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|  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/3/2002 7:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | This is not to imply an endorsement, but when these links were posted back in July and August Doc commented that "this guy doesn't pull any punches."
Interesting reading from installments, in an e-mag.
http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Jan98/RiverFire.htm http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Mar98/RiverFire2.htm http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/May98/RiverFire3.htm http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Jul98/RiverFire4.htm http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Sep98/RiverFire5.htm http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Nov98/RiverFire6.htm http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Jan99/RiverFire7.htm
Read. Tell us what you think...
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 |  Semeia Registered Member
 Date Joined Aug 2001 Total Posts : 522 | Posted 1/3/2002 7:16 PM (GMT -6) |   | PoW, That was really powerful. Most of it I really really liked, although I mismatched on a couple of things. I will try to come back to it later and talk about some of the specifics.
Thanks for posting that.
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Mephi2K Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 713 | Posted 1/4/2002 4:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | Good stuff, POW. I want to do this BEFORE I start talking about this stuff.
Analogy time. This is how I'm seeing God potrayed.
The Sun, Daisies, and Cockroaches.
The sun shines. That's just what it does. Shines. Without regard for WHOM it shines upon. It shines upon everyone equally. And it never decides NOT to shines. It's energies just continue to radiate on down.
Now imagine you have a room with a window. On the window sill, you have some daisies. There's just enough sunlight coming from the window to aid the daisies growth. Interestingly enough, the daisies even seem to BEND towards the light in their growth. The room also has cockroaches. Cockroaches that like it nice and dark...so they can scurry around and thangs. The cockroaches HATE it when the sunlight comes through the window, so they always wait for cover of night.
Now, imagine some quirk of nature where it is the case where the sun shines 24 hours a day. Further suppose that both the daisies and the cockroaches are placed out in the plain span of this ever-coming sunlight. One can easily imagining the daisies standing straight up, just soaking it all up...while the cockroaches would be in veritable agony. For one, complete bliss. For the other, hell beyond belief.
Sun = God Daisies = God people Cockroaches = Anti-God people Room = Pre-consummation existence Outside = Post-consummation existence Daisies in sun = Heaven Cockroaches in sun = Hell
Humankind is COMPLETELY FREE to either behave like a daisy or like a cockroach. Thus the "heaven/hell" experience CANNOT be blamed on the "sun" but only on the choosers.
____________________________________
Is this what you see? Is this correct? Where not correct, please help me modify. It's very important that I get this down BEFORE I say anything else. Thanks.

PS: I hope everyone had a merry Christmas and Happy New Year. We made it to 2002, y'all. 
Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/4/2002 5:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Meph: The sun shines. That's just what it does. Shines. Without regard for WHOM it shines upon. It shines upon everyone equally. And it never decides NOT to shines. It's energies just continue to radiate on down
I'll throw up a flag right away. (Actually I really HATE seeing something that might be new to many eyes -- was to mine a year ago -- REDUCED to an analogy.) The BIG problem I see right away is that "just...just...just" is very impersonal. You've got the wrong religion, Meph! The Trinity is personal, and Communion is an ontological category.
I see by more reading that you are making your model be of heaven, and not earth. So this is not a selection analogy. But the factor of God's love being personal MUST NOT be forgotten. I think it was St. Isaac the Syrian (If not, I've posted this remark before with better documentation) that hoped that even the demons would eventually be saved. Impersonal love would just radiate energy (or something). God's personal love, in that monk's view, will continue to woo.
A thought.
OH, NO, I'VE GOTTEN TO HEAVY HANDED. SORRY, MEPH1
I want to avoid thinking of that "intensity" (your sunshine) as being impersonal. Actually, I think that it is more valuable for me to think of it as being personal, and that ITS VERY BEING PERSONAL is the thing that could make it so "intense" to those who turn away from God. (Maybe skip the cockroaches and have all flowers....and have some of the flowers, or plants with leaves, turn the wrong way. The analogy breaks down, though, when the protective coating on the top of tropical plants would seem to suggest that we need protection from God.) So the turning away from God would be waht puts them in danger -- which as said in the parenthesis, breaks down as an analogy. But personal is the thing.
Revelations speaks about Christ being the light of the city, both day and night. I don't know if there is any "protection for those 'in Christ; not available to others. (I don't think that anything needs such an explanation)
The personal communion, or eterniated attempt at avoiding that communion is a graphic image in itself.
Well, sorry for going on, and on, and on...
Your turn!
Edited by - potonwheel on 01/04/2002 10:31:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Mephi2K Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 713 | Posted 1/4/2002 5:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hmmmm...
Even MORE proof of how very VERY different we are...
To me, you are looking at my stuff WAY too harshly. Do you have an issue with my stuff as being "depersonalizing"? I'm thinking so. Why you think that an analogy that can help aid understanding concepts necessarily entails reductionism is beyond me. What's REALLY going on? 

Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/4/2002 5:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Meph: To me, you are looking at my stuff WAY too harshly.
PoW: I agree! (I went back--above--and modified. Then I RAMBLED!!!!)
Pretend I didn't post. Keep going. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Semeia Registered Member
 Date Joined Aug 2001 Total Posts : 522 | Posted 1/4/2002 5:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | Mephi, I read it exactly how you portray in your analogy. I'm a little confused about what PoW is reacting to. PoW? 
Thanks, Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/4/2002 5:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | Semeia, I've got two sources of reaction. First, I'm very visually oriented, and visual-organization oriented. When I read Meph's wonderful analogy it struck me like terror that most visitors to this thread would probably never click on any of the LINKS. I reacted. Dumb. But that's me. Second, The analogy--a good one--focuses on the element of OUR choice: "Thus the "heaven/hell" experience CANNOT be blamed on the "sun" but only on the choosers." That's good. But when I first read it I wizzed right past it. I saw only that someone, whomever, might possibly put all their attention on that, and not realize that god is always, always LOVE. And THAT I care about more than anything. What I wanted to see more of was that the Love continues. your analogy is effective in making it "not God's fault" if there is "wailing and knashing of teeth." But I jsut wanted something.....
(train of thought is gone....)
What Doc has written here about folks personalities becoming solidified/calcified/frozen/etc. (I don't remember thw phrase--someone maybe wants to post it.) applies well to this analogy!
Edited by - potonwheel on 01/04/2002 11:02:31 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/4/2002 8:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here are somre REALLY NICE EXCERPTS from "The River of Fire--A reply to the questions: Is God really good? Did God create hell"
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The author, a Dr. Kalomiros, was a an orthopedic surgeon in Thessalonica, Greece, and a writer of theological works in the community of St. John the Theologian in Thessalonica.
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We hate God, that is why we ignore Him, overlooking Him as if we did not see Him, and pretending to be atheists. In reality we consider Him our enemy par excellence. Our negation is our vengeance, our atheism is our revenge.
But why do men hate God? They hate Him not only because their deeds are dark while God is light, but also because they consider Him as a menace, as an imminent and eternal danger, as an adversary in court, as an opponent at law, as a public prosecutor and an eternal persecutor. To them, God is no more the almighty physician who came to save them from illness and death, but rather a cruel judge and a vengeful inquisitor.
You see, the devil managed to make men believe that God does not really love us, that He really only loves Himself, and that He accepts us only if we behave as He wants us to behave; that He hates us if we do not behave as He ordered us to behave, and is offended by our insubordination to such a degree that we must pay for it by eternal tortures, created by Him for that purpose.
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What is evil? Is it not the estrangement from God Who is Life?l Is it not death? What does Western theology teach about death? All Roman Catholics and most Protestants consider death as a punishment from God. God considered all men guilty of Adam1s sin and punished them by death, that is by cutting them away from Himself; depriving them of His live-giving energy, and so killing them spiritually at first and later bodily, by some sort of spiritual starvation. Augustine interprets the passage in Genesis "If you eat of the fruit of this tree, you will die the death" as "If you eat of the fruit of this tree, I will kill you."
The "God" of the West is an offended and angry God, full of wrath for the disobedience of men, who desires in His destructive passion to torment all humanity unto eternity for their sins, unless He receives an infinite satisfaction for His offended pride.
What is the Western dogma of salvation? Did not God kill God in order to satisfy His pride, which the Westerners euphemistically call justice? And is it not by this infinite satisfaction that He deigns to accept the salvation of some of us?
What is salvation for Western theology? Is it not salvation from the wrath of God?2
Do you see, then, that Western theology teaches that our real danger and our real enemy is our Creator and God? Salvation, for Westerners, is to be saved from the hands of God!
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This juridical conception of God, this completely distorted interpretation of God1s justice, was nothing else than the projection of human passions on theology. It was a return to the pagan process of humanizing God and deifying man. ..........
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Death was not inflicted upon us by God.l3 We fell into it by our revolt. God is Life and Life is God. We revolted against God, we closed our gates to His life-giving grace.l4 "For as much as he departed from life," wrote Saint Basil, "by so much did he draw nearer to death. For God is Life, deprivation of life is death."15 "God did not create death," continues Saint Basil, "but we brought it upon ourselves." "Not at all, however, did He hinder the dissolutionÖ so that He would not make the infirmity immortal in us."l6 As Saint Irenaeus puts it: "Separation from God is death, separation from light is darknessÖ and it is not the light which brings upon them the punishment of blindness."l7
"Death," says Saint Maximus the Confessor, "is principally the separation from God, from which followed necessarily the death of the body. Life is principally He who said, ëI am the Life.í"18
And why did death come upon the whole of humanity? Why did those who did not sin with Adam die as did Adam? Here is the reply of Saint Anastasius the Sinaite: "We became the inheritors of the curse in Adam. We were not punished as if we had disobeyed that divine commandment along with Adam; but because Adam became mortal, he transmitted sin to his posterity. We became mortal since we were born from a mortal."l9
And Saint Gregory Palamas makes this point: "[God] did not say to Adam: return to whence thou wast taken; but He said to him: Earth thou art and unto the earth thou shalt return.... He did not say: ëin whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, die!í but, ëin whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, ye shall surely die.í Nor did He afterwards say: ëreturn now unto the earth,í but He said, ëthou shalt return,í in this manner forewarning, justly permitting and not obstructing what shall come to pass."20 We see that death did not come at the behest of God but as a consequence of Adam1s severing his relations with the source of Life, by his disobedience; and God in His kindness did only warn him of it.
