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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/16/2001 1:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | Veiled in flesh the Godhead see/hail the incarnate deity...
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/16/2001 8:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Implicit Apollinarianism if you ask me. It would be better: -- Manifested in flesh the Godhead see... The "veil" language makes it look like he was wearing a human costume. God in a flesh suit!
I'm just jerking ya'll around. 
But then again, I think there is STRONG docetic tendencies in most of our Christmas stuff. (docetism denied the real humanity of Jesus)
* "when the cattle are restless, the poor baby wakes, but little Lord Jesus no crying he makes!" GIMME A BREAK!!!!
The nice clean manger (feeding trough! animal spit! gross!!!)
The nice clean hay (manure filled, blood stained, placenta in the corner)
The holy virgin smiling ("GIMME An Epideral, NOW" !!!(academic theological footnote: but she never said to Joseph, in those last moments of labor, THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!!!) And if she DID -- oh, makes you wonder what Joseph's comeback would have been, doesn't it.)
* The sweet clean animals looking reverently on the baby (they're nasty, smelling, overcrowded animals who are ticked that this human is taking up SPACE!!!)
* The three holy wise men from the east (Doesn't the bible forbid astrology! NEW AGERS in the Christmas Scene!!) [or, didn't they come later?]
* Joseph calm and reverent and caring (who delivered the kid? without ANY experience, or even a LAMOZ (spelling) class??? He'd never even had sex before!!!! And After all that travel? Friends, he was NOT calm and reverent. He was freaked out (having a virgin pregnant wife is bad enough, isn't it?), stressed out, bumbed out (no room in the inn), and angry (get out of my way stupid COWS!).
I think we should add a little does of REALISM into our manger scenes this Christmas. THIS is what God plunged into -- and its symbolically significant. A bloody, dirty, manure filled, smelley, over-crowed barn with over-stressed freaked out irrate and confused parents lying in a saliva filled feeding trough wrapped in barn rags on a cold night surrounded by baffled smelley shepards with angels keeping everyone awake singing chorus!!!!
But can you picture little Johnny at Daytons taking a look AT THIS. "Mommy whats that thing in...."
Forget it.
Have a merry merry Christmas.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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n/a
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 12/16/2001 9:35 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Wislawa
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 12/16/2001 10:47 PM (GMT -6) | | nice Doc, very nice.
better make sure its the right kind of messy manger though, God can only incarnate Godself in the right kind of mess.
Now if your a homosexual Hindu on the otherhand, God could never plunge into the middle of this life! or if you happen to be extreamly suicidal...
After all it would be indecent, and it wouldn't fit how we know the second coming is going to happen, and its not indexed in the "Left Behind" books. hey, weren't there a group of people who thought they knew how the first coming was supposed to be? what did they call themselves? fair-i-seesWHATs?
 truce
-Wislawa
for love is strong as death,
passion fierce as the grave.
Its flashes are flashes of fire,
a raging flame [shalhevet-Yah = the very fire of Yah(weh)].
Canticles 8:6
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/17/2001 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Actually, I simply posted because during church yesterday I was singing the song and was profoundly struck by the fact that Jesus IS God becoming man and what an incredible event that was...but Doc, your words are thought provoking as well...
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/17/2001 6:44 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't know how THOUGHT provoking they are... but for visual people they certainly are IMAGE creating... for better or for worse.
peace
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/18/2001 6:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Childrens Sunday school class rehursal for the Christmas play:
Sunday school Teacher: "No, repeat after me: The liiiiiitle Lord Jesus lay dirty in hay! JOHNNY, can't you get it right? Animals, maneuer, dirt. Now SING IT RIGHT OR GET OUTTA OF THE CLASS!"
You want realism, Doc? I'll give you realism!
Oy vai!
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 12/18/2001 7:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Doc. De-mythologizing the events of Jesus' birth, life, and death are very important if we are to get to the REAL Jesus. But not very popular, though. Most people seem to prefer the myths to reality.
Have you ever considered writing a screenplay of his life? How would you depict him? (I can see it now: Alfred Edersheim meets Monte Python.) But seriously:
The difficulty may arise in the sheer ordinariness of his appearance: the success of his incognito, as SK would say. There was no shining robe or special timbre of his voice, no "something about him," that gave him away - that made his identity obvious. Most people would view a realistic presentation as offensive. They just wouldn't realize that they are thereby offended by HIM, and not the presentation.
