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1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden [wisdom] which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2-3 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

1 Peter 1:20 He [Christ] indeed was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

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1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden [wisdom] which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2-3 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

1 Peter 1:20 He [=Christ] indeed was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

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what exactly God did ordain (or decree) before the foundation of the world.

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Well, What do you think of this? Let me stretch things more, and see what happens. Is this a gross oversimplification, or a crystallized clarification?

(No one to blame but me...I'm fair game, folks!!!)

I take the portion where Paul writes "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" to mean, in the simplest unit, that "before the foundation of the world" "He chose us-in-Him" as being the mode of our communion -- a communion of God-with-us. I don't look further than that. I don't look to find mechanical parts which detail the choosing of particular persons. (And because of that I don't feel pinched by the wonderful pronouncement that God does not desire any to perish, but all to be saved.) Looking above, the art teacher in me likes the "us-in-Him" as a visual element. And its pair: "God-with-us". Nice bookends!

In so doing, the aspect of our communion-with-God becomes the subject-at-hand; rather than who's-in-and-who's-not.

Seems to me that that fits very well with what follows, about "to be holy and blameless before Him in love."

What do you think of this?

PotOnWheel

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1 Corinthians 2:7 . . . the wisdom of God . . .ordained before the ages for our glory,

Ephesians 1:4 . . . He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

2 Timothy 1:9 . . . his own purpose and grace . . . given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2-3 . . . eternal life . . . promised before the world began . . .

1 Peter 1:20 He [Christ] . . . foreknown before the foundation of the world . . . for you

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WHAT is before the foundation of the world?

... we should identify what exactly God did ordain before the foundation of the world.

Is there a common bond between these passages? Do they all refer to the same thing?

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Do you have a direct response to this line of discussion?

But you did present self acclaimed “cool” thoughts, saying that God “IS” life, and that He is glorious, also God untangled sin, and was wrapped in clothes, lying in a manger, God is so “open”! And you like that sort of relational openness as opposed to the time stuff.

For the hope of “something” productive here, I will refrain from making my opinion known about your ,,, thoughts.

Still looking forward to a pointed relevant response according to the ongoing, albeit slow, discussion. See first quote in this post, and your post on this thread dated 11-26, for apparently “much” needed assistance.

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(p.s., 1way. I really think that what you were writing over on the other site about judging is very ungodly. Further I'd expect it much more from what you are calling a "Calvinist" than from what you are calling "openness".

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Which of my biblical arguments do you disagree with, and why? Or is this just another general personal subjective opinion that will not be biblically defended? Which particular site are you referring to? I occasion several forums and threads on this site, and several different Christian web sites as well. Why do you feel that having a good grasp of Christian morality and God’s criminal justice are more apt towards Calvinists instead of open theists? My experience lends no substantial contrast. But open theism is indeed a broad term and hardly confines one to a tight theology even though it generally serves well to eliminate a terrible and widespread falsehood about God and His ways. As to

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There is an interesting article on the Romanity site about how Augustine is responsible for Freud--in that some are predestined in both Augustine and Freud to be worth less.

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More extra-biblical emphasis. God’s word “IS” a worthwhile read. Some would even say, it’s even better than Romanity and Augustine and Freud.

God plainly and consistently teaches us to judge, and He never teaches us not to judge unless you judge like a hypocrite, but even then you are supposed to learn to judge non-hypocritically so you can judge others, so I find your suggested reading to be dubious at best. As to

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More than you asked for.

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Chuckles, perhaps, but it is (as usual), less than I hoped for, I always hope that folks will cling to God’s word for the shaping of their faith. As to grounded in scripture, I think you meant “grinding” scripture, there’s a difference.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, ...

John 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

“Judge not” is the hypocrite’s golden rule, “judge righteously” is the Godly teaching. If you disagree, please apologetically demonstrate why over the word of God, preferably over in the appropriate thread.

1way


Edited by - 1way on 12/30/2001 02:15:14 AM

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There is your answer.