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Paradise or hell depends on how we will accept God1s love. Will we return love for love. or will we respond to His love with hate? This is the critical difference. And this difference depends entirely on us, on our freedom, on our innermost free choice, on a perfectly free attitude which is not influenced by external conditions or internal factors of our material and psychological nature, because it is not an external act but an interior attitude coming from the bottom of our heart, conditioning not our sins, but the way we think about our sins, as it is clearly seen in the case of the publican and the pharisee and in the case of the two robbers crucified with Christ. This freedom, this choice, this inner attitude toward our Creator is the innermost core of our eternal personality, it is the most profound of our characteristics, it is what makes us that which we are, it is our eternal faceóbright or dark, loving or hating.
No, my brothers, unhappily for us, paradise or hell does not depend on God. If it depended on God, we would have nothing to fear. We have nothing to fear from Love. But it does not depend on God. It depends entirely upon us, and this is the whole tragedy. God wants us to be in His image, eternally free. He respects us absolutely. This is love. Without respect, we cannot speak of love. We are men because we are free. If we were not free, we would be clever animals, not men. God will never take back this gift of freedom which renders us what we are. This means that we will always be what we want to be, friends or enemies of God, and there is no changing in this our deepest self. In this life, there are profound or superficial changes in our life, in our character, in our beliefs, but all these changes are only the expression in time of our deepest eternal self. This deep eternal self is eternal, with all the meaning of the word. This is why paradise and hell are also eternal. There is no changing in what we really are. Our temporal characteristics and our history in life depend on many superficial things which vanish with death, but our real personality is not superficial and does not depend on changing and vanishing things. It is our real self. It remains with us when we sleep in the grave, and will be our real face in the resurrection. It is eternal.
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The Light of Truth, God1s Energy, God1s grace which will fall on men unhindered by corrupt conditions in the Day of Judgment, will be the same to all men. There will be no distinction whatever. All the difference lies in those who receive, not in Him Who gives. The sun shines on healthy and diseased eyes alike, without any distinction. Healthy eyes enjoy light and because of it see clearly the beauty which surrounds them. Diseased eyes feel pain, they hurt, suffer, and want to hide from this same light which brings such great happiness to those who have healthy eyes.
But alas, there is no longer any possibility of escaping God1s light. During this life there was. In the New Creation of the Resurrection, God will be everywhere and in everything. His light and love will embrace all. There will be no place hidden from God, as was the case during our corrupt life in the kingdom of the prince of this world.4l The devilís kingdom will be despoiled by the Common Resurrection and God will take possession again of His creation.42 Love will enrobe everything with its sacred Fire which will flow like a river from the throne of God and will irrigate paradise. But this same river of Loveófor those who have hate in their heartsówill suffocate and burn.
"For our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). The very fire which purifies gold, also consumes wood. Precious metals shine in it like the sun, rubbish burns with black smoke. All are in the same fire of Love. Some shine and others become black and dark. In the same furnace steel shines like the sun, whereas clay turns dark and is hardened like stone.
The difference is in man, not in God. The difference is conditioned by the free choice of man, which God respects absolutely. God1s judgment is the revelation of the reality which is in man.
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Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God1s love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his fatherís estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his fatherís love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brotherís return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his fatherís house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in oneís heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God1s Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God1s New Creation, nor hide from God1s tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love. And what is more terrible is that in this eternal life, in this New Creation, God is everything to His creatures.
Edited by - potonwheel on 01/04/2002 2:27:22 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/4/2002 9:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | OFTEN FOOTNOTES CAN BE INTERESTING READING. ENCAPSULATED GEMS. THESE ARE NO EXCEPTION.
THE WHOLE ARTICLE USED TO BE AVAILABLE ON THE WEB. IT WAS AT FRANKY SCHAEFFER'S E-MAG.
Notes:
CHAPTER II
1 "This is evil: estrangement from God." St. Basil the Great, That God is Not the Cause of Evils, {Ellhne~ Patevre~ th`~ íEkklhsiva~ [Greek Fathers of the Church] 7, 112 (hereafter cited as EPE). "As manyÖ as stand apart in their will from God, He brings upon them separation from Himself; and separation from God is death." St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 5. 27.2. "Men, rejecting eternal things and through the counsel of the devil turning toward the things of corruption, became the cause to themselves of the corruption in death." St. Athanasius the Great On the Incarnation 5 (Migne, PG 25.104-105)."For as much as he departed from life, just so much did he draw nearer to death. For life is God; deprivation of life is death. So Adam was the author of death to himself through his departure from God." St. Basil the Great (PG 31. 345 ) .
