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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/24/2001 5:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | "But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God..."
Romans 6:22
The situations around us and the circumstances we are in affect every choice and decision we make. If we are truly slaves to sin, as the Bible claims, how could we ever choose anything but sin? If grace is not irresistable, what compels some to accept salvation and others to reject it? Sinful pride? If we are all slaves to sin, then how is it possible for any of us to be "good enough" to accept salvation while others are "too evil" to surrender to Christ? "Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." Ephesians 2:9. Wouldn't this idea of being not-so-enslaved-to-sin-as-others contradict this idea expressed in Ephesians 2:9?
If we do choose, (as I believe that I believe), does this mean that God calls some people "strongly" enough for them to accept and doesn't call others "strongly" enough for them to see past their sin?
This view may not be all that scriptural as it is philosophical, yet this is an argument posed against me by my many Calvinist friends. What do ya'll think?
--Greg Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
"My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed." -- General Stonewall Jackson | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 11/24/2001 6:10 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree that we are, in and of ourselves, slaves to sin. But I reject the view that this entails that God works some hearts irresistibly, causing them to believe, while he passes by other hearts and leaves them in their damned rebellion.
Whatever our understanding of how we transition from enslaved rebels to saints in Christ, it has to square with the universality of God's love and desire for all to be saved.
Consider this: To say that the work of God is required to enable us to believe is NOT to say that with the work of God we MUST believe. As I read Scripture, it seems to me that God is at work in every heart to get them to yield to his saving presence. As I read Scripture, we ARE able to thwart this process. Scripture testifies over and over to people frustrating and grieving the Holy Spirit and thwarting God's will for their life.
If a person yields, they can only credit the grace of God for working in their hearts to do so.
If a person refuses to yeild, they can only blame themselves.
Consider this analogy (its only an analogy, of course, so you can't press it for details).
Twenty people are in a room filled with speakers (creation). God wants them to hear his beautiful music (salvation). He starts to play the music (natural revelation). We all choose to cup our hands over our ears and sing our own song to ourselves (fall, rebellion, pride, being lord of our own life). God, by his grace, turns the music up louder (sending prophets, etc.). We just sing louder to ourselves (on-going rebellion). God then comes into the room (incarnation) and begins to wrestle our hands away from our ears (Holy Spirit). Now, though all resist, some eventually buckle under God's continued efforts (conversion). But some, remarkably, are able to resist God to the bitter end (God's resistible grace). Indeed, as they resist God they get stronger and stronger -- till God finally gives up on them (damnation).
Now, all who hear the beautiful music must grant that were it not for the ever-persistent grace of God, they would not hear the music. They can hardly take any credit for the fact that now they hear. It is by grace that we are saved, so none can boast.
Those who don't hear the music can only blame themselves.
And so, I suggest, it is with salvation. I can only testify that God's grace has opened my eyes and won over my heart. I know he'd love to do the same for all people. What I don't understand -- "the mystery of iniquity" -- is how and why people refuse his love to the bitter end.
Its just an analogy, but I think it hightlights the things that need to be highlighted. What do you think?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/25/2001 12:07 PM (GMT -6) | | This is a good analogy and it squares with my understanding of scripture. However:
Doc writes:
quote:
What I don't understand -- "the mystery of iniquity" -- is how and why people refuse his love to the bitter end.
This is exactly what I don't understand. If all people are capable of saying no, how is it that some refuse God's grace and others accept it? Are the ones who reject God more enslaved to sin than the rest? I think not. And even if this was true, would it mean that God didn't compel them hard enough?
It may be an unanswerable question, but when a determinist uses this, it really makes me wonder.
--Greg, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
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GODesteem
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 11/26/2001 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Greg! Just a couple of comments:
Greg wrote:
"Whatever our understanding of how we transition from enslaved rebels to saints in Christ, it has to square with the universality of God's love and desire for all to be saved."
My response:
I always wonder about that last phrase; "God's.. desire for all to be saved."
When I read passages like the ones below, I wonder if God has something else in mind?
(1) Luke 10:13 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luke 10:14 "But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you.
Luke 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 10:16 "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."
Luke 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Luke 10:19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.
Luke 10:20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
Luke 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
Luke 10:22 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Luke 10:23 Turning to the disciples, He said privately, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see,
Luke 10:24 for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them."
According to Jesus, the Father has HIDDEN the things of the kingdom of God from the wise and intelligent, and REVEALED them to infants (v. 21). And in this Jesus rejoices -in the Holy Spirit - amazing how all 3 members of the Trinity find pleasure in this freedom of God to reveal Himself! Jesus also discussed His WILL to reveal the Father - Jesus actually makes a choice to whom He wishes to reveal the Father (v. 22). Later Jesus calls the disciples "blessed", because they have the eyes to see, and the ears to hear, the things of the kingdom of God.
(2) Mark 4:9 And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
Mark 4:10 ¶ As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables.
Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
Mark 4:12 so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven."
Here we have Jesus eluding to God's choice in revealing the "mystery of the kingdom of God", in that He later tells His disciples what the parable means! He also speaks of how he chooses to talk in parables SO THAT those "outside" may not hear or understand the truth! How does this square with Jesus own words:
"Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)????
God has a purpose in the hardening, which may include a time for judgement, and may include a part in the overarching plan to bring salvation to all the nations.
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day."
Rom 11:9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
Rom 11:10 "Let their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs forever."
Rom 11:11 ¶ I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!.........
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
Rom 11:27 "This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Rom 11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
Rom 11:35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
Rom 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
In this case, God uses the hardening so that He may show mercy to the Gentiles, and also the Jews. For a time He chooses to "hide" Himself from the Jews, and then He will choose to reveal Himself to the Jews. In the meantime, He has a remnant of people, chosen by grace, which includes those who will make up the "fulness of the Gentiles." In one sense, God holds out His hands to a rebellious people (Rom 10:21 But as for Israel He says, "All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."), but also ordains a hardening that consigns them for a time to disobedience.
Greg wrote:
" Consider this: To say that the work of God is required to enable us to believe is NOT to say that with the work of God we MUST believe. As I read Scripture, it seems to me that God is at work in every heart to get them to yield to his saving presence."
My response:
In light of the above Scriptures, I cannot see how God is at work in EVERY heart to get them to yield to Him.
Greg writes:
"Twenty people are in a room filled with speakers (creation). God wants them to hear his beautiful music (salvation). He starts to play the music (natural revelation). We all choose to cup our hands over our ears and sing our own song to ourselves (fall, rebellion, pride, being lord of our own life). God, by his grace, turns the music up louder (sending prophets, etc.). We just sing louder to ourselves (on-going rebellion). God then comes into the room (incarnation) and begins to wrestle our hands away from our ears (Holy Spirit). Now, though all resist, some eventually buckle under God's continued efforts (conversion). But some, remarkably, are able to resist God to the bitter end (God's resistible grace). Indeed, as they resist God they get stronger and stronger -- till God finally gives up on them (damnation).
Now, all who hear the beautiful music must grant that were it not for the ever-persistent grace of God, they would not hear the music. They can hardly take any credit for the fact that now they hear. It is by grace that we are saved, so none can boast.
Those who don't hear the music can only blame themselves.
And so, I suggest, it is with salvation. I can only testify that God's grace has opened my eyes and won over my heart. I know he'd love to do the same for all people. What I don't understand -- "the mystery of iniquity" -- is how and why people refuse his love to the bitter end.
Its just an analogy, but I think it hightlights the things that need to be highlighted. What do you think?"
My response:
I know you didn't want us to press for details about the analogy, so I will only make one comment. You stated:
"God then comes into the room (incarnation) and begins to wrestle our hands away from our ears (Holy Spirit)."
