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Zach Schmidt
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Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 1

Posted 11/13/2001 11:23 AM (GMT -6)

Hi all,
I am writing a paper on whether or not Christians can "lose" their salvation; that is, whether we can have once been saved but later turn away from Christ and thus forfeit our salvation. Many scholarly articles I have read express that true Christians can never fall away because they are sustained by God, not by themselves. If one falls away, he or she was never truly Christ's. However, I believe that God has given us the freedom to choose or reject Him, and this freedom continues after we have devoted our lives to Him. It is not His will that any should perish, but the choice of Christ or ourselves is ultimately up to us.
Just looking for some thoughts on the issue.

-Zach

Kyle Essary
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 11/13/2001 5:44 PM (GMT -6)

It is almost impossible to find someone who can claim that they have never come in contact with someone in the church who they completely believed was saved, but then later went on to reject Christ either by word or action. For instance, Bob Dylan confessed with his mouth that Christ was his Lord, and appeared to believe it with all of his heart. Yet now he has rejected all things Christian and returned to a kabbalistic form of Judaism. Some preachers will tell you that he was never "saved" to begin with, that it was just the outward appearance, others will tell you that he was but then lost it. I think it is basically semantics. Personal faith is such a subjective thing that I don't believe you can truly "know" if it is possible for someone to lose their salvation. I mean realistically how can we be saved now? We are saved from a life of sin now, but are we saved from eternal damnation? I don't think that is a reality until it actually happens. As Christians we can be assured that we "will" be saved from eternal damnation because we trust in the promises of God to save us. The problem with someone who "loses" their salvation is that they have clearly lost the NOW part of salvation, i.e. a life of sin. Would they have been saved if they died before rejecting Christ? I don't know and it doesn't matter, because that's not the way it happened. I think too many times we get into arguments over things which are not realities, where we can NEVER know the answer. Theoretically, I don't know if people can technically be saved now, receive the Holy Spirit, and then reject Christ and "lose" their salvation. I don't think that really matters though, because someone who has rejected Christ in action and by word could probably care less, it is only us INSIDE the church who seem to care about our friends who have turned away. It is such a subjective matter, I don't really think there is a way to tell. Sorry to ramble so much, hehe. I am tired and tend to ramble when I am tired, hehe.

Any more thoughts people?

Kyle Essary

Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198

Posted 11/13/2001 6:21 PM (GMT -6)

When we recieve Christ we are given a new nature, and like the old nature we don't really have the freedom to reject it. Someone who has sinned and fallen away cannot simply say "i'm tired of this, go away sin" and have the sin leave. Sometimes things are just plain out of our hands. The choice to recieve Christ is up to us, but we can't reverse the effects of the cross and bring ourselves back into a sinful nature.

In His Grip,
Matt

"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28

Edited by - Triskal on 11/13/2001 11:22:18 PM

might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 11/14/2001 2:53 AM (GMT -6)

I feel like this about it.

We either have 'eternal' life or we don't. If we have 'eternal' life and can somehow lose it, then let's not call what we have now 'eternal' life. Let's call it a promise of 'eternal' life.

Although I will admit some difficulty with this passage:

Jude 1:20-22 Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/14/2001 5:23 AM (GMT -6)

Zach-

I may represent the minority opinion on the forum, but I understand apostasy to present a real threat to genuine believers. If you’re doing a paper on it then check out Robert Shank’s Life in the Son. He may provide some food for thought.

I never use the word “lose” to describe what happens to believers who apostatize because it conjures up notions of “misplacing” one’s salvation, as in, “Ooops! Now where did I put my salvation? Guess I ‘lost’ it.” This is definitely not the biblical picture. One doesn’t forfeit such a relationship over night in such a way. Nevertheless, apostasy poses a real threat to believers.

Tom

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 11/14/2001 2:58 PM (GMT -6)

Seems pretty clear to me that Jesus said no one could snatch them out of God's hand...the saved, that is.

Seems Peter made it clear over and over to maintain your faith to the very end - the end being your salvation.

Seems clear, at least to me, that from our human perspective no "Christian" is to EVER play the presumptious game of thinking they can kick back, do nothing and wing it, give up, quit fighting the good fight, etc., without taking the chance of finding out that, as John said, they started out with us but went away from us that it might be made clear they weren't of us.

From God's perspective, I'd say He pretty well knows who's His and who's not - He reads the heart pretty well!! From our perspective, one should fight to the finish!