2 "The redemptive sacrificeÖwas accomplished in order to reestablish the formerly harmonious relation between heaven and earth which sin had overturned, to atone for the flounted moral law, to satisfy the affronted justice of God." Encyclical Letter for Pascha 1980 of Ecumenical Patriarch Demetrios, Episkepsis (in Greek), no. 229, 15 April 1980.
3 "Truly foolish, therefore, and lacking all understanding and mind is he who says there is no God. Alongside him no less in this madness is he who says that God is the cause of evils. I consider their sins to be of equal gravity because each one similarly denies the good; the former denies that He exists at all, while the latter defines Him as not being good; for if he is the cause of evils, He is clearly not good; so from both sides there is a denial of God." St. Basil the Great, EPE, op. cit., 7, 90.
CHAPTER IV
4 "But someone will say, verily Adam fell, and by disregarding the divine commandment he was condemned to corruption and death, but how were the many made sinful on his account? What do his transgressions have to do with us? How is it that we who were not even born were condemned along with him, and yet God says, ëThe fathers shall not be put to death for the children and the sons shall not be put to death for the fathers; everyone shall die in his own siní? (Deut. 24:18). Surely, then, that soul that sins shall die; but we became sinners through the disobedience of Adam in this way: For Adam was created for incorruption and life, and his life in the Paradise of delight was holy, his whole mind was continually caught up in divine visions, and his body was tranquil and serene, since every shameful pleasure was calmed, for there was no disturbance of intemperate emotions in him. However, since he fell under sin and sank into corruption, thence pleasures and pollutions penetrated into the nature of the flesh, and so there was planted in our members a savage law. Nature became diseased with sin through the disobedience of the one, i.e, Adam; thus the many also became sinners, not as transgressing together with Adamófor they did not exist at allóbut as being from his nature which had fallen under the law of sinÖ because of disobedience, human nature in Adam became infirm with corruption, and so the passions were introduced into it.... " St. Cyril of Alexandria Interpretation of the Epistle to the Romans (PG 74. 788-789). "And furthermore, if they who were born from Adam became sinners on account of his sinning, in all justice, they are not liable, for they did not become sinners of themselves; therefore the term "sinners" is used instead of "mortals" because death is the penalty of sin. Since in the first-fashioned man nature became mortal, all they who share in the nature of the forefather consequently share mortality also." Euthymios Zigabenos, Interpretation of the Epistle to the Romans, 5:19.
5 It means something totally different from what we customarily mean by the term "justice." This ignorance has caused us to consider as touchstones of Orthodoxy some very strange theories, most particularly the juridical conception of salvation which is based upon a justice that resembles the Necessity (íAnavgkh) of the ancients, and oppresses not only man but God also, and gives a gloomy aspect to Christianity. See the relevant study of S. Lynonnett "La Soteriologie Paulienne," Introduction a la Bible 11, (Belgium: Desclées & Bower), p. 840.
6 "If a man readily and joyfully accepts a loss for the sake of God, he is inwardly pure. And if he does not look down upon any man because of his defects, in very truth he is free. If a man is not pleased with someone who honors him, nor displeased with someone who dishonors him, he is dead to the world and to this life. The watchfulness of discernment is superior to every discipline of men accomplished in any way to any degree.
"Do not hate the sinner. For we are all laden with guilt. If for the sake of God you are moved to oppose him, weep over him. Why do you hate him? Hate his sins and pray for him, that you may imitate Christ Who was not wroth with sinners, but interceded for them. Do you not see how He wept over Jerusalem? We are mocked by the devil in many instances, so why should we hate the man who is mocked by him who mocks us also? Why, O man, do you hate the sinner? Could it be because he is not so righteous as you? But where is your righteousness when you have no love? Why do you not shed tears over him? But you persecute him. In ignorance some are moved with anger, presuming themselves to be discerners of the works of sinners.
"Be a herald of God1s goodness, for God rules over you, unworthy though you are; for although your debt to Him is so great, yet He is not seen exacting payment from you, and from the small works you do, He bestows great rewards upon you. Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright (cf. Ps. 24:8, 144:17), His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. ëHe is good,í He says, ëto the evil and to the impiousí (cf. Luke 6:35). How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? ëFriend, I do thee no wrong I will give unto this last even as unto thee. Is thine eye evil because I am good?í (Matt. 20:12-15). How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? (Luke 15:11 ff.). None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it; and thus He bare witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God1s justice, for whilst we are sinners Christ died for us! (cf. Rom. 5:8). But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change [i.e., as regards the state after death, which St. Isaac mentions again a little below] .
