I also believe in angels and demons. I believe it, not only because it is biblical,but because I don't want to be accused of the fallacy of appealing to lack of proof (a.k.a appeals to ignorance). My friend Thayne thinks satan is the personification of evil. I really don't know how much plausibility there is to that statement, but it sounds interesting.
PIA, GO DO YOUR HOMEWORK (IMITATING A PARENT)
God Bless
Paul

Our natural greatness is seen as part of God's image, and that natural greatness has been conferred on us to enable us to achieve our supernatural destiny:to be related to God and to obey him freely.---Diogenes Allen

Edited by - faithfullservent on 12/09/2001 11:00:51 PM

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I believe in the Holy Spirit, but it doesn’t show up a whole lot in my life—at least not as a “manifestation.” pia

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might-be-don
That was a little too much information there.

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You should have seen the stunned look on their face when I related this story in church.

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Got MAD stuff to say here. Be here tomorrow.

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. I believe in angels and demons, I believe in gifts of the Spirit like tongues and prophecy and healing, and I believe in Spiritual warfare. In spite of my openness to these things, I have never encontered "manifestations" of them in my own experience. Is there something wrong with me?

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and...

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Am I the only one with a spiritual inferiority complex? Don’t any of you demon-chasing, satan-stomping people have any advice for me? I believe in the Holy Spirit, but it doesn’t show up a whole lot in my life—at least not as a “manifestation.”

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Meph:

First, let me give some simple answers to your questions and then fill them out. No, I don't think there is anything wrong with you. NO, you are NOT the only one with a spiritual inferiority complex. Yes, I have some "advice" for you.

Ah, the Spiritual Person

The first thing I think needs to be addressed is the nature of what we consider spiritual. I will never forget what occurred in my "Religion and Personality" class one day. The teacher asked the class to compose a list of things that we believed made a person more or less spiritual. Now, remember. This is at a predominantly Pentecostal/Charismatic university...so knowledge of the spiritual giftings in the seminary is quite standard. What ended up happening was pretty interesting. The list ended up being basically an expanded version of the FRUIT of the Spirit without any real reference to aspects of healings, discernment, miracles, etc. In other words, to our class, being a "spiritual" person had more to do with the type of God-toward CHARACTER that one demonstrated than anything else. Our teacher noted this and asked why this was. A person in the class noted what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13. The student noted how to Paul, "flashy" spiritual gifts meant NOTHING without love. He found it important that love was a FRUIT of the Spirit (arguably from whence all the others should flow)...and Paul thought THAT more important that all the flashy stuff. I thought that the student was right on...and I still do.

One of the main problems that I think exists in the growing worldwide expanse of Pentecostal-like phenomena in the Church is the slight implicit exaltation of experiencing and DOING the "spiritual" without having oneself GROUNDED in the "spiritual" What I mean is that people often want the POWER of God without first seeking the CHARACTER and INNER HEALING desired by God. Give me a church full of godly, teachable saints who don't do miracles, heal people, or speak in tongues, but exemplfy the FRUIT of the Spirit over some pew-jumping, miracle performing, tongue-talking, spirit-discerning hypocrites filled with pride ANYDAY. I'm not playing one against the other. What I'm saying is that one can do more productive Kingdom work with a person with CHARACTER ALONE than a person who has tons of supernatural phenomena with NO character. History would seem to bear this out.

At any rate, it is wonderful that you are OPEN to having "deeper" experiences in the realm of the spiritual. However, it is so, SO very important to grasp that one essentially has ALL one needs in Christ. In other words, you have the FULNESS of the Holy Spirit and you are no better or worse than the most vision-having, prophecy-givin', demon-exorcising Christian out there. In Christ, you are as "spiritual" as you need to be. It is very good to seek the spiritual gifts. We are encouraged to do so. But when it becomes a matter of superiority/inferiority where their becomes a classist elite of spiritual "haves" and "have-nots", the humble seeking of the gifts may become either ENVY or PRIDE, both of which are sinful. Allow the Spirit to use you as HE sees fit. Just continue to be open and operate in all the avenues that are available to you.



Is That Your Final Answer?