How is this not infringing on the free-will of the person? If the person, by choice, continues to cover their ears (and has begun to smash in the speakers), how can God do anything to "physically" pull their hands away? My point is simply that you are actually pretty much articulating the idea of irresistable grace, though you include a caption stating that God does this to everyone, and some keep their hands over their ears. God chooses to reveal Himself to whomever He wants, and He removes the resistance, so that the person now begins to trust in all that God promises to be for them in Jesus (through repentance by faith). However, in your analogy, you have God actively "removing the resistance", just in a series of successive attempts, rather than one completely effective attempt. I would think that for your analogy to avoid any "force", you would have to have God turn up the volume on the speakers, so loud, that the person would so tire of holding their hands on their ears that they would drop them to their side and hear the revelation of God, without any distractions. Just a suggestion...
Benjamin Musclow
God loves Himself more than anything... He is our greatest treasure!
Edited by - godesteem on 11/26/2001 10:11:02 AM
Edited by - godesteem on 11/26/2001 10:12:58 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/26/2001 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Benjamin, regarding your treatment of Romans 11, I think it is possible, probable, and plausable to believe the hardening of Israel is in response to Israel's rejection of God's plan of salvation. Consider the following verses:
"Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it."
Romans 11:12
"...those brances, the Jews, were broken off because they didn't believe God..."
Romans 11:20
"Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the Jews refused his mercy, God was merciful to you instead."
Romans 11:30
These verses seem to show that the Jews rejected God's plan of salvation which in turn, caused God to go on to a "plan B" (as an open theist would say). Yet, somehow, the Jews have the power to be grafted back into the tree: "And if the Jews turn from their unbelief God will graft them back into the tree again..."
Romans 11:23.
Also, doesn't this hardening actually argue against the first point of Calvinism: Total Depravity? If NO ONE has the ability to find God (incapable of "vertical good" as Norman Geisler puts it) without God sweeping down and pulling them into his flock, why would it be necessary for God to harden anyone? This idea of hardening assumes that everyone is capable of finding God unless they are hardened.
As far as I can tell, the only way to salvage Total Depravity and acknowledging this hardening of the hearts is to believe that God has made it possible for ALL men to come to know him, and without this gift from God, no one would be able to find him. This coincides well with Romans 1:18-20, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, etc.
Anyway, the hardening and concealing of revelation you bring up in Luke and Mark doesn't square with Calvinism OR the idea that God wills everyone to find him (1 Timothy 2:4). The only explanation I can see is some view that God has two wills. What these two wills are is up for debate. I'm pretty sure everyone believes this, whether they know it or not. For instance, the free-willer would argue that God wills everyone to heaven and at the same time he wills everyone to have free-will. Is this not two wills?
Anyway, I'm getting off the subject. Flames? Comments?
--Jewgrass, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
Edited by - jewgrass on 11/26/2001 4:01:30 PM
Edited by - jewgrass on 11/26/2001 4:08:03 PM
Edited by - jewgrass on 11/27/2001 08:24:41 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 11/26/2001 8:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If all people are capable of saying no, how is it that some refuse God's grace and others accept it?
Stubborness. Some people have yet to realize that their own efforts are not good enough to get them by in this life, or in the next. They've had "good luck" in this life and don't understand that simply succeeding in this world is not going to be enough to get them by. Pride also plays a major role in their decision making process. When someone is doing well in life they'll start to develop a sense of pride and confidence in themselves, not seeing the need for God to help them.
It's always been my belief that everyone reaches a certain point in their life when they realize their own efforts are not good enough. When they've reached that point, they're going to be more open to hearing of God's love for them, and his offer of salvation. For others, the question for them will be "Why do I need salvation? I'm doing just fine on my own".
In His Grip,
Matt
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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/27/2001 3:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Matt said:
quote:
Stubborness. Some people have yet to realize that their own efforts are not good enough to get them by in this life, or in the next. They've had "good luck" in this life and don't understand that simply succeeding in this world is not going to be enough to get them by. Pride also plays a major role in their decision making process. When someone is doing well in life they'll start to develop a sense of pride and confidence in themselves, not seeing the need for God to help them.
So you are saying sinful personal pride and confidence keep people from accepting Christ... If we are all slaves to sin as the Bible clearly teaches (Romans 6:6-7, 17; Galatians 4:7-9), why would one sinner be more prideful and stubborn than another? It makes no sense. I'm trying to think of a good analogy, but am having problems. Here's one that will work until a better one is posted:
There's a bunch of weak people [slaves to sin] unable to lift weights [repent & be saved]. None of them are strong enough to lift it. They are enslaved to their weakness. The coach [God] comes along and takes some of the weight off the bar and makes it possible for some to lift the weight [Holy Spirit enables salvation]. However, some people appear to be much weaker [spiritual pride?] and are still unable to lift the bar. This analogy only works if what you're saying about pride is true, and this would lead us to the conclusion that the only reason many don't accept God is because He didn't take enough weight off their bars. I don't see how this can be a biblical conclusion. If we are all enslaved to sin, ALL of us would have this wall of spiritual pride and unwillingness to accept God. This line of thought leads to the reasoning that UNLESS God uses an irresistable grace, NO ONE would be saved.
--Jewgrass
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Jewgrass
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/27/2001 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Its hard for me to get my idea into words. Perhaps I've been unclear. Here it goes:
If our sinful nature is what keeps people from accepting Christ, then it would mean God did not compel these people hard enough for them to be able to accept Him. Out of this logic, the only reasonable conclusion is that God does not call everyone and grace must be irresistable. This makes perfect sense to me philosophically, but I can see many holes biblically.
Later,
Jewgrass
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GODesteem
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 11/27/2001 1:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg Burris wrote:
"Benjamin, regarding your treatment of Romans 11, I think it is possible, probable, and plausable to believe the hardening of Israel is in response to Israel's rejection of God's plan of salvation. Consider the following verses:.... These verses seem to show that the Jews rejected God's plan of salvation which in turn, caused God to go on to a "plan B" (as an open theist would say). Yet, somehow, the Jews have the power to be grafted back into the tree: "And if the Jews turn from their unbelief God will graft them back into the tree again..."
Romans 11:23."
My response:
One simple question: did the Jews aim to bring redemption to the Gentiles when they refused to accept the Messiah? THAT is the WHOLE point of the passage! GOD has chosen a remnant according to grace (11:5-6), and GOD has chosen to harden the Jews "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (11:25). God is the one in control, not the Jews.
Greg also wrote:
"Also, doesn't this hardening actually argue against the first point of Calvinism: Total Depravity? If NO ONE has the ability to find God (incapable of "vertical good" as Norman Geisler puts it) without God sweeping down and pulling them into his flock, why would it be necessary for God to harden anyone? This idea of hardening assumes that everyone is capable of finding God unless they are hardened."
My response:
Where did you get this idea of hardening? You make it sound as though many people really have a desire for Jesus, but God puts a steel sheet over their hearts, so that they cannot express this desire. Sinners are responsible for their condition. It is a wonder that God saves ANYONE. The hardening has to do, once again, with God's freedom and control. God, through various means, is in control of evil. He is quite capable of preventing a person from sinning (Genesis 20:6), and quite capable of granting repentance to whomever He chooses (2 Tim. 2:24-26). When he hardens a person's heart, He is simply "relaxing" His restaint of their wickedness. It is a passive action, not an active one. The active occurs when He regenerates a heart, and gives the gift of faith to those He has chosen.
Greg continues:
"As far as I can tell, the only way to salvage Total Depravity and acknowledging this hardening of the hearts is to believe that God has made it possible for ALL men to come to know him, and without this gift from God, no one would be able to find him. This coincides well with Romans 1:18-20, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, etc."
