistle was written before the Roman imprisonment. They mystery of the Body church was clearly revealed, known, and proclaimed before Acts 28. Arguments like these have forced many ultradispensationalists into the school of the moderates. However, certain other considerations make clear that Paul was not the first or only one to speak of the mystery. The Lord said, "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd" (John 10:16). Furthermore, in the Upper Room, just before His crucifixion, He revealed the two basic mysteries of this church age. He told His disciples (Paul was not one of them), "In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you" (14:20). The "you in Me" relationship is that of being in the Body of Christ, of which Jesus is the Head. The "I in you" relationship is that of His indwelling presence. The Body church relationship was thus revealed by the Lord before His death, and it would be operative "in that day" (i.e. at the day when the Holy Spirit would come to be "in" them, John 14:17). When did this happen? It occured on the Day of Pentecost. One the Day of Pentecost, then, they were placed in Him, and the Body church began. That they may not have understood it we do not question, but the dispensation began when God began to do His distinguishably different work, not when, or if ever, man understood it.
Baptism "in" the Spirit Before His ascension the Lord promised the disciples that they would be baptized en pneumati ("in the Spirit," Acts 1:5). In 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul explains that being placed in the Body of Christ is accomplished by being baptized en pneumati. Since the promise of Acts 1:5 was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (see 11:15-16), and if this is the baptism explained in 1 Corinthians 12:13 as effecting entrance into the Body of Christ, that is an irrefutable argument for the Body church's beginning on the Day of Pentecost. The ultradispensationalist realizes the strength of this argument, and he is forced to argue for two baptisms. Acts 1:5, he says, is a baptism "with" the Spirit for miraculous power, and "this baptism with the Holy was not, of course, the baptism of Jews and Gentiles into one body" The baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13 is "by" the Spirit, and this is the one that forms the Body church. Such a distinction is quite admissible as far as possible meaning of the Greek preposistion en are concerned. The preposition does, at different times, mean "with," "in," and "by." That is not contested. What is contested is the artificiality of making it mean one thing in Acts and another in 1 Corinthians when it is used in exactly the same phrase with the word "Spirit." For the sake of argument, let the ultradispensationalist face the possibility that in both instances it does mean the same and refers to the same baptism. Then his entire effort to make a seperate dispensation of the early chapters of Acts of an alleged Jewish church crashes to the ground. It makes little difference how the en is translated. Translating "in," "with," or "by," still refers to Spirit baptism, which began on the Day of Pentecost. The only normal and consistent way to understand these references to baptism en pneumati leads to the inescapable conclusion that the Body of Christ began at Pentecost and that there was no separate dispensation of a Jewish church from Pentecost to the time of Paul. Even the ultradispensationalist acknowledges this. If en is the same in all occurences "the it is obvious that Spirit baptism first took place at Pentecost" However, he insists that it cannot be translated the same way in all instances, thus proving two baptisms. Normative dispensationalists usually translate the en as "with" in all passages except 1 Cor. 12:13, where they translate it "by." That makes Christ the agent of baptism in all but the 1 Corinthians passage, where the Spirit is the agent. But Acts 2:33 says that Christ is the ultimate agent of the Pentecostal Spirit baptism of the Spirit because He was the one who sent the Spirit. Furthermore, to support two baptisms on the basis that the Pentecost baptism is into the Spirit, whereas the Corinthians baptism is into the Body of Christ is tenuous. Both are true and both began at Pentecost, which is similar to the Spirit's ministry in sealing believers - He is both the Agent who seals and the sphere in which they are sealed. Similarly, the Spirit can both be the agents, and the spheres can be both the Spirit and the Body of Christ. And the complete package began at Pentecost.
CONCLUSION These errors - in the basic concept of a dispensation, in exegesis of key passages, in understanding when the mystery was revealed, in the baptizing ministry of the Spirit - are the reasons dispensationalists reject ultradispensationalism. The argument has been based not on the history or practice of the ultradispensational movement but strictly on biblical evidence, for this is the evidence on which any school of thought ought to be judged. And on this basis ultradispensationalism is rejected. It should be clear, too, that, on the basis of the evidence presented, dispensationalism and ultradispensationalism have very basic difference. While it is true that antidispensationalists can level similar charges against both groups, that does not make the teaching of both groups the same. After all, one can level quite similar charges against liberals adn Barthians, but that hardly makes liberalism and neoorthodocy similar doctrinal systems. The same is true of dispensationalism and ultradispensationalism.