Pia, you keep saying that you want these experiences. I know that you've heard this statement:

"Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it."

I would SHOUT this to any person who really thinks that they want to experience some of the wild wooly things in the realm of the spiritual. Some of the junk ain't all fun and games. Being seriously oppressed by a nefarious evil spirit is SCARY AS HELL and it just plain sucks. Trying to follow the leading of God where God tells you WEIRD stuff that ends up having weird effects trips you out...and sometimes gets you in trouble. True story. Not too long after I had my major intiating experience, Nette and I went to a department store. (This is before we got married) I was still a relatively new Christian and as such still dealing with certain issues. One of which was lust. Anyways, we go in and there's this chick that has the BOMB body! I was like WHOA! Nice shapely legs, thick hips and everything. I moved all over the store to catch glipses of this woman. Anyway, in the middle of this, God says, "Hmmm...like what you see, huh? Try looking at her in a more spiritual light."

RIGHT after that, I looked at her...but it was like I was looking through her. I saw her standing there, arranging clothes in the store and smiling at customers. But superimposed upon her was ANOTHER her! And it was crying. I mean, crying her eyes out, like in immense pain. As if THAT wasn't enough, I started like "feeling" her pain. It would almost like double me over. I tried to stop seeing it, but it wouldn't go away. Finally, I had to just avert my eyes. Now just a minute ago, I was trying to break my neck to check this girl out. Now, I'm moving all over store to avoid seeing her because every time I saw her, it happened. Finally, I said "Man, forget this. I'm going outside!" I gave Nette the credit card (a MIRACLE in and of itself) and told her to buy whateve she wanted but I had to leave. Weirder and weirder. I would get to the exit...and I COULDN'T LEAVE! It was like some invisible force was pulling me from the middle of my gut. I tried like 3 times and it wouldn't work. Finally, I told God "Alright, God. What do you want? I gotta get out of here! I can't take this. God said: "I want you to tell her something for me." and gave me a message. Now about this time, I'm thinking I'm crazy and making all this up. I've been psychologically affected by spending too much time at church. This CAN'T be right! I try AGAIN to leave. It doesn't work. God says "I'm not letting you leave. Tell her what I've told you to tell her."

After trying to leave about 2 more times, I stop and think. "Hmmm. I know! NETTE can help me," I say. So I run to her and I tell her everything that's going on. Without missing ONE beat, she simply says: "Well, why don't you just tell her what you have to tell her?" [Digression: Having a spouse that understands both you AND your situations is SUCH a blessing!] "Because she'll think I'm CRAZY, that's why!" I exclaim, "Heck, I think I'm crazy." After seeing my futile new attempts to leave the store for herself, Nette decides to take things into her own hands. She goes up to the woman and asks her to come over to talk to me. DAMN! ARGGGH! When she comes over, the vision is not as intense, though still there. "Well, tell her, Dwayne," Nette says. I stammer like an idiot for a couple of seconds. "We don't have all day, baby," Nette says. Finally, I get it out. The girl's face has an expression of half being weirded out and half amazed. "So God told you this?", she said. I said, "Hey, look, PLEASE don't think I'm crazy. PLEASE. I'm just doing this because I honestly think I have to." After her thanking me, there was like a HUGE release. The superimposed image was gone. Nette and I then turned around and walked out of the store like it was nothing. I HAD to stop outside the entrance. My empirical nature NEEDED to see something. I went back in and out about 3 times...just to do it. There was NO resistance anymore or anything. I was tripped out over that for days.

Now that's an experience with GOD. I don't EVEN want to talk about some of the stuff I've been through with the demonic. Ugh...

I'm not telling this story to commend myself as some super-spiritual person...cause I'm not. You know me. This was ALL God, not any good or faithfulness that lay in me. I'm just telling this to let you know that when God operates through you in some "deeper" spiritual ways, it can be VERY scary, weird, and uncomfortable to say the least. I can see how some people who operate in this stuff can have nervous breakdowns or psychological problems. I've been through some proverbial hellish situations trying to hear and follow God's voice. One time I made the STUPID mistake of telling God I didn't want to hear from him or deal with him on those levels again. And part of me thinks I'm still paying somewhat for that one. But anyways, I'm just telling you this as a warning. If you really want to ask for this stuff, you'd BETTER be sure that you are willing to accept any and all things that MAY come along with it. Dip at your OWN RISK!