My response:
Well, if you looked at the biblical definition of hardening, you can easily salvage, and in fact, reinforce the doctrine of Total Depravity. As for your citation of 1 Timothy 2:4, and 2 Peter 3:9, I am sure you have looked at the context of those passages? Both contexts clearly define just who the "all" are. In 1 Timothy, the preceding verses make mention of "all men":
"1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of ALL MEN,
1 Tim 2:2 FOR KINGS AND ALL WHO ARE IN AUTHORITY, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
(CAPS are mine)
Could it be that all men may in fact mean "all kinds of men", seeing that Paul gives an example of two kinds of men (kings, and others who are in authority). After all, Paul tells the Ephesians to pray for ALL MEN. Unless you do nothing but pray, I think Paul may be limiting the all in a general sense, and not a specific person sense (i.e. every single person in existence).
As for 2 Peter 3:9, the context clearly shows the limit on "all":
"2 Pet 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2 Pet 3:2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
2 Pet 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
2 Pet 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
2 Pet 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
2 Pet 3:6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
2 Pet 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Pet 3:8 ¶ But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
In verse 1, Peter calls the readers "beloved." In verse 8 he calls them "beloved." In verse 9, just 9 words BEFORE "all", Peter addresses the reader as "you"! Where is there an inclusivism here? If Peter says that "the Lord is... patient toward YOU, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance", how do you stick "every person" for all in the verse? Please explain the grammatical reasoning for such a definition.
Greg concludes:
"Anyway, the hardening and concealing of revelation you bring up in Luke and Mark doesn't square with Calvinism OR the idea that God wills everyone to find him (1 Timothy 2:4). The only explanation I can see is some view that God has two wills. What these two wills are is up for debate. I'm pretty sure everyone believes this, whether they know it or not. For instance, the free-willer would argue that God wills everyone to heaven and at the same time he wills everyone to have free-will. Is this not two wills?"
My response:
Let me applaud you for at least being honest about this. Most people think God would have to be schizophrenic to have "two wills" - kind of a divine mind conflict. Thank-you for attempting to grapple with the Biblical text. Of course, I would disagree with both of your explanation of God's "two wills", but at least you discovered something interesting! Not many even concede that much...
Benjamin Musclow
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/27/2001 4:04 PM (GMT -6) | | First of all, as a new contributor to the board, I would like to say how much I enjoy the discussions here. Rarely can you find a place where serious issues can be discussed so openly without the stain of unattractive dogmatic closed-mindedness. Anything I say here, I do in love and humility. As a fallible human, my understanding of God can most certainly be flawed, and my interpretation of scripture could be tainted by my prideful sinful nature. With that said, I pray that all of us can humbly and truly ask God to give us truth and wisdom even if that means swollowing our pride and surrendering our erronous views to the truth (my fallible "filthy ragged" self is included).
Benjamin wrote:
quote:
One simple question: did the Jews aim to bring redemption to the Gentiles when they refused to accept the Messiah? THAT is the WHOLE point of the passage! GOD has chosen a remnant according to grace (11:5-6), and GOD has chosen to harden the Jews "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (11:25). God is the one in control, not the Jews.
My response:
Although I am still wrestling through the scriptures and logic of divine foreknowledge and would by no means classify myself as an open-theist (yet), I strongly agree with much of Boyd's writings concerning the thwarted will of God (Isaiah 30:1, Luke 7:30, Matthew 23:37, Jeremiah 18:12, Numbers 15:30, Romans 10:21) and the changing of God's plans based on the decisions of free agents (Jeremiah 18, 1 Kings 20).
The Israelites didn't reject the Good News in order to benefit the Gentiles, but, after their rejection, God was able to work this into his good plan:
"And we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose" Romans 8:27
I don't believe God "willed" the Jews to reject Christ... and Paul didn't believe that either:
"...the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is that the Jewish people might be saved. I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Instead, they are clinging to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. They won't go along with God's way." Romans 10:1-3
One might argue that I am completely wrong based on Romans 11:11 which says, "God's purpose was to make his salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves." Taken out of context, this verse would seem to indicate that God's eternal plan was for the Jews to reject Christ. However, verse 12 says "the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation." God offered the Jews salvation, yet they refused it (see 11:12, 20, 23, 30-31).
God's "new plan" to bring the Jews to jealousy by hardening their hearts would be what the open-theists would call a "plan b."
Benjamin wrote:
quote:
Where did you get this idea of hardening? You make it sound as though many people really have a desire for Jesus, but God puts a steel sheet over their hearts, so that they cannot express this desire. Sinners are responsible for their condition. It is a wonder that God saves ANYONE. The hardening has to do, once again, with God's freedom and control. God, through various means, is in control of evil. He is quite capable of preventing a person from sinning (Genesis 20:6), and quite capable of granting repentance to whomever He chooses (2 Tim. 2:24-26). When he hardens a person's heart, He is simply "relaxing" His restaint of their wickedness. It is a passive action, not an active one. The active occurs when He regenerates a heart, and gives the gift of faith to those He has chosen.
My response:
Here's my recent thoughts on hardening of hearts (be it the heart of Pharaoh or Israel). If I was a music teacher (I play the banjo, so we'll say I'm a banjo teacher) and I corrected a student on how they were playing, the student could have a full range of responses. They could listen to my criticism and learn from it, making them a better player. The student could also get angry and frusterated. If the banjo student got mad I could say two completely different statements and they both would be true:
A) The student got mad.
B) I made the student mad.
Although both of these statements would be completely true, taken out of context, they could mean two different things:
A) The student reacted negatively towards my criticism (student's will).
B) I forced the student to become mad and the student had no say in this decision (teacher's will).
Both of the original statements were true, but their out-of-context counterparts contradict each other. Can this same method of interpretation be applied to hardening in the Bible?
For instance, the first several times Pharoah's heart was hardened, it is obvious that Pharaoh did the hardening because of his own will (Exodus 7:13; 8:15, 19, 32; 9:7, 34-35). When we keep in mind that this stubborness of Pharaoh is a sin, which God is incapable of condoning (James 1:13), it make sense to read verses where God "hardens" Pharaoh's heart in the same context of the music student analogy above. God hardened Pharaoh by continuing to preach truth to a stubborn soul. If this is so, the same idea can be applied to the verses in Romans regarding Israel.
This is just an idea thats been going around in my mind, so any flames/criticisms are requested (I dont want to believe a lie!).
Benjamin wrote:
quote:
Well, if you looked at the biblical definition of hardening, you can easily salvage, and in fact, reinforce the doctrine of Total Depravity. As for your citation of 1 Timothy 2:4, and 2 Peter 3:9, I am sure you have looked at the context of those passages? Both contexts clearly define just who the "all" are. In 1 Timothy, the preceding verses make mention of "all men"... Could it be that all men may in fact mean "all kinds of men", seeing that Paul gives an example of two kinds of men (kings, and others who are in authority). After all, Paul tells the Ephesians to pray for ALL MEN. Unless you do nothing but pray, I think Paul may be limiting the all in a general sense, and not a specific person sense (i.e. every single person in existence).
My response:
I don't think this is what the text is saying:
"I urge you [the Christian recipients of the letter], first of all, to pray for all people [non-Christians]. As you make your requests [that is, the requests of the Christian recipients], plead for God's mercy upon them [non-Christians], and give thanks. . . This [prayer] is good and pleases God our Savior, for he [God] wants everyone [the WORLD] to be saved and to understand the truth. For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus. He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone [honestly... could this be referring to just the church??? No, its addressing the world.] This is the mesage that God gave to the world [see, it is the world!]"