WHEW! Good thing I can type fast or that would have taken all day! Hope this helps someone.
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/2/2001 9:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks for the info Modes. I used to be part of an ultradispensationalist group and all doctrine was hinged on a poor interpretation of Acts 28:28. A very ambiguous passage to interpret Scripture on! I came across this book Dispensationalism by Ryrie when I was trying to figure out why I was believing these things. Not only did it help me see the inherent errors of Ultradispensationalism, but also of Dispensationalism in general! It also led me back into my calvinistic Baptist roots, which led me into questioning that which led me here!
Kyle Essary
P.S. Modes, I just went up to my bookstore and ordered Fuller's book. I talked to one of my friends up there who said it was in the top 5 books he had ever read. I am really looking forward to it now.
Edited by - Kyle Essary on 11/02/2001 9:44:44 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/2/2001 4:31 PM (GMT -6) |   | Kyle, thank you VERY MUCH for the Ryrie quote!!!
I have hesitated answering the questions that I posed for myself above, mainly becasue I got the feeling that any answers would not be fairly heard.
But the quote above (and the portion below) answer the issue well. Maybe that will let it lie!? quote: Ryrie's discussion on Ultradispensationalism which raises some pretty good objections from the classical dispensationalist teaching:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ERRORS OF ULTRADISPENSATIONALISM . . . . Erroneous Concept of a Dispensation . . . . Ultradispensationalists fail to recognize the difference between the progress of doctrine as it was during the time of revelation and the representation of it in the writing of the Scripture. On this point Thomas D. Bernard has well observed,
There would be a difference between the actual course of some important evterprise - say of a military campaign, for instance - and the abbreviated narrative, the selected documents, and the well-considered arrangement, by which its conductor might make the plan and execution of it clear to others. In such a case the man who read would have a more perfect understanding of the mind of the actor and the author than the man who saw; he would have the whole course of things mapped out for him on the true principles of order
The distinguishable feature of this economy is the formation of the church, which is Christ's Body. This is the work of God; therefore, the question that decides the beginning of this dispensation is, When did God begin to do this? not, When did man understand it? Only by consulting the completed revelation can we understand that God began to do this work on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 1:5; 11:15-16; 1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 1:18). Therefore, whether Peter and the others understood it then does not determine the beginning of the dispensation. Since the distinguishable feature of the present dispensation is the formation of the church and since the church began at Pentecost, there has been only one economy from Pentecost to the present. The ultradispensationalist can only offer the distinguishing feature of a Jewish church as over against a Gentile church, which is the Body of Christ, but such a distinction has no validity because there are Jews in today's Gentile church (even if it did not begin until after Pentecost) and because the baptism of the Spirit occured in Jerusalem at Pentecost. Thus, the same economy has been operative since the Day of Pentecost.
================================================================ But I still want a response to my "CALLING ALL DISPENSATIONALISTS":
Do you then mean to say that 1 & 2 Peter and James and 1,2,3 John were only written to Jewish believers, who were under this different dispensation than you and me?
=================================================================
Here is an earlier thought/question/challenge that deserves an answer:
1way....You haven't even BEGUN to say what the significance of the term "son of David" means! And you seem above to think that you are through! Why?
Has you pre-assigned system put horse-blinders on your attention?
The term Son of Man and son of God are a matched set. That should be a key to understanding the texts up a bit in your post--rather than to have to assign
them their own separate treatment in a "dispensation."
You seem to lack the real overview, replacing it with an artificial one--as you described.
In the process you may have done what some Openness folks get accused of -- CREATING GOD IN YOUR OWN IMAGE.
Further, seem to me that you were not careful in your post.
quote: Ro 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
quote: So we see that Jesus is called to son of David because that is His earthly lineage and strongly signifies how it was that God prophetically witnessed about Jesus way back in the OT.
quote: Mt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him `Lord,' saying: 44 `The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"'? 45 "If David then calls Him `Lord,' how is He his Son?" 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
Pause to consider BOTH what these two (2) terms mean, The Son of David/Son of Man and Son of God, for BOTH their distinctions and their similarities.