The Arbitrary God => The Wind of the Spirit?

Some of you may not realize that this is a part of the reason that I believe that God is somewhat arbitrary...meaning the Spirit blows where it wills. I often refer to my initiating experience as my "Road to Damascus" experience. This is for the simple reason that I found the two expereriences so similar. Paul was a person who was not really LOOKING for an experience with the Risen Christ. As a matter of fact, he was firmly against those who said that they WERE Christians. This is kinda like how I was. I seriously thought that people who spoke in tongues, believed in prophecy, and all that were straight LOONS. Idiots. Delusional miscreants. When I joined a church where they spoke in tongues, I actually felt more pity for them than anything else. Nice people, but SHEESH! So, who the heck would expect it when I have an "fiery" experience that leaves me frightened and awestruck like a little child...AT WORK (not church), no less!

As my walk with God grew over time, I asked God "WHY ME?" There are so many people in this world who ARDENTLY seek, ask, even BEG to have a deeper expererience in God...and they never really receive it. There are some people to "tarry" for YEARS and YEARS without ever expereriencing any type of supernatural phenomena. Honest, Jesus-loving, spiritually-hungry people. Then you have me. Someone who was NOT looking for it. Someone who made fun of it all. Someone who honestly didn't WANT it...and I get hit with this stuff like a lightning rod. I'm being real. ALL I wanted to be was a nice church-going Christian. Paying my tithes, being nice, showing up to church more often, but not TOO often. That's about it. So, the standard answers like "Well, you must have been really seeking after God." crud doesn't apply with me. I was NOT really seeking after God. I was just humoring the Holy Spirit when he asked me to try something new (or what I thought was the Holy Spirit)

Looking at all this, I didn't think it was fair. Why would God let these hungry, loving people who SO want to experience a deeper sense of certain spiritual realities go unfulfilled...while bestowing this gift on me? Why would God touch a person like ME when I had nothing but scorn for the whole thing in the first place? It was just not fair.

And what about those people who desperately wanted SOMETHING to hang their faith upon? Some type of voice from God, spiritual visitation or ANYTHING to help them in their times of faith crisis. How come THEY get passed over...and I get hit with this stuff. Example. One of the atheistic friends that I always talk about comes from a multigenerational line of Pentecostal saints. His parents are die-hard believers in Christ and the gifts of the Spirit. He was a believer for a good portion of his life, but then in the early 20s he began critically examining his faith, and found some things wanting. Meantime, even when he ardently BELIEVED in the gifts of the Spirit, it seemed that everyone in his church community would expererience the "Holy Ghost"...except him. Anointed oil didn't do it. Laying hands didn't do it. Nothing worked. And it wasn't that my homie didn't really want it. BOY, did he! But it never came off. The spiritual quagmire just grew. My friend cried out to God with all of his might, got prayed for numerous times and all that. Heck , he finally got to the point to where he just asked God to friggin TALK to him. Why? Because slowly but surely, he knew that he was losing his faith. From my recollection, he said something like this:

"God, look. I'm giving this all I have. PLEASE at least TALK to me. Help me understand all this. Or at least show me that you care that I'm going through all this."

Nothing. No earth-shattering experience. No word from God. Nothing. So, of course, you know the eventual result. He's now a firm atheist. Now, I look at this and say

"God, WHY? Would it have been so much for you to rock his world the way that you did mine? I'm sure that his parents (who are STILL praying for his return) would have greatly appreciated it. Would it have taken away his will to have just SPOKEN clearly to him the way that you did to me?"

To me, some of the implications of Doc's theological premise fails miserably here. To speculate that for all the people like my friend here, the devil was too strong or that they "really" didn't want it (which is pretty much the only two other options) borders on blasphemous and belittling. God surely COULD HAVE touched my friend ...and those other people without violating some type of free will. But it didn't happen. How else can this be reasonably explained except the willing of God? How else can this be explained except to say that the Spirit blows where it wills?? Heck, look at YOU, pia. Would it really do justice to your situation of seeking to believe that either you just don't have enough faith or Satan's just blocking the way? Would any person have the absolute GALL to say such things to you? Just to let you know, there are people I know who have been seeking for over 20 years. That's a long time. What if (God forbid) it was like that for you? Would the implications from the warfare worldview work for you?