I believe there is no way to say that this is speaking of only the church without molding the Bible to fit your theology rather than basing your theology on the Bible.
Benjamin said:
quote:
As for 2 Peter 3:9, the context clearly shows the limit on "all"... In verse 1, Peter calls the readers "beloved." In verse 8 he calls them "beloved." In verse 9, just 9 words BEFORE "all", Peter addresses the reader as "you"! Where is there an inclusivism here? If Peter says that "the Lord is... patient toward YOU, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance", how do you stick "every person" for all in the verse? Please explain the grammatical reasoning for such a definition.
My response:
Although 2 Peter is clearly written to Christians, chapter 3 speaks of the world. v. 5,7,9: "They [non-Christians] deliberately forget [deliberately??? sounds like they have some will in it] that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth up from the water and surrounded it with water. . . And God has also commanded that the heavens and the earth will be consumed by fire on the day of judgment, when ungodly people will perish [ok, now he's talking about UNGODLY NON-CHRISTIANS perishing]...The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return as some people think [notice he says 'some people' no 'you people']. No he is being patient for your sake [the church? we shall see if that is the case later]. He does not want ANYONE [not 'any of you Christians'] to perish [hell], so he is giving more time for everyone [again, not 'all of you Christians'] to repent"
If this verse was taken out of context, then why would God be giving Christians more time to repent? Unless our definition of being born again is wrong, and the people getting this letter are already Christian, then there would be no need to extend time for repentence! Why the need to repent or perish??? If this letter's theology is completely TULIP, then why would God need to give people more time to repent? Why not just call them with Irresistable Grace and boom, its done? When these points are considered, then "your sake" MUST refer to the world, not just the Christians, otherwise we could loose our salvation by not repenting again!
--Jewgrass
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/29/2001 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | I realize everyone is busy with all the God Hates/Loves homosexuals talk, but I'd really like to get some feedback about my post on hardening of hearts above. What do ya'll think?
--Jewgrass
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GODesteem
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 12/1/2001 9:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Greg B.! I will only respond to the specific issue of "hardening", and possibly respond to the supposed desire of God to save everyone at a later date. However, let me say how encouraged I was to read the following:
Greg:
"First of all, as a new contributor to the board, I would like to say how much I enjoy the discussions here. Rarely can you find a place where serious issues can be discussed so openly without the stain of unattractive dogmatic closed-mindedness. Anything I say here, I do in love and humility. As a fallible human, my understanding of God can most certainly be flawed, and my interpretation of scripture could be tainted by my prideful sinful nature. With that said, I pray that all of us can humbly and truly ask God to give us truth and wisdom even if that means swollowing our pride and surrendering our erronous views to the truth (my fallible "filthy ragged" self is included)."
Let me be the second to re-iterate those words, and apply them to myself. All I ever ask is that we discuss the Scriptures, and not attempt to stuff philosophy in where it should not be. It is a difficult thing to handle the "whole counsel of God", and far be in for me to claim to have figured it all out! Your humility is a breath of fresh-air.
Greg wrote:
"The Israelites didn't reject the Good News in order to benefit the Gentiles, but, after their rejection, God was able to work this into his good plan:
"And we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose" Romans 8:27
I don't believe God "willed" the Jews to reject Christ... and Paul didn't believe that either:
"...the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is that the Jewish people might be saved. I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Instead, they are clinging to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. They won't go along with God's way." Romans
10:1-3
One might argue that I am completely wrong based on Romans 11:11 which says, "God's purpose was to make his salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves." Taken out of context, this verse would seem to indicate that God's eternal plan was for the Jews to reject Christ. However, verse 12 says "the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation." God offered the Jews salvation, yet they refused it (see 11:12, 20, 23, 30-31).
God's "new plan" to bring the Jews to jealousy by hardening their hearts would be what the open-theists would call a "plan b."
My response:
In all honesty, from verse 1 of Romans 11, there is a constant description of God's activities in salvation in redemption. God is the one who ""kept for (HIM)self seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal" (v. 4), and God decided that there would be "a remnant according to God's gracious choice" (v.5). According to verse 7, "What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened", again emphasizing GOD's choice (whomever was chosen, they obtained salvation!).
The key passage (I believe) is found in 11:25-28;
"Rom 11:25 ¶ For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
Rom 11:27 "This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers."
Again, there is nothing suggesting a plan "b", because Paul quotes Old Testament passages, which outline God's continual working in Israel, including where He will "take away their sins" (v.27, cf. Isaiah 59:20-21, 27:9, Jeremiah 31:33-34).
God is the one in control of His decisions, and His covenant will never be broken or revised.
Greg wrote:
"Here's my recent thoughts on hardening of hearts (be it the heart of Pharaoh or Israel).... For instance, the first several times Pharoah's heart was hardened, it is obvious that Pharaoh did the hardening because of his own will (Exodus 7:13; 8:15, 19, 32; 9:7, 34-35). When we keep in mind that this stubborness of Pharaoh is a sin, which God is incapable of condoning (James 1:13), it make sense to read verses where God "hardens" Pharaoh's heart in the same context of the music student analogy above. God hardened Pharaoh by continuing to preach truth to a stubborn soul. If this is so, the same idea can be applied to the verses in Romans regarding Israel.
This is just an idea thats been going around in my mind, so any flames/criticisms are requested (I dont want to believe a lie!)"
My response:
I don't find it "obvious" that those passages in Exodus clearly showed Pharoah's will as the determining factor in his state of heart. In fact, Exodus 4:21-23 speaks to the issue:
"Ex 4:21 ¶ The Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Ex 4:22 "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the Lord, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.
Ex 4:23 "So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.""
Amazing how God actually explains His future actions "in response" to Pharoah's refusal to obey God, because God is "determining" Pharoah's response! According to 4:21, God tells Moses to perform ALL of the signs and wonders, and states that He will harden Pharoah's heart "SO THAT he will not let the people go." Notice how God has already told Moses what to say AT THE END of the signs and wonders! Which plague was it that involved the "killing of the firstborn son"? THE LAST ONE! How is this plan "b"?
To further the point, God expands on the issue:
"Ex 7:2 "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
Ex 7:3 "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Ex 7:4 "When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments.
Ex 7:5 "The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst."
God's main purpose in the hardening is so that "The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord." Amazing how GOD-centred God is! There is no mention of "if", as if God is responding to Pharoah's stubbornness by trying another option. God has decided how He will act, and uses "free-will" agents to accomplish His purposes.
Lastly, let us look at the texts you cited:
"Ex 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Ex 7:22 But the magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret arts; and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."
In these first two passages, there is no direct explanation of who is hardening Pharoah's heart - there is however, a clue.
"as the Lord has said...."
If the Lord said how Pharoah would react BEFOREHAND, what possibility is there for the Lord to be wrong?
"Ex 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."
This is the first passage to explicitly state that Pharoah "hardened his heart." Again, the author includes "as the Lord had said."
"Ex 9:7 Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go."
To use your words "taken out of context, this verse would seem to indicate that (Pharoah was the ultimate determining factor in how God would act in the situation), because there is no mention of "as the Lord had said. Of course, if you read from Exodus 4:21, you have no problem giving God the right to do whatever He pleases. Just a few verses later provide some important enlightenment on the issue:
"Ex 9:12 And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."
Ex 9:13 ¶ Then the Lord said to Moses, "Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
Ex 9:14 "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.
Ex 9:15 "For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth.
Ex 9:16 "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth."
What is God's motivation here?
"so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.... for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth."