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 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/2/2001 4:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | biblicalanswers.com/bookreview.htm
This is a book review on Bob's website of Bob's book The BIG Difference Between the Two Gospels. The part I noticed was that this:
quote: The last chapters deal with the general Hebrew-Christian or Circumcision Books of the New Testament in order, Hebrews, James, First Peter (which he calls Third Peter), Second Peter, First John, Second and Third John, Revelation and Jude
Circumcision books? This seems to tie into what you were saying POW. Hebrew Christian or Gentile Christian what is the difference?
Ephesians 2:11-13 seems to imply that the "Circumcision" are not in Christ. And also Galatians 3:23-29 imply that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles in Christ. BOB, please take note of this thread and respond!
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  1way Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 299 | Posted 11/3/2001 3:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | Kyle - You can't see the forest because of the trees. Set down your microscope for a while, and pick up a wide angle lens for a complimentary broadening experience. Hopefully, that way when you need your microscope, at least you'll be more able to figure out where and how the details are supposed to fit in.
I once did a very interesting informal sort of study and found that Paul spoke about various synonymous phrases, such as
circumcision and uncircumcision,
Jew and gentile,
under the law and not under the law, etc. etc. etc.
There was perhaps over 50 separate occurrences. It is an overwhelming common theme with Paul to consistently bring up the differences between these two basic groups, yet most Christians subjectively eclecticise and self amalgamate the various circumcision and uncircumcision parts of the Bible, as though they are all synonymous. They absolutely are not, that is why God had Paul call so much attention to these differences. Now, "IF", the nation of Israel had nationally obeyed God, and exhibited faith in Him, THEN your eclectic tendency would not have been a problem. However, God drastically altered His previously intended course of action, the Godly national preference program with Israel has been temporarily suspended, so body of Christ members are dully warned to keep their ears to the teachings that was purposed specifically for our dispensation. (i.e. the uncircumcision writings of our one single apostle, Paul.)
It was Paul who penned, in Christ there is no more Jew and gentile, slave nor freeman. etc. etc. etc.
And, ,,, it was Paul who cited Peter (one of the inner three, spirit indwelled apostle of God) for with doing and inciting gospel associated hypocrisy! "Because of what" -- I loudly ask?
Because of his, ,,, (anti-social) table manners, for crying out loud.
Paul was not hypocritical to his own words, there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile "in Christ", "in this dispensation". But you will not be able to make any sense of all this, if you continue to feel content at just examining so many individual details. You will have to end up getting a proper general overview of the Bible in order to accurately understanding the Bible, and what we are talking about. As I have demonstrated with Jesus about the son of David issue, and as you folks keep neglecting, the wider context is just that important.
"If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/3/2001 4:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | So if I have to be a dispensationalist to understand anything, then please convice me why I should interpret the Bible in that way?
I lived Acts 28 dispensationalism for 2 years. I daily broke bread and studied for hours on end with a group of my friends. Whenever I "broke fellowship" with that Acts 28 group, I was immediately labled a heretic, apostate and anti-christ even though I never said a thing. Anyone like myself who disagreed with them must have lost their "salvation of the soul" and must be "destined for the outer darkness." I know I shouldn't have let those old emotions out on you but I did. That is why I edited that other post to get rid of the "holier than thou" stuff. This quote just brought back some bad memories since I assumed that you believe that anything but dispensationalism is manmade.
quote: place manmade reasoning over God's word = leans towards idolatry, apostasy, false doctrine, etc.
Forgive me, now please try to sell me on dispensationalism 
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/3/2001 6:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Ironic! Don't you think it is ironic, 1way?
Over on the Baptism thread you just got done lecturing me on how the differences in Son of Man and Son of God were so slight (Straining at gnats" you called it.) as to not be worth mentioning. you didn't even notice the difference in the verses you'd quoted.
BUT, that is a HUGE difference. Christ is BOTH of these, Son of Man/David and Son of God; and it is because He is both that he is Christ. he is the Theanthropos, God-man. That is not gnat sized.