"Far be it that we should ever think such an iniquity that God could become unmerciful! For the property of Divinity does not change as do mortals. God does not acquire something which He does not have, nor lose what He has, nor supplement what He does have, as do created beings. But what God has from the beginning, He will have and has until the [unending] end, as the blest Cyril wrote in his commentary on Genesis. Fear God, he says, out of love for Him, and not for the austere name that He has been given. Love Him as you ought to love Him; not for what He will give you in the future, but for what we have received, and for this world alone which He has created for us. Who is the man that can repay Him? Where is His repayment to be found in our works? Who persuaded Him in the beginning to bring us into being? Who intercedes for us before Him, when we shall possess no [faculty of] memory, as though we never existed? Who will awake this our body [Syriac: our corruption] for that life? Again, whence descends the notion of knowledge into dust? O the wondrous mercy of God! O the astonishment at the bounty of our God and Creator! O might for which all is possible! O the immeasurable goodness that brings our nature again, sinners though we be, to His regeneration and rest! Who is sufficient to glorify Him? He raises up the transgressor and blasphemer, he renews dust unendowed with reason, making it rational and comprehending and the scattered and insensible dust and the scattered senses He makes a rational nature worthy of thought. The sinner is unable to comprehend the grace of His resurrection. Where is gehenna, that can afflict us? Where is perdition, that terrifies us in many ways and quenches the joy of His love? And what is gehenna as compared with the grace of His resurrection, when He will raise us from hades and cause our corruptible nature to be clad in incorruption, and raise up in glory him that has fallen into Hades?
"Come, men of discernment, and be filled with wonder! Whose mind is sufficiently wise and marvelous to wonder worthily at the bounty of our Creator? His recompense of sinners is, that instead of a just recompense, He rewards them with resurrection, and instead of those bodies with which they trampled upon His law, He enrobes them with perfect glory and incorruption [St. Isaac speaks here of those who have repented, as is evident from other similar passages in his book.] That grace whereby we are resurrected after we have sinned is greater than the grace which brought us into being when we were not. Glory be to Thine immeasurable grace, O Lord! Behold, Lord, the waves of Thy grace close my mouth with silence, and there is not a thought left in me before the face of Thy thanksgiving. What mouths can confess Thy praise, O good King, Thou Who lovest our life? Glory be to Thee for the two worlds which Thou hast created for our growth and delight, leading us by all things which Thou didst fashion to the knowledge of Thy glory, from now and unto the ages. Amen." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 60.
7 Ibid.
8 "ëFor God so loved the world as to give His Only-begotten Son unto death for it.í Not that He could not have redeemed us by another means, but He wished to manifest to us His boundless love, and to draw us near Him through the death of His Only-begotten Son. Indeed, if He had anything more precious than His Son, He would have given it for our sakes, in order that through it our race would be found nigh to Him. Out of His abundant love, He was not pleased to do violence to our freedom, although it was possible for Him to do so; but He let it be in order that we would draw nigh to Him with the love and volition of our own will." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 81.
9 "In times of despondency, never fail to bear in mind the Lordís commandment to Peter, to forgive a person who sins seventy times seven. For He who gave this command to another will Himself do far more." St. John Climacus, Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 26, (Boston: Holy Transfiguration Monastery, 1978), p. 147.
10 "A man who is just and wise is like God because he never chastises a man in revenge for wickedness, but only in order to correct him, or that others be afraid." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 73. "God granted this great benefit to man: that he not abide in sin unto eternity." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus 2.26.
11 "And God saw all the things that He had made, and behold, they were very good." Genesis 1:31 " [God] created everything whIch has good qualities, but the profligacy of the demons has made use of the productions of nature for evil purposes, and the appearance of evil which these wear is from them and not from the perfect God." Tatian Address to the Greeks 17. "The construction of the world is good, but the life men live in it is bad." Ibid. 19. "For nothing from the first was made evil by God, but things good, yea, very good." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus 2.17. "Pour líhebreau, le sensible níest pas mauvais, ni fautif. Le mal ne vient pas de la matiere. Le monde est tres bon." ["For the Hebrew, perceptible things are not evil, nor are they deceptive lit., erroneous). Evil does not come from matter. The world is ëvery good,í"] C. Tresmontant, Essai sur la Pensee Hebraique Paris 1953). "There is nothing that exist which does not partake of the beautiful and the good." St. Dionysius the Areopagite On The Divine Names ( Pg 3. 704). "For even if the reasons why some things come about escape us, let that dogma be certain in our souls that nothing evil is done by the good." St. Basil the Great, ElIE 7, 112. "For it is not the part of a god to incite to things against nature... But God, being perfectly good, is eternally doing good." Athenagoras, Embassy, 26.
