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phil_five
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 12/1/2003 6:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Anyway, I was just wondering what everyone thought of tithing, as in, do you think it is a New Testament concept? Or is it part of the law that had passed away? Should we give as the Holy Spirit directs us as opposed to tithing?
Thanx.
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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 12/2/2003 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | phil_five,
There are some (mainly Mormons) come to mind that still believe the strict 10% tithe should still be in effect. They often cite this passage as supporting evidence:
Malachi 3
9 You are under a curse-the whole nation of you-because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty.
However as Laika has pointed out, with Jesus' coming the Law was not abolished but fulfilled. Meaning it really wasn't about 10%, or even 90%, but where your heart was. Giving 10% with the right heart means much more than 90% without.
In practice, this would mean you ought to give what you are comfortable with between you and God. However, understand that God needs to come FIRST in everything, including consideration of your finances. Meaning if you have the attitude of, "I'll wait until I pay all the bills before I decide how much I should give in offering", that is the wrong attitude.
However, I do believe that 10% of your gross income is a good starting point for those who are not sure how much is enough.
Personally, I like the gauge that CS Lewis recommended. He said that until we give until it begins to feel uncomfortable and we need to feel the need to rely upon God that we probably aren't giving enough. And I believe that most Americans especially fail to meet that criteria.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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streetpreacher
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 12/2/2003 5:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
phil_five,
There are some (mainly Mormons) come to mind that still believe the strict 10% tithe should still be in effect. They often cite this passage as supporting evidence:
Malachi 3
9 You are under a curse-the whole nation of you-because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty.
Mormons? Almost every Pentecostal, Charismaniac, Fundamentalcase, Baptist or Evangelical Church I've every been to or watched on television has used this verse to browbeat their parishioners (some with lighter hammers than others). I think the modern tithe message signifies a lack of trust in God on the part of pastors, IMHO.
Today Lucifer is probably surveying the church just as Bonaparte did China. One can almost behold the fear in his eyes as he thinks of the Church's unmeasured potential and growls, "Let the Church sleep! If she wakes, she will shake the world." Is not the Church the sleeping giant of today?.... - Leonard Ravenhill | | Back to Top | | |
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streetpreacher
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 12/2/2003 5:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
However, understand that God needs to come FIRST in everything, including consideration of your finances. Meaning if you have the attitude of, "I'll wait until I pay all the bills before I decide how much I should give in offering", that is the wrong attitude.
Why is that the wrong attitude? If the bill is for something trivial, I might agree. But I've heard pastors tell people they were in sin for paying their utilities or buying groceries instead of tithing. Maybe our witness in how we pay our bills (stewardship) is important to God too?
I'm not trying to disparage what you're writing. But I'm against the modern teaching by greedy ministers that tell parishioners to "give 'til it hurts." If by hurt, we mean you forgo that new motorboat, Amen! But, if by hurt, we mean you forgo life necessities, then the pastor needs to get another line of work, where he can earn money the honest way.
I've seen too many people get hurt and ripped off by churches, but when they were down and out, the church was nowhere to be found. I'm sure you are not referring to that kind of abuse, but it is out there (and I'm not just talking about the extreme Word of Faith bunch).
Today Lucifer is probably surveying the church just as Bonaparte did China. One can almost behold the fear in his eyes as he thinks of the Church's unmeasured potential and growls, "Let the Church sleep! If she wakes, she will shake the world." Is not the Church the sleeping giant of today?.... - Leonard Ravenhill | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 12/2/2003 8:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Tithing is simply not taught as a rule for Christians to keep anywhere in the New Testament. It is only mentioned once, and that is in a derogatory sense:
Matt 23:23 (parallel Luke 11:42)
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
These folks Jesus was talking to were still living under the OT levitical priesthood and temple system.
Furthermore, did Melchizedek set up weekly meetings with Abraham giving tithes every week?
In the Old Testament, the tithe was set up as a sort of religious tax by which the priests and the temple were to be supported financially.
In the New Testament, believers are the priests, and the believers make up the temple. So we're supposed to tithe to ourselves, I guess.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/3/2003 3:07 AM (GMT -6) | | In view of what John has just posted (that being New Testament Scripture is almost silent about the "tithing," the heart of the Christian, in the context of one being in the Christ--the new work of God--there is no need to have a contruct tithe; the written word of God has moved into the heart of the Christian. The Spirit of God upon the heart of the Christian is what will constitute one's approach and distribution of his giving. All we need is the more of the heart and passion of Christ from His Spirit, and we will transcend the tithe in the most superior way.