You badgered Kyle (Can you be more polite?) about "yet most Christians subjectively eclecticise [sic] and self amalgamate the various circumcision and uncircumcision parts of the Bible, as though they are all synonymous" over his saying things concerning Christ being the unification of that which was fractured in the fall. Christ is SAVIOR! He is the unity of the division of male and female outlined in the curse in Genesis. He is the savior of the whole world. He is the fulfillment of both the law and the prophets. READ Christ's sermon in his home town. (Lk 4:24-27) Do you accept CHRIST's own commentary on scripture? Surely you all have twisted all the very wonderful passages in the Prophets to fit into your neat little boxes. Christ is the savior of all. The "gnat" sized difference between God and Man in your objection is the profoundest thing of all. We need to see that difference first; and then we must see how God is addressing that need.
Chosen versus Goyem is a difference that needed Addressing. Christ did it!
He became ours, for all of us. And He will be all in all.
Lots of this started with the very unusual practice of your of not baptizing with water. What makes me wonder so much is that normal churches practice baptism AND know that it is the Spirit that fits us into Christ. normally this is not seen as a problem. I think that the reason for this is that the tension between our old (fallen) and new (redeemed) selves is so obvious. What more natural practice could there be (Have ANY of you all even explained what practice you replaced baptism with???) than to model on Christ's "fulfilling all righteousness" (as HE told John) and know that by our being buried with Christ in the likeness of his death the Spirit raises us up in His resurrection. Since we ARE Physical as well as spiritual having BOTH real water and the Holy Spirit be part of this all does not present any feeling of discomfort to most of us.
THAT raises the issue of the Virgin Birth.
Make up with Kyle. He seems like a very nice guy!
Watch out for me. I'm beginning to wonder whether you believe in the Virgin Birth. Now way will I accuse you of anything! But I am beginning to wonder. The Virgin Birth is not an issue of whether you believe in miracles. It is a matter of whether you believe that Christ, more than just being human (God could have created another human--even suggested the possibility to Moses, and to Noah.), Christ took on OUR flesh. That "fallen" stuff, that suffers. The Son assumed, by the Holy Spirit, Mary's flesh. Boy, you sure were reluctant to connect Jesus to David in any solid way on the Baptism/Salvation thread. That is what makes me take a cautionary view of what I don't know about you yet. The division between physical and spiritual in the baptism matter would parallel a dualism of distancing Christ from our fallen flesh. Dualisms like that are fairly common. How do I know that your sect does not do that sort of thing.
I'm serious. quote: Ro 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. ------------------------------------------------------ 1way: V.3 speaks of Jesus as being in the blood line of David. The way that David, by the spirit, called his quote unquote son "Lord", is because of two things. First, Jesus Christ was obviously not his personal son, Jesus is his son by way of promise and extended family, very extended. Perhaps that was among God's greatest honor, to portray and show honor and likeness to particular people like David (a type of Christ) speaking of them as in this case, owing Christ's (sonship) lineage to David. So Christ was his son in an extended and more less figurative fashion[u/].
Secondly, and more importantly, David, by the spirit, called his "son" "Lord", because the Christ is God. Christ's true father is none other than God the Father, it is not literally David, it is only figuratively David.A truth I don't think you are objecting to. So both aspects were alluded to in Mt, Jesus' humanity and His divinity, and Roman's does the same, no switching going on, just consistency. So I fail to see your seemingly invented switch. Please explain.
I'm not "switching" 1way. I'm emphasizing BOTH at the expense of neither!!!
Are you venturing into heresy??? Is Christ only "figuratively" your Savior? Is he only "figuratively" identical in his humanity. Was Mary only "figuratively" the Mother of God? Did one of the Trinity only "figuratively" die? Was Christ only "figuratively" dead? Was the resurrection only "figurative"
Where does the slippery slope begin?
Similarly, Kyle's mentioning Jew and Greek is not an opportunity to eliminate either.
===================
AND..........