I2 "The devil is evil in such wise that he is evil in disposition, but not that his nature is opposed to good." St. Basil the Great, EPE, 7, 112. "Since God is good, whatever he does, He does for manís sake. But whatever man does, he does for his own sake, both what is good and what is evil."Philokalia, vol. 1, chapter 121, St. Anthony the Great.
l3 "For God made not death, neither hath He pleasure in the destruction of the living, for he created all things that they might have their being, and the generations of the world were healthful, and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of Hades upon the earth." Wisdom of Solomon 1:13-14. "For God created man to be immortal and made him to be in an image of his own eternity. Nevertheless, through envy of the devil came death into the world." Wisdom of Solomon 2:23-24.
14 "And so he who was made in the likeness of God, since the more powerful spirit [the Holy Spirit] is separated from him, becomes mortal." Tatian Address to the Greeks 7.
15 "For as much as he departed from life, just so much did he draw nearer to death. For God is life; deprivation of life is death. So Adam was the author of death to himself through his departure from God, in accordance with the scripture which says ëFor behold, they that remove themselves from Thee shall perish.í" Psalm 72:27.
16 "Thus God did not create death, but we brought it upon ourselves out of an evil disposition. Nevertheless, He did not hinder the dissolution on account of the aforementioned causes, so that He would not make the infirmity immortal in us." St. Basil the Great (PG 31. 345).
17 "But as many as depart from God by their own choice, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness.... It is not, however, that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of darkness." St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 5. 27:2. "But others shun the light and separate themselves from God...." Ibid., 5. 28:1.
18 Philokalia, vol. 2, p. 27 (Greek edition), St. Maximus the Confessor.
19 "We became the inheritors of the curse in Adam. Certainly we were not punished as though we had disobeyed that command along with him, but because he became mortal, he transmitted the sin to his seed; we were born mortals from a mortal." St. Anastasius the Sinaite, 19. Vide íI. N. Karmivrh, Suvnoyi~ Dofmatikh`~ Didaskaliva~ th`~ íOrqodovxou Kaqolikh`~ íEkklhsiva~, p. 38.
20 "Manís transgression against the Creatorís righteousness brought the soulís death sentence into effect; for when our forefathers forsook God and chose to do their own will, He abandoned them, not subjecting them to constraint. And for the reasons we have stated above, God lovingly forewarned them of this sentence. But he forbore and delayed in executing the sentence of death upon the body; and while He pronounced it, He relegated its fruition to the future in the abyss of His wisdom and the superabundance of His love for man. He did not say to Adam ëreturn to whence thou wast taken,í but ëearth thou art, and unto earth thou shalt returní (Gen. 3:19). Those who hear this with understanding can also comprehend from these words that God ëdid not make deathí (Wisdom 1:13), either the soulís or the bodyís. For when He first gave the command, He did not say ëin whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, die!,í but ëIn whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, ye shall surely dieí (Gen. 2:17). Nor did He afterwards say ëreturn now unto earth,í but ëThou shalt returní (Gen. 3:19), in this manner forewarning, justly permitting and not obstructing what should come to pass." St. Gregory Palamas Physical Theological Moral and Practical Chapters 51 (PG 1157-1160).
21 "The tree of knowledge itself was good, and its fruit was good. For it was not the tree that had death in it, as some think, but the disobedience which had death in it; for there was nothing else in the fruit but knowledge alone; but knowledge is good when one uses it properly." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus 2. 25. "The tree did not engender death, for God did not create death; but death was the consequence of disobedience." St. John Damascene Homily on Holy Saturday 10 (PG 96. 612a).
CHAPTER V
22 "ëAnd what is a merciful heart?í It is the heartís burning for the sake of the entire creation, for men, for birds, for animals, for demons and for every created thing; and by the recollection and sight of them the eyes of a merciful man pour forth abundant tears. From the strong and vehement mercy which grips his heart and from his great compassion, his heart is humbled and he cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in creation. For this reason he continually offers up tearful prayer, even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth and for those who harm him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner he even prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns in his heart without measure in the likeness of God." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 81.
23 "It is not God who is hostile, but we; for God is never hostile." St. John Chrysostom (PG 61. 478).