God is in complete control of the Egyptians life-span, whether or not they will remain on the earth. Notice the introducion:
"the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."
Sounds somewhat prophetic to me - a proclamation of absolute assurance.
"Ex 9:27 ¶ Then Pharaoh sent for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, "I have sinned this time; the Lord is the righteous one, and I and my people are the wicked ones.
Ex 9:28 "Make supplication to the Lord, for there has been enough of God's thunder and hail; and I will let you go, and you shall stay no longer."
Ex 9:29 Moses said to him, "As soon as I go out of the city, I will spread out my hands to the Lord; the thunder will cease and there will be hail no longer, that you may know that the earth is the Lord's.
Ex 9:30 "But as for you and your servants, I know that you do not yet fear the Lord God."
Sounds like Moses is catching on! Moses states, to Pharoah's face, in light of Pharoah's supposed repentance (v. 27), that Pharoah and his people "do not yet fear the Lord"!!! I wonder if Moses has a problem with God determining a future actions of a person, as if this nullifies free-will?
"Ex 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Ex 9:35 Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the Lord had spoken through Moses."
Here we have it made explicit that what Pharoah was doing was sinful, and yet the author points out that this was "just as the Lord had spoken through Moses."
"Ex 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go.
Ex 10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Ex 11:1 Now the Lord said to Moses, "One more plague I will bring on Pharaoh and on Egypt; after that he will let you go from here. When he lets you go, he will surely drive you out from here completely."
The last passage speaks of God's certainty of Pharoah's response to the last plague (remember 4:21???). Again, Moses doesn't seem to quibble with God about the plausibility of God deciding a human response and the moral responsibility of the person.
"Ex 11:9 ¶ Then the Lord said to Moses, "Pharaoh will not listen to you, so that My wonders will be multiplied in the land of Egypt."
Ex 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land."
This passage is a summary of the whole state of affairs. God said that Moses would perform ALL of the signs and wonders, and this is exactly what happened. The passage states that the reason Pharoah did not let the Israelites go was because the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart.
"Ex 14:4 "Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord." And they did so.
Ex 14:5 ¶ When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his servants had a change of heart toward the people, and they said, "What is this we have done, that we have let Israel go from serving us?....
Ex 14:8 The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and he chased after the sons of Israel as the sons of Israel were going out boldly....
Ex 14:17 "As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
Ex 14:18 "Then the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord, when I am honored through Pharaoh, through his chariots and his horsemen."
I cite this last passage because it is the climax. How could God be honoured through Pharoah? Pharoah had continually rejecting Moses command to let the Israelites go!
"Then the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord, when I am honored through Pharaoh, through his chariots and his horsemen."
I see nothing whatsoever in the whole passage (Exodus 4-15) suggesting that God "wished" Pharoah would just give up the people, and how God had to resort to plan B to make sure that His covenant was fulfilled. If you could delve into the mountain of Scripture I presented, and come up with a more plausible interpretation, I would be happy to reason with it. In the meantime, a quick glance over the song of Moses in Exodus 15 is an excellent summary of God's faithfulness:
"Ex 15:6 "Your right hand, O Lord, is majestic in power, Your right hand, O Lord, shatters the enemy.
Ex 15:7 "And in the greatness of Your excellence You overthrow those who rise up against You; You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff.
Ex 15:8 "At the blast of Your nostrils the waters were piled up, The flowing waters stood up like a heap; The deeps were congealed in the heart of the sea.
Ex 15:9 "The enemy said, 'I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; My desire shall be gratified against them; I will draw out my sword, my hand will destroy them.'
Ex 15:10 "You blew with Your wind, the sea covered them; They sank like lead in the mighty waters.
Ex 15:11 "Who is like You among the gods, O Lord? Who is like You, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?
Ex 15:12 "You stretched out Your right hand, The earth swallowed them.
Ex 15:13 "In Your lovingkindness You have led the people whom You have redeemed; In Your strength You have guided them to Your holy habitation.
Ex 15:14 "The peoples have heard, they tremble; Anguish has gripped the inhabitants of Philistia.
Ex 15:15 "Then the chiefs of Edom were dismayed; The leaders of Moab, trembling grips them; All the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.
Ex 15:16 "Terror and dread fall upon them; By the greatness of Your arm they are motionless as stone; Until Your people pass over, O Lord, Until the people pass over whom You have purchased.
Ex 15:17 "You will bring them and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, The place, O Lord, which You have made for Your dwelling, The sanctuary, O Lord, which Your hands have established.
Ex 15:18 "The Lord shall reign forever and ever."
Amen and Amen!
Benjamin Musclow
God loves Himself more than anything...
Edited by - godesteem on 12/01/2001 2:09:41 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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bishop3
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 12/3/2001 6:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Hello
I believe God chose his Children from before the foundations of the world Just as Ephesians 1 says. I dont claim to be able to answer all the "Paradoxes" in scripture but I believe scripture is very explicit about the predestining of God's children to Himself
Aaron
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jstaples4jc
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 12/3/2001 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Well, I believe that the fundamental issue boils down to these verses:
quote:
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Your thoughts on these verses?
Sola Scriptura! Sola Fide! Sola Gratia! Solus Christos! Soli Deo Gloria! | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 12/3/2001 7:31 PM (GMT -6) | | I am still wrestling through these verses. Just to save the open-theists on this board some time, here's what Doc had to say on Romans 9 in a previous thread ("Does God Create People Specifically from Hell" from The Raging Debate continues here forum).
Greg Boyd on Romans 9
Part I:
For the most part I enjoy these dialogues from a distance, mostly because of time considerations. I really enjoy the quality of discussion taking place here, but I just can't engage too often. But Lion-Lamb has been asking for an in depth exegetical dialogue on Romans 9 for some time, and I’d like to enter into this. Lion's won comments are thorough, scholarly, and insightful. I'll try to engage in kind. My response will take place in two parts. In Part I I’ll offer a few brief observations about Lion Lamb’s interpretation of Romans 9, contrasting them with my own. In Part II I’ll give other arguments supporing my interpretation.
Lion Lamb wrote: “Paul’s argument in Romans 9 concerns God’s electing grace. God, out of mercy, has chosen to be merciful to whomever he wants to be merciful.”
Boyd: I agree with Lion-Lamb here. Where we may differ is over this question: WHO is it that God has decided to have mercy on? And WHO has he decided to harden? I believe (and will show subsequently) God has mercy on “whosoever will believe” and he hardens “whoever will not believe.”
Lion-Lamb wrote: “Will you quarrel with God and argue that God is unjust to choose Jacob to be a child of promise and to reject Esau? Paul fully anticipated such a quarrel. That is why he says, “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!” (Rom 9:14).
Boyd: I again agree with Lion-Lamb. Paul is saying, God can do whatever he wants, and choose whomever he wants,. Where we may differ is over the question, Why is Paul’s point? Lion-Lamb seems to think it is to demonstrate how God saves and damns individuals. I think Paul is answering the question he began this chapter with, “Has the Word of God failed”. He wants to show that, even when God looks arbitrary (esp. to Jews), he is not.
Lion-Lamb wrote: “Paul insists that God also hardens whomever he desires to harden. The Gentile Pharaoh, in particular, is one whom God hardened in order to accomplish his own purpose to deliver the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt (Rom 9:15-18). Will you continue to quarrel with God the Creator? Paul anticipates the continued
quarrel. For he reasons: “You will say to me then, ‘Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’” (Rom 9:19).