I've got to add my total agreement with Modes on the below, and mild surprise to Greg's statement. quote: 2. Greg asked if I count the Old and New Testaments as two different dispensations. No, I do not. But that is another question. Salvation has always been through grace by faith in Jesus Christ, either through anticipation or fulfillment of the pertinent promise. Paul's argument regarding Abraham's faith being reckoned as righteousness is adequate demonstration for me to hold to this view.
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 11/03/2001 11:46:42 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  1way Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 299 | Posted 11/4/2001 3:45 PM (GMT -6) |   | Kyle - Thanks for the kind words, and forgiveness(?), well, ok, if I have to. (smile) I found no real need for that, plenty of good graces cover with plenty to spare. And thank you for doing likewise towards me in general as well. I had no idea about your past, and I am sorry to hear about what happened (that sounded pretty harsh), and for abruptly raising such difficult memories.
I'm not sure at all what you want to know from me then. The way you spoke, you have already studied and rejected the vast majority of what I would espouse, there really is not much difference between Act's 9 and Act's 28 dispensationalism. Just to clarify, I'm not KJV only, and find that Bullinger and that camp has some serious problems. I also differ quite a bit with historical dispensationalism specifically I am zero point Calvinist. The open view (or free will theism) leaves no room for such notions as the (classic) Calvinistic understanding of God's foreknowledge (it says that the future is closed to uncertainties and contingencies). This whole idea is akin to Greek mythology and philosophy's counterpart of fate, or destiny. I realize that they claim that God is in sovereign control and all that. So, what is your take on the open/closed views?
As to dispensationalism, how well do you understand it all? What is your biggest objection or most clear problem you have with the system? What steps have you personally taken to solve this issue or issues prior to judging against it? What did others suggest, and what was your findings?
"If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  might-be-don Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 830 | Posted 11/5/2001 4:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | 1way says:
quote: I also differ quite a bit with historical dispensationalism specifically I am zero point Calvinist.
Help my ignorance, what is a zero point Calvinist? What makes them different from other Calvinists?
peace and love, don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/5/2001 6:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | Well, here is the quick answer to one of your questions 1way. I don't have the time for the dispensational one yet, but hopefully tomorrow I can post it. As for the open/determined question, I am struggling with this one because from my Hebrew classes and personal translating, I can clearly see that parts of the future are open, but still some parts are clearly closed. I guess that puts me in the Open camp, but I'm still doing lotsa reading and study to decide where I fit in.
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/5/2001 12:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | THIS IS IN HONOR OF KYLE'S INVITING ABBIE TO POST HERE.
quote: quote: POW, I would gladly discuss my statement about salvation with you. I would not believe what I do if I did not think that God has at times changed the way He has worked with men. So it is probably impossible to keep dispensationalism out of the conversation. I do understand the necessity of keeping discussions on topic and therefore will try to limit what I say to what is relevant to the topic. I hope you don't mind my handling it in that way. In His joy, Abbie
Abbie. That would be great to discuss.
On a practical side, since there is much to do around her this week, how about following up on Kyle's invitation to the "Church...with Paul" thread? Please post, if you wish, and I'll check it out. But my own initiation on the Christology theme will have to wait a bit--but not too long.
That is fine with me if Dispensationalism comes up. Things overlap. AND I hope you will understand if, now that I have read up on that tradition, that I will not try to fit what I am saying onto a Dispensationalistic foundation. Rather, I will/should try to make the foundation which my posts build upon be evident to your eyes; sympathetic or not.
Maybe we can show all how that is done--with civility, acuity, and creativity.
Christology is what interests me. Let the overlap fall where it may.
May I ask that you begin with what I quoted of you above. "Salvation has always been by faith (Heb 11:6), but it has not always been by faith in Christ." If that pulling of a single sentence distorts your meaning you can proceed from there. to me, saying that salvation is ever, even from before the foundation of the world--a very long time!--IN CHRIST is the worst form of heresy. But I'll not call you that! You may begin with the knowledge that I will read carefully and not rush to judgment!!! And if it seems "off" I will ask questions. (If I don't, call me on that.)
Your turn.
P.S. If you post there please leave a short note here to point the way.
PotOnWheel
(Gotta leave with this one--you find the citation: "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me." Jesus--Creator, Redeemer and Friend)
GO FOR IT ABBIE!