CHAPTER Vl
24 Vide. íI. S. Rwmanidvh~, Tov Propatorikovn íAmavrthma (Athens, 1957).
CHAPTER Vll
25 "Therefore, we believe in one God one principle, without beginning, uncreated, unbegotten, indestructible and immortal, eternal, unlimited, uncircumscribed, unbounded, infinite in power, simple, uncompounded, incorporeal, unchanging, unaffected, unchangeable, inalterate, invisible, source of goodness and justice, light intellectual and inaccessible; power which no measure can give any idea of but which is measured only by His own will, for He can do all things whatsoever He pleases; Maker of all things both visible and invisible, holding together all things and conserving them, Provider for all, governing and dominating and ruling over all in unending and immortal reign; without contradiction, filling all things, contained by nothing, but Himself containing all things, being their Conserver and first Possessor; pervading all substances without being defiled, removed far beyond all things and every substance as being supersubstantial and surpassing all, super-eminently divine and good and replete; appointing all the principalities and orders, set above every principality and order, above essence and life and speech and concept; light itself and goodness and being insofar as having neither being, nor anything else that is derived from any other; the very source of being for all things that are, of life to the living, of speech to the articulate, and the cause of all good things for all; knowing all things before they begin to be; one substance, one godhead, one virtue, one will, one operation, one principality, one power, one domination, one kingdom; known in three perfect Persons and adored with one adoration, believed in and worshipped by every rational creature, united without confusion and distinct without separation, which is beyond understanding. We believe in Father and Son and Holy Spirit in Whom we have been baptized. For it is thus that the Lord enjoined the apostles ëBaptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.í" St. John Damascene Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 1. 8.
26 "He created without matter." St. John Chrysostom (PG 59. 308).
27 St. John Damascene, op. cit. 1.14.
28 St. John Damascene, op. cit. 1. 8.
29 "The soul without the body can do nothing, whether good or evil. The visions which some see concerning those things that are yonder are shown to them by God as a dispensation for their profit. Just as the lyre remains useless and silent if there is no one to play, so the soul and body, when they are separated, can do nothing." St. Athanasius the Great.
CHAPTER Vlll
30 "For each of these, after its kind, is a body, be it angel, or soul, or devil. Subtle though they are, still in substance, character, and image according to the subtlety of their respective natures they are subtle bodies." St. Macarius the Great, Fifty Spiritual Homilies, 4, 9.
31 "Let us go and behold in the tombs that man is bare bones, food for worms and a stench." Great Euchologion, (Venice, 1862), p. 415. "For just as the light when it sets in the evening is not lost, so man also is given over to the grave as if setting; yet he is preserved for the dawn of the resurrection." St. John Chrysostom .
CHAPTER X
32 "He who berates the Creator for not making us sinless by nature, does naught but esteem the irrational nature above the rational." St. Bsasil the Great, EPE, 7, 110.
CHAPTER Xll
33 Also, "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward." Hebrews l0:35 .
34 "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Mosesí law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:26-31.
35 St. Basil the Great, op. cit. 7, 94-96. In this particular passage, St. Basil carefully makes a distinction between the Greek verbs ktivzw and dhmiourgevw both of which are generally translated into English as "create." However, ktivzw has a long history, beginning with the Sanskrit kshi, which, as in early Greek, meant "to people a country," "to build houses and cities," "to colonize." Later, in Greek, the word came to mean "to establish," "to build up and develop," and finally, "to produce," "create," "bring about." Having in mind these other connotations of the verb ktivzw St. Basil discerned the proper implication of the word in this context and hence made a point of emphasizing this distinction.
36 Ibid. 7.98.
37 St. Gregory the Theologian Fifth Theological Oration 22 (PG 36. 157).
38 St. John Damascene, op. cit. 1.11.
CHAPTER Xlll
39 "Famines and droughts and floods are common plagues of cities and nations which check the excess of evil. Therefore, just as the physician is a benefactor even if he should cause pain or suffering to the body (for he strives with the disease, and not with the sufferer), so in the same manner God is good Who administers salvation to everyone through the means of particular chastisements. But you, not only do you not speak evilly of the physician who cuts some members, cauterizes others, and excises others again completely from the body, but you even give him money and address him as saviour because he confines the disease to a small area before the infirmity can claim the whole body. However, when you see a city crushing its inhabitants in an earthquake, or a ship going down at sea with all hands, you do not shrink from wagging a blasphemous tongue against the true Physician and Saviour." St. Bsasil the Great, op. cit. 7, 94. "And you may accept the phrase ëI kill and I will make to liveí (Deut. 32:39) literally, if you wish, since fear edifies the more simple. ëI will smite and I will healí (Deut. 32:39). It is profitable to also understand this phrase literally; for the smiting engenders fear, while the healing incites to love. It is permitted you, nonetheless, to attain to a loftier understanding of the utterance. I will slay through sin and make to live through righteousness. ëBut though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by dayí (11 Cor. 4:16). Therefore, He does not slay one, and give life to another, but through the means which He slays, He gives life to a man, and He heals a man with that which He smites him, according to the proverb which says, ëFor thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from deathí (Prov. 23:14). So the flesh is chastised for the soul to be healed, and sin is put to death for righteousness to live.... When you hear ëThere shall be no evil in a city which the Lord hath not wroughtí (cf. Amos 3:6), understand by the noun ëevilí that the word intimates the tribulation brought upon sinners for the correction of offenses. For Scripture says, ëFor I afflicted thee and straitened thee, to do good to theeí (cf. Deut. 8:3); so too is evil terminated before it spills out unhindered, as a strong dike or wall holds back a river.