The popular view seems to be that in every event in his life, viewed in isolation, we would recognize that "something about him," that convincing evidence that he is the Son of God; and that the people of his day and ours are "blind" to these obvious signs.
What did he really look like to those around him? What did they REALLY SEE in him? How incongruous were his physical appearance and his real nature?
In a screenplay (as in a historical overview), giving the audience a "global" perspective hides these issues - they see an interpreted perspective, an overall context, that was not available to any individual observer. Giving the audience the perspectives of real observers could be quite interesting. Could they accept him on the strength of their own observations, or would they need to compare notes with other observers? What would be the decisive factors in accepting him? Were those who readily accepted him just more gullible than the others, or did God speak to them in a unique way?
Magneton
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." Albert Einstein
Edited by - magneton on 12/18/2001 12:44:30 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 12/18/2001 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Speaking of manger scenes:
Anyone know where I can get a nice manger scene, with the baby Jesus wrapped in the American flag, and the words "God Bless America" on the stable? I'm sure in today's climate it must be out there somewhere.  
Magneton
"Human kind cannot bear much reality." T. S. Eliot | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/18/2001 10:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Magneton: I suppose your post is an "attempt," to show your distain for wrapping God in the things that are going on right now. Regardless, it would seem to me that a country has the right to be called righteous if it is in keeping with the righteous God calls each of us to. While I do not advocate mixing the two, I still feel it is godly to support and urge and love your country, because this is the country a person was born and lives in. Therefore, this is the country God has given to those who call it home.
Whether or not a country is righteous, that is more of a matter of history than today. However, from where I am sitting, it seems much of what we, as a country, have done has worked. It is interesting that you don't hear many Afgans complaining right now...Harold
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 12/18/2001 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad,
Point well taken. I agree with everything you've said. My only beef is with people for whom the phrase, "God bless America" is code for "We're so great, we've earned God's blessing," rather than a sincere appeal to God for protection, guidance, justice, and other blessings on our nation, so we can be a blessing to other nations.
Magneton
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." Winston Churchill
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 12/18/2001 1:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Magneton: I was hoping I didn't come across the wrong way (it sounded too strong when I reread it). And I agree with you. Christians, at times, seem to go to one or the other extreme. Either America is the great country of God, or we are the great Satan that we should distance ourselves from. I don't see it as either or, but rather that we are part of a country we should pray to God for. However, seeing the baby Jesus wrapped in an American flag would be quite the sight, wouldn't it? Harold
Edited by - writerdad on 12/18/2001 7:01:00 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2001 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | HAS ANYONE HERE EVER READ
The Best Christmas Pagent Ever?
also...P.S When was Jesus born anyways?
Danger, Will Robinson. There is some weird numerology folk out there on the net to prey on you if you aren't careful.
But my favorite tid-bit is that the Shepherds watching were probably watching pascal lambs (the one's spotless and chosen for Passover sacrifice! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
! ! ! (Saved by an intervention of Springs! -- see below)
March or April, if I remember right.
OK, here's POW's history lesson. Christmas was more successful than the Latin/Irish attempt to trounce Samhain. (Easter worked in Russia too.) Epiphany/Theophany (Christ's Baptism) was -- boy I hope this is right (late for me) -- modeled on Pascha (Lend/Easter) and Theophany in January 6. The Birth was celebrated together with Christ's Baptism (another thing us born-Baptists are/were ignorant of...) on Jan 6. Part of that is that while Christ did not, himself need cleansing (But he did it FOR US "to fulfill all righteousness") the "far as the curse is found" creation DID need baptizing. So, guess old Jordan River got baptized!!! Well, the Birth of the Light got moved to the renewing of light/longer-days. The Son and the Sun...
There's your history lesson.
(What happens when my postings reach 666?)
Wislawa, what are you doing here?.......
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 12/19/2001 05:55:22 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 12/18/2001 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Oh No!!! PoW is going hit 666!!! It could be trouble. Just getting close to it has caused him to overdose on Exclamation points and make this thread so wide I can't read it without scrolling!
I heard Jesus was born in the summer, But the paschal lambs sound good.
PoW have I told you lately how much I appreciate what you bring to this board?
Now seems like a good time.  you da man.
Springs
"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal
Edited by - Springs on 12/18/2001 11:12:35 PM
Edited by - Springs on 12/18/2001 11:14:37 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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