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 11/05/2001 5:25:50 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Abbie Registered Member
 Date Joined Nov 2001 Total Posts : 7 | Posted 11/6/2001 7:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | I think you may have misunderstood some of what I was saying. Men have always been saved on the basis of Christ's death, but they have not always known that was the basis of their salvation.
1. Salvation has always been on the basis of Christ's death. Heb 9:15 says that Christ's death redeemed men from the sins under the first covenant, the Law. Heb 9:25-26 states that Christ did not have to suffer continually from the foundation of the world. He suffered once for all sin.
2. While God knew that Christ was reason He could forgive sin, God did not show men the basis of His forgiveness until after Christ's resurrection. Peter wrote that God had determined before the foundation of the world that Christ would be the sacrifice for sin but did not make that known to men until the last times (I Pet 1:18-20). Paul wrote that in the past God had passed over men's sins but "at this time" Christ's death demonstrates how God could be righteous in doing that, how He could be both just and the Justifier (Rom 3:24-26).
3. Not even God's prophets and apostles understood that Christ would die for their sins. It is true that Isaiah prophesied that God's Servant would bear the punishment for man's sin (Isa 53:5-6, 10-12), but Peter says that the prophets did not understand the prophesies the Spirit gave them concerning Christ's death (I Pet 1:10-12). Christ told the disciples many times that He would die (Mk 9:11-13; Lk 9:22; 17:25), but they still did not understand (Lk 18:31-34). It wasn't until after Christ's resurrection that they finally understood (Lk 24:25-27, 44-46).
4. Since they did not understand that Christ was going to die, God required that men believe whatever message He gave them to believe. For Noah it was a prediction about a flood (Heb 11:7). For Abraham it was a promise of a son (Rom 4:18-22).
In summary, salvation has always been on the basis of Christ's death and has been through faith but the faith has not always been in Christ's death. If you believe that salvation in the Old Testament was by faith that looked forward to Christ's death, I would be especially interested in you thoughts on Lk 18:31-34; Lk 24:25-27, 44-46; and I Pet 1:10-12. Thanks!
In His love, Abbie
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/6/2001 12:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | Dear Abbie,
I'm glad that the pointedness of my question/issue-raising did no put a "chill" on your answer. You did a nice job. It seems that in the ways that matter, that have direct impact, that we agree. Great.
I see a "tradition" in how you use scripture like building blocks. That is not as familiar to me; but I do not find it strange. Maybe on the other end of the spectrum I tend, especially due to my learning style and manner of engaging things (I'm an artist) I tend to focus on issues, ideas, and overarching matters. Of course we all do. But please accept this post as I will make general statements first, sometimes, and then add in the details. (broad-brush and then details, as it goes)
With that in mind I go first to the three passages you mentioned. I prepared myself to find "proof-texts", maybe taken out of context, or at least missing some of the overarching theme. But this is not hypothetical. It is you. So lets see what you've left for me. I look forward to it.
quote: Luke 18:31-34 31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 "For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, 33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again." 34 But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.
I doubt that they didn't understand the words. They might have been fatigue-minded--stressed. But I lean here to emphasize the phrasing as if it says: "the disciples [did not] underst[an]d . . . the meaning of this statement . . . [did not] comprehend." I am comfortable with that kind of reading. (I hope you are.) Then I think back to the big-ideas that are useful to me in thinking and remembering. Big ideas, as they are remembered in my head, with my kind of thinking, often come in sets. How to draw a face is one of those big ideas: I remember a whole set of different faces from which I can mix and match parts successfully. For the what the twelve did not "comprehend" I think of the verbal form of parables that Jesus used, which are kind of hidden and kind of disclosed--depending... (Timmer in "Four-Dimensional Jesus" says of parables: "Parables don't point to a heavenly world beyond this world; they point to a new possibility in this world. . .seek to open our eyes to the presence of God's kingdom right in the world of our everyday experiences.") What Jesus was saying, of course, was not a parable. But parable is one kind of thing that by analogy helps me begin to approach the verse. Jesus was telling them a lot of "data": the Son of Man will be . . .handed over . . . mocked, mistreated, spit-upon, scourged, kill[ed], will rise-again. I loose track of names if I see/here more than three at a time! Same with places and directions to turn! Especially with my own learning style I would have to be already familiar with most of the individual bits of information before even beginning to assimilate them all at once; let alone understand how they all go together into one whole. The travelers on the road to Emmaus (sp?) had a "tour-guide" to pretty much the same information. On the bare surface of things they at least had lived parts of the story.