Boyd: I agree with Lion-Lamb. God can harden whomever he wants. Where we may differ is over the question, who are those God wants to harden? Lion-Lamb seems to think it is any body. I suggest it is those who do not believe. What is shocking to most Jews of Paul’s day is that THEY are the ones being hardened -- FOR THEY DO
NOT BELIEVE (9:30ff). The Gentiles are the one’s receiving mercy --FOR THEY DO BELIEVE. It’s outrageous to the Jews. It looks arbrary. It looks like God is fickle. But, Paul says, the sovereign God has always had the right to choose whoever he wants. And, after all, WHO ARE YOU TO TALK BACK TO GOD!
Lion-Lamb wrote: “Paul’s diatribe style question, here, makes no sense if one follows the open theism reading of the passage. For no one could possibly be roused to raise such an objection, if God’s choosing and rejection of humans is grounded in human choice. It would make no sense at all!”
Boyd: Here I disagree with Lion Lamb. As James Dunn and many other exegetes have thoroughly demonstrated, the Jewish establishment of Paul’s day had really come to believe that they were God’s covenant partners by virtue of a)their nationality and b) their good works. THIS is Paul’s opponents throughout Romans 9. Hence his (all
important) conclusion,
“What shall we say then. Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith, but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling thast law. Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works.” (Rom. 9:30-32.).
This is NOT the conclusion we would expect from Paul if his point was to argue, as Lion Lamb maintains, that God determines which individuals will be saved and which will not. What we find here is that Paul explains everything he’s been talking about throughout this chapter by appealing to the morally responsible choices of the Israelites and Gentiles. The Jews did not “strive” by faith, though they should have. As Paul reiterates in the succeeding two chapters, the Jews as a nation did not submit to the righteousness of God that comes by faith (10:3). “They were broken off BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF” (11:20). THIS IS WHY they as a nation have now been hardened (Rom. 11:7, 25) while the Gentiles who seek God by faith have been “grafted in” (11:23). God’s process of hardening some and having mercy on others is not arbitrary: God expresses “severity toward those who have fallen [the nation of Israel] but kindness toward you [believers] provided you continue in his kindness” (11:22).
Now, to Jews who were used to trusting in their nationality or good works, THIS LOOKS ARBITRARY. How can God possibly have mercy on these disgusting gentiles simply because they believe, and harden wonderful people like ourselves? It is unjust!!! Paul's answer, again, is to say, the sovereign God has throughout history (e.g. Jacob/Esau, Isaac/Jacob) chosen whoever he wanted to choose. He can "have mercy on whomever he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whomever he wants to harden" (9:18).
For all these reasons (and more to follow) I do not accept the interpretation of Romans 9 that would imply that God arbitrarily predestines some to salvation, others to damnation. At the very least, this interpretation is not necessary.
Part II:
I’ll make three points to establish my interpretation of Romans 9, against the Calvinist interpretation that holds that Paul is talking about how God elects (and reprobates) individuals.
1. Paul demonstrates that he’s not talking about God arbitrarilly hardening and having mercy on people when he tells us WHY God has mercy on some and not on others. The reason is that some (Gentiles) BELIEVE while others (most Jews) do not (Ro m 9:30-32’ 10:3; 11:7, 20-25). This strikes Jews who have trusted in their nationality and good works as arbitrary. But it is not. And God is sovereign and can do whatever he wants. If he wants to save people, simply on the basis of faith, so be it!
2) The view that God simply chooses who he will have mercy on and who he will harden, and that this divine activity determines people’s eternal destiny, contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture that God’s love is universal and impartial (Acts 10:34, cf. Deut. 10:17-19; 2 Chron. 19:7; Job 34:19; Isa. 55:4-5; Ezek. 18:25; Mark 12:14;
John 3:16; Rom. 2:10-11; Eph. 6:9; 1 Pet. 1:17) and that God desires everyone to be saved (Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11; John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; 2 Pet. 3:9 1 John 2:2). It also undermines Scriptures which teach that free agents are morally responsible for their actions and are thus culpable when they go against God’s will. For all who
hold that Scripture is inspired by God and thus is consistent in what it teaches, this inconsistency should cause us to suspect that something is amiss in the deterministic interpretation of Romans 9. I would submit that it also contradicts the uniform biblical teaching that God is perfectly holy, that he cannot look upon evil (Hab), that he is light and in him there is no darkness (I JN), that he never willing afflicts anyone (Jer. 3:33), etc... If this interpretation is correct, God ORDAINS all evil and eternal suffering.
3) We begin to make headway in discerning precisely what is misguided about the deterministic reading of Romans 9 when we consider its interpretation of the potter/clay analogy which Paul uses in verses 20-23. In the deterministic interpretation, it is assumed that the clay has no “say” in how it is fashioned: the potter decides everything. This, I submit, is not at all how Paul understood this analogy.
It’s important to remember that Paul wasn’t the first biblical author to use this analogy. It was first used in the Old Testament where it has the opposite meaning of what those who espouse the deterministic reading of Romans 9 think it has. In Jeremiah 18 the Lord shows Jeremiah a potter working on a vessel. “The vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as seemed good to him” (vs. 4). The Lord then says, “Can I not do with you, O house of Israel, just as this potter has done?” (vs. 5). “Just like clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel” (vs. 6).
The Lord then applies the analogy. Since he is the potter and can do whatever he wants with the clay, the Lord will recant prophecies of fortune or misfortune if the people he is prophesying about alter their ways for better or for worse (vs. 7-11). As a master potter, he reserves for himself the right to “rework” vessels whenever he sees fit. God can and will change his plans if people change their hearts. He is telling Israel all of this because they have interpreted his prophecies against them in a deterministic fashion, concluding that “It is no use!” (vs. 12). The Lord thus reassures them that though their sin has “spoiled” the vessel he was making out of them, the masterful potter can refashion a new vessel out of them if they, the clay, will allow him to. If they will repent, he will repent of the judgment he intended to bring on them.
When Paul used this analogy to explain why God had mercy on Moses and hardened Pharaoh, therefore, he was not suggesting that Moses and Pharaoh had no “say” in how they were made. As in Jeremiah, the “clay” Paul is referring to is not some pre-existent clay of humanity out of which the Lord arbitrarily fashions individuals to suit his own eternal purposes-viz. to demonstrate his wrath or mercy. It is rather the clay of people’s lives in history. As in Jeremiah 18, people make themselves “spoiled” or pliable, and God responds by reworking them in this state “as seem...good to him” (Jer. 18:4)-always in accordance with their pliable or hardened hearts.
This is why Paul says that God “endured with much patience” the vessels he was preparing for destruction (Rom. 9:22). Why would he need “much patience” if the vessel was “spoiled” by his own fashioning? Why would he say, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people” (10:21, quoting Isa. 65:2) if he was the one molding them to be disobedient in the first place?
And, finally, one must wonder why an all-holy, all-loving God would intentionally fashion people in this “spoiled” manner in the first place. The patience and frustration of God toward the vessels which he was preparing for “destruction” makes no sense on the deterministic interpretation, but makes perfect sense if we understand them in the light of Jeremiah 18. This understanding of God’s use of Pharaoh also squares best with the Exodus narrative about Pharaoh which Paul relies uses in his analogy. It is important to note (as the Rabbis of Paul’s day frequently did) that the first acts of hardening in the Exodus narrative which depicts God as hardening Pharaoh’s heart are done by Pharaoh himself (Exod. 8:15, 32). God simply used Pharaoh’s hardening to suit his own providential purposes. He desired “to show his wrath and make his power known” (vs. 22) in order to intimidate Israel’s future adversaries.