My thoughts,

Starkman

Edited by - Starkman on 11/14/2001 7:58:59 PM

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 11/19/2001 1:21 PM (GMT -6)

This is not an easy question, because Scripture can be interpreted either as teaching, or denying, eternal security. I’ll review both sides and then give my take.

No Eternal Security
Many Scriptures suggest a person can loose their salvation. For example, Jesus taught that "the one who endures to the end will be saved" (Mt 10:22; cf. 24:13)., "If we endure, we will also reign with him," but "if we deny him, he will also deny us" (2 Tim 2:12). Paul assures the Christians at Colossi that they shall be "holy and blameless and irreproachable" before the Lord "provide [they] continue securely established and steadfast in the faith" (Col 1:22-23). If they don’t continue "established and steadfast," they clearly will not be "holy" before the Lord.

Similarly, the possibility of falling away from God’s grace seems to be implied in the many warnings we find in Scripture not to fall away. To cite a few examples, the author of Hebrews warned his readers not to be like Esau and sell their birthright, for later Esau "wanted to inherit the blessings, but was rejected for he found no chance to repent…" (Heb 12:15-16). Peter warns of false teachers who "deny the Master who brought them" and thus bring "swift destruction on themselves" (2 Pet 2:1). Some claim that people who fall away never were "truly saved" in the first place. In this passage, however, Peter explicitly claims that these teachers denied the Master "who bought them."

Peter provides an even more forceful teaching – and warning – on the conditional nature of salvation when he writes:

…if, after [people] have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them (2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Peter suggests it is possible for people who have been made righteous "through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" to later reject this salvation and end up in state that is worse than the one they were initially saved out of. If it’s never possible for a Christian to lose their salvation, its not clear what Peter is trying to teach us in this passage. Nor is it clear what Peter intends to teach when he later warns, "beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless… ut grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 3:-17-18). If people who are under grace and who know the Lord can’t be ‘"carried away," what’s the point of warning them about this?

Also, consider the Lord’s warnings to the church of Laodicea in Revelation, chapter 3. Though these Christians were once on fire for the Lord, they had grown lukewarm. Consequently, the Lord was ready to "spit [them] out of the mouth" (3:16). He "[stood] at the door, knocking," for he wanted to renew his fellowship with these former disciples (3:20). The Lord promised them that, "to the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne…" (3:21). But this promise was clearly conditioned upon whether or not people conquered. Those who abandoned their walk would be rejected and would have their names "blotted out" of the book of life (Rev. 3:5). Throughout Scripture the "book of life" was a register of all citizens in the kingdom community. Names could be added or deleted from this register, depending on the state of their heart (e.g Ex. 32:32-33; Ps 69:28; cf. Rev 22:19). We submit that the warning to have one’s name "blotted out" of the book of life, as well as the warnings about being "spit out" of the Lord’s mouth, have no meaning if in fact believers are eternally secure.

Another way Scripture seems to teach that salvation is conditioned upon our continual faith and obedience is that it gives us examples of people who fell away from God’s grace. For example, Saul once was a person who knew God and walked with God. God was with him and he even prophesied the word of God (I Sam 10:6-7). Indeed, God promised Saul that he would bless him and his descendents, if Saul would remain faithful to him (I Sam 13:13). Unfortunately, Saul rebelled against God and became so wicked that God regretted making him king (I Sam. 15:11, cf. 35). Saul became an example of someone who once enjoyed God’s favor but who eventually was rejected by God because of his own evil choices.

The history of Israel also illustrates the conditional nature of salvation. Paul taught that Israel as a nation was "broken off" of the vine while Gentiles who believed were "grafted in their place" (Rom 11:17). If they were "broken off," Israel’s relationship with the Lord was clearly not eternally secure. Neither is the relationship between the Lord and the newly "grafted in" Gentiles, however. For Paul warns, " If God did not spare the natural branches [the nation of Israel], perhaps he will not spare you" (11:21). In both cases, God’s promises are conditioned upon the response of the people. When believers grow hard in their heart and become unbelievers, they are rejected.

Along similar lines, Paul says to those who "want to be justified by the law" that they have "cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4). At one time they were "running well" : Paul seems to assume they were true believers. Now, however, they are not "obeying the truth" (5:7). In this respect they are like Hymenaeus and Philetus who have "swerved from the truth" by denying the future resurrection from the dead (2 Tim 2:17-18). Such warnings imply that it is possible to fall from grace and swerve from the truth and thereby forfeit your place in the eternal kingdom (cf. Rev 22:19).