But I think that there is more. I just do think that. Something made it so that Enoch could walk with God and be no more (go be with God). Something made it so that Simeon could say in faith, in spiritual recognition: "Lord let now thou Thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word, Fro mine eyes have seen they salvation. Which Thou hast prepared before they face of all people. A light to enlighten the Gentiles, and to be the glory of Thy People Israel." Something let these men SEE through the surface of the plain, and not discounting it--as Timmer says of parables above!--but revealing its MEANING. Sometimes prophecy shows what things mean. (not just future-predicting) The twelve were not ready to understand! The data was all correct, and not even in code. had they been ready, as Simeon was, they would have been up to speed, on the band wagon, etc.
In like fashion, while I probably don't disagree with what you posted--nice job--I, how should I say it?--maybe go a bit further. Where you say, "God did not show men the basis of His forgiveness until after Christ's resurrection", agreeing, I also add that the basis WAS in prophecy--for us to see pretty plainly now. And even more--the "meaning" or significance was pretty well understood by those "with ears to hear, hearts..." at the time. Noah knew both that God would save him using an ark, AND that God is "Saving". Joseph did not know "data"--but his faith upon which he instructed to being his bones back went beyond data. The journey of inner and outer life taught him more than just an external salvation. The emphasis on bones says that to me, too. The widow that Elijah/Elisha (I'm that bad at names.) helped out with non-ending oil is a "sign", as is the whole story of Ruth. Next verse. What will I find?
quote: Luke 24:25-27, 44-46 25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
Well, how did that happen. covered it already? The "slow of heart to believe" fits with what I've said already. you can agree or disagree with me, but the phrase "He opened their minds" says to me more than just cognitive information. I tend to see the Spirit working with Christ--hand in hand. I see Christ helping their minds. That is the most easy way for me to read it.
Next.
quote: I Pet 1:10-12. 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.
I pull out two things: first, "the grace that would come to you"; and second, "what person/time . . . was indicat[ed]". That scripture confesses that what WAS told was "the Spirit of Christ . . . predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow" No small stuff. But the two I'm pulling out make a nice comparison. The first is general, or broad, but powerful. I don't think that God the Son (I agree with Bob Hill, or rather he agrees with the Church Fathers, that the Logos/Son is all over the OT!) was less than forward about the degree of grace God's mercy in Christ has in store for us, right from the promise that the woman would "crush the serpent's head" onward. But, as in the second part, the particular details were not forthcoming; even though the prophets REALLY wanted to know!
Maybe we agree with all this. Maybe I crossed some "Dispensationalist tradition" line and committed some (unknown to me) "error.
You have been fair to me thus far. I look forward to your post.
I might also take the statement you did before, from which I pulled that one sentence, and give you my inner-dialog while reading that.
But dinner for my kids is cooking.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/6/2001 4:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | Sorry 1way, but I am time crunched again, but will try to get that answer up ASAP! Until then, I will only be able to throw in little thoughts (which were a part of my decision).
When interpreting Scripture we must remember that there is a progressive revelation going on. For instance, I interpret (although some will probably disagree) every reference in which Peter speaks to Israel at the beginning of Acts (until ch. 10) as being a lack of knowledge of God's revelation (Acts 2:36, 4:10 et. al.). Peter didn't yet comprehend that the new covenant included the Gentiles. It was obvious that it was also for the gentiles, otherwise the Ethiopian Eunich (pre-Pauline conversion) would not have been saved. Acts 10:15 "What God has made clean, do not call common." This is where I believe God reveals to Peter his misunderstanding, so that in v. 34 Peter comes to the realization that Gentiles are a part of the new covenant. Did God change his administration at this point or did Peter lack the realization of something that already was? I clearly think Scripture supports the latter.
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
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