When Paul responds to the charge of injustice by asking, “who...are you, a human being, to argue with God?” (vs. 20), he is not thereby appealing to the sheer power of the potter over the clay. He is rather appealing to the rights of a wise and just potter to fashion clay according to his providential purposes and in a manner that is appropriate, given the kind of clay he has to work with. If Israel persists in their rebellion, the potter hardens them and prepares them for destruction. If the Gentiles and Jewish believers persist in their simple faith, God has mercy on them and fashions out of them a beautiful vessel displaying his own eternal glory (vs. 21-23).
Again,this fashioning may look arbitrary, especially to hardened Jews who believed that they were the “vessel of honor” simply by virtue of being Jewish. As in Jeremiah 18, however, Paul’s use of this analogy demonstrates that that this kind of Jewish thinking, and the charge of arbitrary injustice that rises from it, is incorrect. God’s activity in history is not arbitrary: it is just and wise. And (to the offense of many Jews at the time) the possibility of being clay fashioned into a vessel which displays God’s glory is open to Jews and Gentiles alike. It all depends on whether or not one is willing to seek after the righteousness of God that comes by faith, not works (9:30-32; 10:3-5, 12-13; 11:22-23).
For all these reasons I do not agree with Lion-Lamb’s interpretation of Romans 9. Blessings to all. Let’s keep learning from and teaching one another. --Greg Boyd
--Jewgrass
"My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed." -- General Stonewall Jackson
Edited by - jewgrass on 12/04/2001 12:32:31 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/3/2001 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Miscellanious Comments on this Thread Thus Far
I've been out of the loop for a week, so I'd like to just offer some random thoughts on some of the postings.
Godesteem comments on my analogy: "God then comes into the room (incarnation) and begins to wrestle our hands away from our ears (Holy Spirit)." He askes: "How is this not infringing on the free-will of the person?… My point is simply that you are actually pretty much articulating the idea of irresistable grace…"
Doc: INFLUENCE doesn’t destroy freedom precisely because it is NOT "irresistable." God grants us the power to say "no" to the bitter end. Our freedom is INFLUENCED by a myriad of factors, but we are FREE insofar as these influences are only influences -- not deterministic causes.
On Romans 11: You’ve all GOT to read Forester’s God’s Strategy in Human History. It is GREAT on this issue. (Its also GREAT on the "hardening" issue -- see below).
Jewgrass: If we are all slaves to sin as the Bible clearly teaches (Romans 6:6-7, 17; Galatians 4:7-9), why would one sinner be more prideful and stubborn than another? It makes no sense…This line of thought leads to the reasoning that UNLESS God uses an irresistable grace, NO ONE would be saved.
Doc: To change the analogy: I agree with Calvinists that we are not merely drowning at sea and God throws us a life raft. Rather, we are already drowned, dead, at the bottom of the sea. "Dead in sin" "Slaves to sin" etc. Where we differ is that I don’t see God deciding to irrevocably raise a few from the dead, leaving the rest to rot. Rather, he graciously works to resurrect all. His Spirit enables us to believe. Now, some say "forget it" and go back and drown themselves. That IS a mystery. It is the mystery of iniquity. But two points should be noted. 1) The fact that some choose to reject eternal life and re-drown themselves doesn’t make the gift of eternal life to those who accept it any less of a gift. 2) The mystery of why some choose death over life is the proper mystery to embrace, for it doesn’t destroy the glorious truth that "God is not willing that any should perish" (and all the other verses declaring the universality of God's love).
Godesteem asks: One simple question: did the Jews aim to bring redemption to the Gentiles when they refused to accept the Messiah? THAT is the WHOLE point of the passage! GOD has chosen a remnant according to grace (11:5-6), and GOD has chosen to harden the Jews "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (11:25). God is the one in control, not the Jews.
Doc Of course the Jews weren’t aiming at the redemption of the Gentiles when they rejected Christ . But this is a matter of God using evil for good (as you later seem to acknowledge). Yet you speak as though God simply decided to harden them. You won't allow this to be a "plan B". But doesn't Romans 9-11 make it abundantly clear as to WHY God hardned them?
* Rom. 9:31-32 but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works.
* Rom. 11:20 They were broken off because of their unbelief…
God responds to human’s choice to accept or reject his kindness by being gracious or hardening people. His "plan A" is to save them. His "plan B," as it were, is to use them for a good purpose if they refuse plan A. We CAN thwart God's will. Hence Paul warns:
* Rom. 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
This is not at all consistent with the view that GOD unilaterally decides whom he will harden and whom he wont. (He DOES decide the class of people he will have mercy on and the class of people he will harden. He will have mercy on any who have faith. THIS is the scandal which most of the Jews of the day can’t accept. And THIS is the central topic Paul is addressing in Romans 9). Because God is RESPONDING to people, there is hope for Israel.
* Rom. 11:23 And even those of Israel, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
God WANTS to have mercy on all.
* Rom. 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him.
And he is grieved when people obstinantely refuse his gracious overtures.
* Rom. 10:21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."
This longing, I submit, is utterly incompatible with the idea that it was GOD who made them disobedient by hardening them in the first place!! How could God stretch out his hands "all day long" and call for people to come to him if he was the one hardening them in their refusal to come to him????
On the Hardening of Pharoah: There are three words used in Hebrew that are translated "harden" in the Exodus passage" qashah: stubbornness; kabed: heavy, immovable; and chazaq: strengthen. God predicts that Pharoah will resist him (Ex 4:21 and 7:3) based on his knowledge of Pharoah’s character, in my view. Pharoah had manfested a contemptuous attitude toward God even before God began to deal with him (5:2). In the flow of the narrative from 7:13-9:11, it is Pharoah who first makes his heart immovable (kabed) and strengthened against God (chazaq). God first strengthens Pharoah in his stubborn strength in 9:12. The Lord is, in effect, granting Pharoah his wish. "You want to be strong against me," he is saying, " I’ll help you." This doesn’t imply anything more than that God is ensuring that Pharoah will not let the people go for alterior motives (viz. economic reasons, cowardice, etc.). The Lord will use him in his stubborness to make an example other nations will fear.
Jstable4jc says: "I believe that the fundamental issue boils down to these verses (cites Rom 9:16ff).
Doc: Jstables, welcome to the cite. You are assuming a particular interpretation of these verses, one that was unknown to the Church until the 5th century (except among certain gnostics, especially the Manicheans, from whom, I argue, Augustine got it and "Christianized it"). For an alternative reading, check out the response to compatibilistic passages in the Warfare section of this website.
Great discussion folks!
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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GODesteem
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 12/6/2001 6:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Greetings Mr. Boyd! A couple of questions for you, in response to your comments:
"DOC: INFLUENCE doesn’t destroy freedom precisely because it is NOT "irresistable." God grants us the power to say "no" to the bitter end. Our freedom is INFLUENCED by a myriad of factors, but we are FREE insofar as these influences are only influences -- not deterministic causes."
My response:
But what "if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will"??
(2 Timothy 2:25-26).
This actually looks like God may grant us the power to say "yes" to the knowledge of the truth! Amazing how there is an interesting parallel between this passage and the favourite of the non-Calvinist:
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
While God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth, it is up to Him to grant repentance so that any man may come to the knowledge of the truth.
"DOC: To change the analogy: I agree with Calvinists that we are not merely drowning at sea and God throws us a life raft. Rather, we are already drowned, dead, at the bottom of the sea. "Dead in sin" "Slaves to sin" etc. Where we differ is that I don’t see God deciding to irrevocably raise a few from the dead, leaving the rest to rot. Rather, he graciously works to resurrect all. His Spirit enables us to believe. Now, some say "forget it" and go back and drown themselves. That IS a mystery. It is the mystery of iniquity. But two points should be noted. The fact that some choose to reject eternal life and re-drown themselves doesn’t make the gift of eternal life to those who accept it any less of a gift. The mystery of why some choose death over life is the proper mystery to embrace, for it doesn’t destroy the glorious truth that "God is not willing that any should perish" (and all the other verses declaring the universality of God's love)."