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This is space saves to come back and detail an answer to 1way's question: "And I am not at all sure what the last poster intended by saying that Christ is elect."
Anyone else with a concordance is welcome to offer explanation too if you get here first.
PotOnWheel
P.S. And yes, 1way, it DOES address the issue of "what" very powerfully. THAT is what in the first post, and the verses you quoted of Chance's that attracted me to this thread. I bet that Chance knows.
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1WAY, I posted MORE below.
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See the post for: 12/29/2001 : 10:14:13 PM Its been in front of your nose.
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As to the word "ungodly" I had changed my post prior to this last one of yours. It now reads: "I really think that what you sometimes say about judging is very troubling. I'd expect seeing that much more from what you are calling a "Calvinist" than from what you are calling "openness"." And again, in answer to your question I said: "it seem likely that open theists would not give up on a person (The Freud and Augustine thing illustrated the point.) in comparison to the "Calvinism" that is really "Neo-Calvinism." THAT can be answered. And it was, in the Freud and Augustine example. If a person's worth is "settled" before their creation, then capital punishment on those who "don't count" is.... BUT, if their worth (also their relationship to God) is not settled, THEN Free Will is a God given edict...and we dare not interfere!"

So I changed it to "very troubling". I did this because I do not want to judge YOU. (I kind of wonder whether the founders of the Acts-niners got rid of all of their "Calvinistic" presupposition from their formative days--such as one sees in hyper-Calvinists who start schism at the drop of a doctrinal difference. The elevation of arguing doctrine to the level of priority as evangelism on the Acts-nine site hints in this direction. Presuppositions can be tricky. Let each "judge" themselves for themselves. ) But what I seemed to be reading of your position did trouble me, as being ungodly. It seemed based on unscriptural presupostions.

You have a whole thread here on this board where you detail your position quite openly. It troubled many.

I think that even Bob challenged you on that. He offered Galatians 5 (the fruit of the Spirit); but you contorted what he said to suit your own view. Haa hw answered you on your new thread?

There ARE many positive things in your posts, 1way. (The negativisms make answering you hard.)

I hope that that clarifies.


We agree on the series of verses that Chance offered. I just think that they are incompatable with your capital punishment position.

Edited by - potonwheel on 12/30/2001 3:57:41 PM

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This is space saves to come back and detail an answer to 1way's question: "And I am not at all sure what the last poster intended by saying that Christ is elect."

Anyone else with a concordance is welcome to offer explanation too if you get here first.

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But you knew that.

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Right, but the context of your original comment was not about the meaning of “Christ”, it was in response to... Oh, ,,, forget it, this is Chance’s discussion, perhaps he’ll help extract comments if he feels it necessary.

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YOU can REALLY go off some times--s I remember.

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(Smile) Ya (I know, the Truth is worth the hassle), but you should seek the other side, reconciliation and forgiveness (silent look and prayer), I’ve been hoping to find it sought every since it has been in want. You have now spoken to me with thoughtful and careful dignity and respect, and I dare say, you nearly seem to be genuinely hopeful for better. Ok, great, but go slow, I’m not sure I can take so much of a good thing all at once. But remember, just because I can be righteously judgmental, doesn’t mean I don’t care or that I consider myself without error. I did what I have done because I care, including admonishing over and over to get together over the holy word of God instead of so much manmade arguments and strife.

I agree with all your points about God pre-ordaining Christ to be our salvation, which should directly reflect upon God’s ready awareness that man, with some certainty, will sin. I’ve heard that there are openness proponents who say that sin was a surprise to God, although I have that by way of a third party, and I’ve seen almost constant misrepresentation of the open view every since my involvement for several years now. Thanks you three for make altogether making a good point, God seemed aware of the eventuality of sin, I fully agree.

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Peace to you! I mean it.

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? Thanks again POW, I already said thanks, and I mean it too.

1way

Edited by - 1way on 12/31/2001 2:45:49 PM