"For these reasons, diseases of cities and nations, droughts, barrenness of the earth, and the more difficult conditions in the life of each, cut off the increase of wickedness. Thus, such evils come from God so as to uproot the true evils, for the tribulations of the body and all painful things from without have been devised for the restraining of sin. God, therefore, excises evil; never is evil from God.... The razing of cities, earthquakes and floods, the destruction of armies, shipwrecks and all catastrophes with many casualties which occur from earth or sea or air or fire or whatever cause, happen for the sobering of the survivors, because God chastises public evil with general scourges.
"The principal evil, therefore, which is sin, and which is especially worthy of the appellation of evil, depends upon our disposition; it depends upon us either to abstain from evil or to be in misery.
"Of the other evils, some are shown to be struggles for the proving of courageÖ while some are for the healing of sinsÖ and some are for an example to make other men sober." St. Basil the Great, op. cit. 7, 98-102.
40 ibid. 7, 92.
CHAPTER XIV
41 "The devil became the ëPrince of matter."í Athenagoras, Embassy, 24, 25. "They [the demons] afterwards subdued the human race to themselvesÖ andÖ sowed all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations which they related, ascribed them to God Himself." St. Justin Martyr Second Apology 5 .
42 "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." I John 3:8.
CHAPTER XVII
43 Fotis Kontoglou, "íEkklhsiastikav íHmepolovia," íOrqovdoxo~ Tuvpo~ ["Church Calendars," Orthodoxos Typos] 131 (Athens), 1 January 1971.
44 St. Basil the Great, Homily 13 . 2, Exhortation to Holy Baptism (PG 31. 428 and 95, 1272).
45 ëBiblioqhvkh íEllhvnwn Patevrwn [Library of Greek Fathers], vol. 40, pp. 60-61.
CHAPTER XVIII
46 "I am father, I am brother, I am bridegroom, I am dwelling place, I am food, I am raiment, I am root, I am foundation, all whatsoever thou willest, I am.í ëBe thou in need of nothing, I will be even a servant, for I came to minister, not to be ministered unto; I am friend, and member, and head, and brother, and sister, and mother; I am all; only cling thou closely to me. I was poor for thee, and a wanderer for thee, on the Cross for thee, in the tomb for thee, above I intercede for thee to the Father; on earth I am come for thy sake an ambassador from my Father. Thou art all things to me, brother, and joint heir, and friend, and member. 3What wouldest thou more?" St. John Chrysostom, Homily 76 on the Gospel of Matthew (PG 58. 700).
47 "The end of the world signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation. Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds. Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience! All will become clear to the human conscience. The Prophet Daniel, speaking of the Last Judgement, relates how the Ancient of Days, the Judge, sits on His throne, and before Him is a fiery stream (Dan. 7:9-10). Fire is a purifying element; it burns sins. Woe to a man if sin has become a part of his nature: then the fire will burn the man himself.
"This fire will be kindled within a man: seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instanfty. The very state of a manís soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left.
"The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears ëCome unto Me, ye blessed.í And conversely the same words will call the fire of horror and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime!
"The Last Judgement knows of no witnesses or written protocols! Everything is inscribed in the souls of men and these records, these ëbooksí, are opened at the Judgement. Everything becomes clear to all and to oneself.
"And some will go to joy, while othersóto horror.
"When ëthe books are opened,í it will become clear that the roots of all vices lie in the human soul. Here is a drunkard or a lecher: when the body has died, some may think that sin is dead too. No! There was an inclination to sin in the soul, and that sin was sweet to the soul, and if the soul has not repented of the sin and has not freed itself from it, it will come to the Last Judgement also with the same desire for sin. It will never safisty that desire and in that soul there will be the suffering of hatred. It will accuse everyone and everything in its tortured condition, it will hate everyone and everything. ëThere will be gnashing of teethí of powerless malice and the unquenchable fire of hatred.
"A fiery gehennaíósuch is the inner fire. Here there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.í Such is the state of hell." Archbishop John Maximovitch, "The Last Judgement," Orthodox Word (November December, 1966) 177-78. [Archbishop John was glorified as a saint in 1995. ed.]
Edited by - potonwheel on 01/04/2002 2:33:45 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/5/2002 11:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | Meph & Semeia, I ask your forgiveness. I don't mean to put a cork in any discussion. I'm going to sit out for a while -- had to get the above on the board.
Please continue.
- PoW | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Semeia Registered Member
 Date Joined Aug 2001 Total Posts : 522 | Posted 1/5/2002 11:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | PoW, You don't need to say that-- you didn't shut anyone down. I was just trying to understand what you meant. And I didn't come back to the discussion because I am TRYING to stay AWAY from the board for a while, in spite of how it looks! 
I did find the material interesting, and I would like to try to understand it better and discuss it more at some point in the future.
I'm an addict. Pray for me to stay away from this board.
Thanks, Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/27/2002 5:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | | I'm putting this one up to the top, for June and others. | | Back to Top | | |
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