Undoubtedly the strongest and most frequently misunderstood warning not to fall away comes from the author of Hebrews. He writes:

[I]t is impossible to restore again to repentance, those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and holding him up to contempt (Heb 6:4-6).

While much can be debated about this passage, it seems at the very least to teach that a person can be saved and yet "fall away."

Believers ARE Eternally Secure.
Many other passages, however, seem to teach that believers are eternally secure. " Jesus said, [T]his is the will of him who sent me" he says, "that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (Jn 6:39). It seems that none of those that are "drawn" by the Father and "given" to Christ (Jn 6:35-44) can fail to be raised up "on the last day."

Paul puts the matter in even more forceful terms when he writes:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son… And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified (Rom 8:29-30).

It seems that when someone believes, God predestines them to be conformed to the image of his Son. Hence, one can’t be truly saved and fail to eventually be conformed to Christ’s image.

Similarly, Paul proclaims that nothing "in all creation [is]…able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:39, cf. 33-38). If nothing can separate us from Christ, it seems our union with Christ is secure.

Along similar lines, Paul confesses to the Philippians, "I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work among you will bring it to completion by the day of Jesus Christ " (Phil. 1:6). Similarly, Paul prays that the Thessalonians will be entirely sanctified, adding that, "[t]he one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this" (1 Thess 5:24). Our continual grow, it seems, is as much dependent on God’s power as was our original salvation. And, for this reason, it is just as secure.

Peter teaches the same truth in a different way when he proclaims that God has given believers "an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for [us], who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" ( I Pet 1:4- 5). Jude speaks in similar terms when he refers to believers as "those who are called, who are beloved in God the Father and kept safe for Jesus Christ" (Ju 1). Later Jude prays: "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing"…(vs.24). It seems our inheritance is "imperishable": it cannot perish or fade. And the reason is because it’s preservation doesn’t depend on our power, but on God’s power. It is "kept in heaven" as we are "protected by the power of God" and "kept safe for Jesus Christ." If our safety, protection and perseverance is up to God, it seems that our destiny is absolutely secure. Our salvation is indeed "imperishable."

Finally, one could conclude that believers are eternally secure because we receive ETERNAL life from God. Jesus taught that "…anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life" (Jn 5:24, cf. 3:36). Jesus says believers have already been given eternal life. In the words of Peter, they have "been born anew, not of perishable but of imperishable seed, through the living and enduring word of God" (I Pet 1:23). Eternal and imperishable life isn’t a future hope for believers: it is a present reality! This is why Jesus can further say that believers have already "passed from death to life" and don’t have to worry about coming "under judgment."

Jesus develops the theme still further in a different context when he says,

My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand (Jn 10:27-29).

The sheep receive the uncreated and unending life of God. For this reason Jesus promises them "they will never perish" and no one will snatch them away. The gift of salvation and the call of God on their life is "irrevocable" (Rom 11:29). Through the blood of Jesus, believers are reconciled to God once and for all. In the words of the author of Hebrews, Jesus’ sacrifice has "perfected for all time those who are sanctified…" (Heb 10:14).

Conclusion
We see there are strong passages on both sides of this issue. However we put these passages together, it seems we should all be able to agree on this:

a) Believers who show any signs of life God should hear the assurance passages and be confident God is holding onto them.

b) Nonbelievers and backsliders who are rejecting God should hear the warning passages and not hold to a false idea that they can be assured of salvation even though they are living in opposition to God.

I personally think the best way to put together the apparently contradictory teaching of Scripture is to conclude that all believers can theoretically backslide, but our goal should be to arrive at the point where we know that we know that we know that we will, by grace, hang onto Christ forever. The probationary period CAN and SHOULD come to an end. I personally think it IS possible for believers to divorce the Lord who saved them. But I also think that as we grow, we can and should come to the place where we know that we know that we know that we never will.

Hope this helps more than it confuses.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 11/20/2001 1:42 AM (GMT -6)

Arthur Pink put it like this... (paraphrased) The warnings are a fence that assures believers, those that hear and obey, they will not perish.

As we approach the fence we will turn back to the Lord if we are truely His.As He says,"My sheep hear My voice" .