My response:
Where does the Bible speak of everyone being raised from their spiritual death? What does the Bible state are some of the characteristics of those who have been regenerated?
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
Here the text grammatically states that the person who is born of God (past action) believes (present, ongoing action) that Jesus is the Christ! I do not know of any passage speaking of someone who is spiritually reborn who REFUSES to trust in Jesus. Please remove my ignorance...
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Unless you are arguing that this "universal" resurrection has nothing to do with the Father giving (or drawing) people, then this verse clearly shows that the Father's giving is ALWAYS effectual.
I honestly could share many more Scriptures, but I actually would just like some kind of exegesis establishing your views on universal resurrection. :c)
"DOC: This is not at all consistent with the view that GOD unilaterally decides whom he will harden and whom he wont. (He DOES decide the class of people he will have mercy on and the class of people he will harden. He will have mercy on any who have faith. THIS is the scandal which most of the Jews of the day can’t accept. And THIS is the central topic Paul is addressing in Romans 9)."
My response:
Yes, God does have mercy on those who have faith, but who has faith? If God is the one who "may" grant repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth, who has faith? According to Paul in Ephesians 2:4-10,
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Oh no, there is that "beforehand" word. According to the passage, WHILE we were dead in our transgressions, God raised us up in Christ, "and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"!!! Where does Paul speak of someone being raised up and then deciding to return to walking according to the prince of the power of air?
The text also speaks of God "preparing beforehand" good works that those that He raised up would produce (walk in). Also notice there is not a single mention of what WE do in the passage! It is ALL about God - His mercy, His grace, and His love - so that no one may boast.
"DOC: On the Hardening of Pharoah: There are three words used in Hebrew that are translated "harden" in the Exodus passage" qashah: stubbornness; kabed: heavy, immovable; and chazaq: strengthen. God predicts that Pharoah will resist him (Ex 4:21 and 7:3) based on his knowledge of Pharoah’s character, in my view. Pharoah had manfested a contemptuous attitude toward God even before God began to deal with him (5:2). In the flow of the narrative from 7:13-9:11, it is Pharoah who first makes his heart immovable (kabed) and strengthened against God (chazaq). God first strengthens Pharoah in his stubborn strength in 9:12. The Lord is, in effect, granting Pharoah his wish. "You want to be strong against me," he is saying, " I’ll help you." This doesn’t imply anything more than that God is ensuring that Pharoah will not let the people go for alterior motives (viz. economic reasons, cowardice, etc.). The Lord will use him in his stubborness to make an example other nations will fear."
My response:
Frankly, I am amazed at how you are ignoring the "straightforward" reading of Exodus 4:21-23! Somehow inconsistent for the Open Theist. Oh well...
"Ex 4:21 The Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
"Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the Lord, "Israel is My son, My firstborn. "So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.""'
A simple read of the text clearly shows that God is well beyond "predicting" the behaviour of Pharoah. God states that Moses is to perform ALL of the wonders that God will empower him with, and also states that Pharoah WILL NOT let the Israelites go. God even tells Moses what to say after the VERY LAST plague has come upon the Egyptians (though Moses does not know how many plagues are involved). Again, as I painstakingly attempted to show, many of the times where it says that "Pharoah's heart was hardened" it also states "as the Lord has said". Only ONCE does the text explicitly state that Pharoah hardened his own heart. There is nothing implying that God is responding to the stubborness of Pharoah, based on a prediction of his past resistance. The narrative also makes it quite clear why God is doing this - so that "the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst" (7:5).
This is as GOD-centred as you can get!
Thanks for the conversation...
Benjamin Musclow
God loves Himself more than anything... He is our greatest treasure! | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 12/25/2001 5:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Merry Christmas all! This thread has been dead for awhile, but I think the topic is worthy of more discussion.
Benjamin says:
quote:
But what "if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will"??
(2 Timothy 2:25-26).
This actually looks like God may grant us the power to say "yes" to the knowledge of the truth! Amazing how there is an interesting parallel between this passage and the favourite of the non-Calvinist:
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
While God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth, it is up to Him to grant repentance so that any man may come to the knowledge of the truth.
If I'm reading you correctly, then I agree with you and believe most people on this board, including Doc, would too. Sinful, fallen man does not have the ability to seek God (Romans 3:11). However, seeking after God and believing in the gospel are two different things. Since God is loving and impartial (Acts 10:34) and wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9), he grants the ability to believe. This can be seen in how God calls upon sinners to believe in the gospel:
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." --Mark 1:15
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." --Acts 17:30
"...and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." --Revelation 22:17b
"In that last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." --John 7:37
Furthermore, Scripture declares that people have the ability to reject this invitation to Christ:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." --Matthew 23:37
"Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life." --John 5:40
So yes, man is Totally Deprived in that he cannot and will not seek, believe, or trust in God, but God "put the knowledge of Him" (Rom. 1:19) in the hearts of sinners so that even unbelievers have an understanding of right and wrong (Rom. 2:14-15) and are morally responsibly for not choosing to believe in Christ.
Benjamin says:
quote:
Yes, God does have mercy on those who have faith, but who has faith? If God is the one who "may" grant repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth, who has faith? According to Paul in Ephesians 2:4-10,
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Oh no, there is that "beforehand" word. According to the passage, WHILE we were dead in our transgressions, God raised us up in Christ, "and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"!!! Where does Paul speak of someone being raised up and then deciding to return to walking according to the prince of the power of air?
The text also speaks of God "preparing beforehand" good works that those that He raised up would produce (walk in). Also notice there is not a single mention of what WE do in the passage! It is ALL about God - His mercy, His grace, and His love - so that no one may boast.
I affirm that salvation is completely from God. If I walked down the street and gave all of my belongings, house, food, and money, to a bum on the street, the gift would be completely from me and the homeless man wouldn't have done anything to get it. But, if the man pridefully refused to accept my gift and instead clung to his "slavery to the streets", then he would not receive my gift. I wouldn't override his free-will. Also, if the man decided to take the gift, he wouldn't be working at all! Many Calvinists make the mistake to believe that anyone rejecting TULIP is taking the glory away from God and giving it to man. Many believe that any other theologies believe in some "works-based" salvation. This simply isn't the case.
It is true that all men are dead in their transgressions. Without God taking the initiative ("we love Him because he first loved us." --1 John 4:19) no one would ever be saved. God gets all the glory! However, God is also glorified in the gift of free-will. What brings more glory to God? Forcing unwilling creatures to accept his love (sounds like the line in the film Gladiator: "AM I NOT MERCIFUL!?!?!?!?!?!") or having free agents accept his offer of eternal life? I would argue for the latter.
Man can only be held responsible for not responding to the gospel if it is possible for sinful fallen man to believe. The Bible affirms that, with God's initiative, man is capable of accepting God's gift and believing in the gospel.
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." --Acts 16:30-31
"...unless you believe that I am who I say I am, you will die in your sins." --John 8:24b
"Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of what you have seen me do." --John 14:11
If no one has the ability to believe the gospel, as the Calvinist would have you believe, then God is doing nothing more than taunting his flawed creation with verses like those cited above. Yes man is depraved and yes we are saved by God's grace, but through God, man has the ability to believe or reject the gospel. This free-will has been granted all to the benefit of God's glory.
--Jewgrass
"If what the Bible says about man is true, how could anyone ever possibly be saved? There are two alternatives: the Bible and TULIP Calvinism." --Dr. Laurence M. Vance | | Back to Top | | |
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