I know that some people probably wonder why I bring all these things up that supposedly defame God's glorious "omnibenevolent" image. Some of y'all probably think that I have a beef with God. But it's not that. It's just that expereriences and thoughts like these have helped me to understand that God does what God wants! God is "arbitrary" in a significant amount of the things he does, I'm strongly convinced. Latching God to some abstract principle using dogma just doesn't work for me here. Why would God hold out on my diligently seeking friend, but give MY tired, blasphemous butt an experience? I don't know, but God knows. And that's all that matters. Is God unfair for this? Hmmm. Just about as unfair as he is for choosing Abraham over all the other people he could have chosen. Just as unfair as he is for choosing Israel as his prize. God has the right to choose for election WHOM he wants...no matter how we feel about it. What people like me need to remember is not to fall into the SAME stupid trap that Israel did...taking pride in their election and use by the Lord. God's doing this thing, not us. WHY He's doing what he's doing is His business, not ours. Even though the work may be considered synergistic, we STILL have to admit that the VAST majority of the work is on God. Most of the time, we just show up on the scene. We just trust and obey...which is exactly what we are supposed to do.

Maybe this will give a little more insight to why I think the way I do. Maybe.




The Grounding of My Faith

Let me be frank. My wild and wooly expereriences with the Risen Christ and demonic forces are the PRIMARY reason that I stick with this Christianity stuff. I don't mean nominal Christianity. Hell, anyone can do that. I'm talking REALLY trying to live the Christian theistic existence fully. The sacrifices, the asinine people, and constant warring with oneself. The bible contradictions, absurd apologetic attempts, and bouts of genuine doubt. Though I think theistic belief (particularly Christianity) would form a nice "noble lie" for certain existentially inclined people to believe in, I wouldn't hold it for that reason. I'd be a nice balanced humanist or something. (Like I said before, I think I could genuinely be a happy atehist.) Nope. I hold to this stuff because I honestly believe it to be TRUE. I believe that Christ is risen and Truth has grabbed me by the neck and won't let me go. I believe that there is a Satan with whom God is mixing it up. (It's a grossly fixed fight, though, mind you..but Satan still raises tons of hell.) I give authority to the Bible ONLY because of Jesus Christ...and do that ONLY because I believe that I've experienced Him.

A friend of mine were talking one day and we agreed that we are "reluctant theists." What this means is that, to a large extent, we couldn't NOT believe in a God, even if we really WANTED to (which sometimes I honestly did.) We don't believe just because we feel that without God, there is no meaning. We don't believe just because we want some idea of an afterlife. We believe primarily because we have EXPERIENCED God in such a way to break all of our foundations down...to such an extent that to deny the reality of God, I would necessarily HAVE to affirm my insanity! If there is no God who's been talking to me, leading me, and messing with me, then I have SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS psychological issues and need to be institutionalized IMMEDIATELY! I must have disassociative and generally schizophrenic tendencies...along with hallucinations. I must have been eating 'shrooms in my sleep or something. SOMETHING has to explain it. And I don't buy the Freudian archetypal idea. The God I deal with is a FAR CRY from the one that I would WANT to visualize as the extension of my own personal desires...and He's definitely not some mock father figure of mine. What has utter grounded all my faith is my spiritual experiences. Without them, I could only be a PROCESS Christian theologian...AT BEST.



So, whussup? Whatcha think? I hope this wasn't too long.

Love,



PS: For you dispensational and/or cessationists cats out there who don't believe me or my stories, that's cool. But hook a brotha up and please try to explain my experiences from your perspective. Be thorough, too, 'kay? Hey, I'll even let YOU pick the mental institution I check myself into. How about that? hehe...

Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love.

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I tend to think that Charasmatic believers who choose to engage in warfare by looking for the enemy to squash, might be falling into a psychological "self-fulfilling prophecy" experience.

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