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 12/3/2003 6:20 AM (GMT -6) | | streetpreacher,
I understand what you are saying, that we should not be so legalistic as to ignore things like taking care of widows and orphans (The same thing God accused Israsel is doing and Paul with the early Church). Of course, if it's a matter of giving vs. letting your children go hungry then by all means I think God would not be upset.
HOWEVER, let's be honest here. How much do we really NEED?! And that I think is where we as Americans fall quite short. What we consider "poor" in this country would be rich by many standards of the world. It amazes me how people can continuously justify "needs" such as cable TV, designer clothes, Frappacinnos, SUVs, etc. Is there anything wrong with these things? No, not inherently. But it's a matter of attitude. If in "Bills" they are referring to credit card bills for these things, and they are not giving to God first before addressing this, then that I believe is wrong.
Finally, addressing your issue of church abuse, I agree that the church is often guilty of spending money on the building itself rather than the people who inhabit it and I don't agree with all the budget decisions of churches I've attended. I think this may stem from the fact that we in this country at least have turned church giving into a subconscious consumeristic practice where we give (money) in order to receive something (the type of music we want, types of preaching, etc.) and if we don't like it, we take our money elsewhere. Unfortunately, some churches in an attempt to be "sensitive", fall into this trap and put the focus on finances in the same way businesses do rather than put the focus on people.
My only suggestion on how to combat this is for the giver to not worry too much about how the money is spent but to offer it as a sacrifice to God and trust that it will go where it's needed. Of course, do not throw common sense and wisdom out the window, but to keep God in the center of it. Another would be to not be afraid to discuss finances in the church and to view it as an true offering, not a "payment". The Epistles Paul gave regarding giving I believe was simply one practical method of implementing this and not necessarily a regimen for every church to follow.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 12/3/2003 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Tithing...
Well, I've always tithed. I've never been quite sure why, but I'm pretty convinced that the 10% is rightfully God's and so if we don't give it we are robbing God. Not a good plan. The blessing that open up because of it are good too [floodgates of heaven...!].
I do hear what people are saying though. I do agree that it should be a grace thing not a law thing. However, the law of Christ is often more thorough than the original one! We should actually view all of our money as God's, and so he can ask for however much of it that he wants. However, the bible makes it clear he'll want the 10% at least.
Also, just because the Pharisees got tithing wrong, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Jesus said that not a single jot of the law would pass away. Jesus fulfills it, but doesn't get rid of it. There's a difference methinks. I think Jesus was saying "sure, tithe your mint and dill, but don't forget the more important bits of the law (justice & mercy) too". The Pharisees read the scripture wrong...should we thus not read our bibles? The answer to misuse is right use not disuse, as they say.
I do agree that it's important to decide in our heart what to give, not under compulsion or obligation. However, that's giving an offering...the tithe is more like tax - we don't really have an option [well, we do, in the same way that we can not pay tax. But you know what I mean].
Just some thoughts.
love
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 12/6/2003 12:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I reckon before tax meself...
God wants the first fruits of our labour, and if the government get the 1st fruits, that's not really fair.
love
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 12/6/2003 5:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by phil_five
Anyway, I was just wondering what everyone thought of tithing, as in, do you think it is a New Testament concept? Or is it part of the law that had passed away? Should we give as the Holy Spirit directs us as opposed to tithing?
Here's a New Testament concept, Acts2:
44 "And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need."
This might help:
http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2003/2003-04-13_Boyd_Four-Principles-of-Kingdom-Giving.mp3
My dad, who is not a Christian, describes that as Communism
Christianity is voluntary.
Communism is forced
"Let every man give what is purposed in his heart."
There is that free will thing again. God is trusting us once again to do the right thing. Personally, I know very few in America who the Spirit lets off with only 10% but that is between them and God. I am glad God hasn't let me off with only 10%. I have much experience walking down the path of greed. That path led me to the gates of Hell. Benevolence is the essence of the Trinity and is the path we are called to walk at least in some significant measure. May we all be faithful to thisheavenly calling.
To God alone be the glory
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 12/7/2003 2:49 AM (GMT -6) | | | Act 20:35 . . . remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. | | Back to Top | | |
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