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 11/20/2001 3:48 AM (GMT -6)

Hey Greg, I know you really want to stick with scripture on this and indeed you should, but I think it would be good to put some of this in its perspective framework as well, which is what I think Zach is looking for. According to I. Howard Marshall, "...the doctrine of perserverance can be regarded as a collary of the doctrine of the predestination of particular individuals to salvation." That is, "...based on Augustine's rigorous doctrine of double predestination to salvation and damnation. God's purpose was to save a certain fixed number of men, the 'elect', and it was in the nature of things utterly impossible for any of the elect to fall away completely from Him and be finally lost, even if they might temporarily fall into sin. The grace of perseverance guaranteed their ultimate salvation. Any who professed faith and yet fell away into apostasy could not have belonged to the 'elect' and were therefore never truly converted. (My comments: No wonder Shank castigated Calvinists for their pride, like they purport to know the mind of God on such matters!) In effect, then Augustine distinguished three classes of men: the elect who truly believed and received the grace of perserverance; the non-elect who never even professed belief; and the non-elect who professed belief but were not true believers(because they did not recieve the divine gift of faith) and who must inevitabley fall away and not receive final salvation because they did not receive the grace of perserverance."

In other words, I think you should have provided more of the theological framework from which one moves from predestination toward perservance instead of simplifying it in the black and white, pro/con fashion the way you did.

Brandon
I know I'm gonna hear 'bout it from the Doc. Go easy on me will ya?

Cool?

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 11/20/2001 3:59 AM (GMT -6)

By the way, the non-elect who never even professed belief; and the non-elect who professed belief but were not true believers?

I say they are the same. Maybe there are only two classes of men rather than three.

Brandon

Edited by - BBBCanada on 11/20/2001 09:00:04 AM

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/20/2001 12:06 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
In effect, then Augustine distinguished three classes of men: the elect who truly believed and received the grace of perserverance; the non-elect who never even professed belief; and the non-elect who professed belief but were not true believers…

This is exactly why strict Calvinism destroys assurance. If all occurrences of apostasy are merely proof that one was never genuinely regenerate to begin with, then one can not now know whether she is genuinely born-again or whether she only mistakenly believes herself to be born-again. The world is full of people who once believed themselves to be born-again based on what they believed was the genuine inward witness of God’s Spirit as well as on the evidence of a radically changed lifestyle and who subsequently fell away. If we’re going to insist that such people proved that they were never genuinely saved, then assurance of salvation is impossible. It would be impossible to know for certain at any given moment whether you were one of those who incorrectly believed themselves to be regenerate or not. All the evidences, existential and otherwise, are all there, but you might not be a child of God.

This is why I suggest that the only right one has for believing herself (like the generic language Pia? I’m working on it!) to be saved is present righteousness. Doc calls it “signs of life.” Call it what you want. If you’re on the journey you can rightly believe yourself to be God’s own. If you’re not, you have no basis for knowing that you are. I don’t claim to know where to draw that line. We often doubt, slip back, and struggle. I don’t believe every time we sin we get “resaved.” God forbid. I’m only saying that the line is real and that it can be crossed.

If one wishes to insist that the genuinely regenerate cannot possible forfeit salvation, then there exists (in my mind at least) no convincing explanation for the warning passages. The warnings would presumably work as long as one incorrectly believed apostasy to be a “real possibility.” But once one’s theology was sound, the warnings would lose all effect. (Maybe ignorance IS bliss!

) These passages would fall into the same category open theists constantly use to accuse adherents of EDF of attributing disingenuousness to God, e.g., when God speaks conditionally to Nineveh about impending doom on the supposition that God is eternally certain they’ll repent.

I’d like to think, in agreement with Doc, that in time our wills become increasingly compatibilistic. Apostasy becomes more and more improbable. I’m not sure it ever becomes absolutely impossible.

We’re not shadow boxing. We’re involved in a real war, for our own souls and for those of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Tom

Edited by - tgb on 11/20/2001 5:09:22 PM

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 11/20/2001 2:02 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
This is exactly why strict Calvinism destroys assurance.

and

This is why I suggest that the only right one has for believing herself (like the generic language Pia? I’m working on it!) to be saved is present righteousness. Doc calls it “signs of life.” Call it what you want. If you’re on the journey you can rightly believe yourself to be God’s own. If you’re not, you have no basis for knowing that you are.

Excellent point. Something the writers of the "Grace of God and the Will of Man" write about. Assurance comes not from some spiritual hotline to God, but by living out the Gospel and the fruit of the Spirit exemplified in the Christian's life.

quote:
I don’t claim to know where to draw that line. We often doubt, slip back, and struggle. I don’t believe every time we sin we get “resaved.” God forbid. I’m only saying that the line is real and that it can be crossed.

I wonder if the category is too legalistic. I wonder if it should be more relational.

Brandon

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