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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/9/2002 5:07 AM (GMT -6) |   | Why did God create the world? Why does God allow people to go to Hell? Why did God send Christ to death? The answers may appear easy, but depending upon how one interprets these answers through the Bible, entire theologies can be discredited.
In his discussion of divine foreknowledge in Satan & the Problem of Evil, Boyd says, "Classical Calvinists are consistent in claiming that God does it [creates humans that will go to Hell] for a higher purpose: his own glory" (p. 88).
The other option, which Doc defends, is that the universe was created for the purpose of love. As Boyd cites on p. 51, H. D. McDonald claims, "The world is built for [God's] love. God is the Great Cosmic Loveer. . . . He is the ultimate Agape. . . . He loves and wants to be loved by us." So which is it? I don't see how any open-theist could claim glory without being completely inconsistant, in the same way a "Classical Calvinist" would be inconsistant by appealing to a love-centered creation.
God's glory is throughout scripture. God saved the Israelites from Egypt for his own glory (Psalm 106:7-8). Christ was sent to earth and killed for God's glory (John 12:27-29, 13:31-32, 17:24). If we centered our understanding of scripture around God's glory, we would understand that since all of us are evil sinners (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:10), we deserve death just like the sinners who were crucified with Christ (Luke 23:41). The only way any would be saved would be because of God's glory (Galatians 1:15). Although God wills all to repent and go to heaven (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9), He would create individuals that would justly go to Hell because they deserve it, for his own glory (this is not reprobation).
On the opposite end of the spectrum, we have love. The Bible affirms that God planned Christ's death before the world began to show love and kindness (2 Tim 1:9). Jesus prayed that men would love Him (John 17:23), and he was killed so that God's love would be displayed (1 Jn 4:9). In fact, God is love (1 Jn 4:8). With this love-centered view, God genuinely tries to call back his creation from the sinful state of slavery they are in. Through this view, the open-view is intelligible.
We can cling to one view and simply disregard the scriptures emphasizing the other. Instead of using your theology about soteriology or divine foreknowledge to dictate your understanding of God's glory and love, for the purposes of this discussion, allow the answer to this question to rest solely on direct Biblical evidence. Also, resist the temptation of worshipping a God who you have subjectively bent and molded into what you want to worship. Its easy to say "God is love" and ignore the holiness and glory of God simply because it gives us a nice rosy picture. By denying any of God's attributes, we get a distorted image of God (EX: Emphasizing only love can lead to universalism. Emphasizing only sovereignty can lead to fatalistic hard-determinism, etc.)
I have been wrestling with this question of God's motives for awhile and would appreciate some feedback.
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation)
Edited by - jewgrass on 01/09/2002 10:10:22 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 1/9/2002 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Excellent topic, and one that I have mulled over for quite some time. What I finally determined in my mind was that there is no real conflict between God's love and His desire for glory.
I believe that God's love is the ultimate motivation of His desire for glory. Although glory is one of His primary purposes for creation, His ultimate purpose is our eternal good. His desire for glory is a subset of His love for us.
Why? Because He knows that the greatest good will only come to us if He is the focus of our attention, i.e., if He is the object of our glorification.
So God's desire for glory is motivated by His desire for our eternal good (love).
Yes? No? Maybe?
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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PhD MP
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 1/9/2002 2:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass:
You seem to believe that God's glory and God's love are either paradoxically coexistent or outright contradictions. However, the NT writers embraced the cross as the event in which God's love is gloriously victorious.
For example, Christ triumphed through the humiliating death of the Cross. And the sufferings of Christ are extended through his people who continue to suffer with him in the advancement of his Kingdom.
The way to glory is still down, not up, according to Phil. 2. He who humbles himself will be exalted, Jesus and James tell us.
Only at the eschatological consummation will all suffering for glory cease. In this world, until everything is brought into subjection under Christ, glory is still acheived through the suffering of those faithful to the King who awaits his ultimate and final victory.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/9/2002 2:20 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm supposedly imposting absence from this board upon myself. But....
I wonder about this "glory" that gets in print. It is not really a contemporary word. It feels awkward to talk the things posted above, as it sounds, to my ear, "old." Or maybe it is contemporary, as in sports talk or mega-stars. The glory and the limelight/spotlight, glamour, fame...
But I know of another use of that word too -- that's less abstract. I'll leave it to others -- I should be gone again by now... -- to pull up the verses, if they want. But the noun, of the Glory of God, describing the energies of God that made Moses face radiate. That is "glory." What about THAT as a key to unlock something? "The glory of the Lord shall be revealed" (Handel's Messiah, from the Bible). "We beheld his glory, glory..." (Am I misquoateing 1 John, doing OK, or is it from wsomewhere else.) -- THAT is THIS use of glory, I believe; even if a bit figurative. But, ACTUALLY, John DID beheld THAT glory at the Transfiguration! he's covered.
Bye... | | Back to Top | | |
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anewbeginning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 1/9/2002 2:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jewgrass:
I'm a little confused. I can see how "love" is absent from the hard Calvinist view, but I don't see how "glory" is missing from the openness view. If punishing sinners "glorifies" God, He is glorified in both systems. As far as I understand it, those who die under sin in both systems recieve just punishment. The difference being whether or not God decides their eternal fate. Is it more "glorious" for God to create some simply for destruction? I have a hard time seeing that.
God bless
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