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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/16/2003 3:41 AM (GMT -6) |   |
The Inconceivable is
conceived in the womb of a Virgin
the Unmeasurable becomes three cubits high,
the Unqualifiable acquires a quality;
the Undefinable stands up, sits down, and lies down;
He who is everywhere is put into a crib;
He who is above time gradually reaches the age of twelve;
He who is formless appears with the shape of a man,
and the Incorporeal enters into a body. . . .
Therefore, He is describable and indescribable.
(Theodore the Studite)
Italian, Giovanni Pisano, the Nativity, 1302-10
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honorman
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| Posted 12/16/2003 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | "Above time." Hmmh, haven't we been there before?  | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/16/2003 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | As per honorman's sticking on "above time" it might be pointed out that the main discussion of this site is only a contemporary sidetrack. Theodore's verse neither takes the "classical" nor the "open" possition -- and imagines neither. (Any more than it conscerns itself with Calvinism or Armineanism.) So here's what he really said:
"He who is above time gradually reaches the age of twelve..."
Taken in parallel, "above" is contrasted to "gradual." (The "classical" versus "open" gives a single specific definition whenever it says "above." But in the Fathers God is never devorced from time in the manner Open folk accuse the "classical.")
Time is part of the Creation, and it certainly is part of the economy of salvation, and of our fellowship in Christ. So, since the Incarnation and the ascension, time has a very special place in God's heart based on that incarnation of humanity to the Person of the Son. But, likewise, in the same way that Christ's divinity was unchanged in the Incarnation, neither did the incarnation introduce time 'into' the Trinity.
But as honorman said, "haven't we been there before?"
SO, just look at what Theodore said. This is HIS thread.
* He who DOES NOT "gradually reach" anything, Did.
The incarnation introduced the element of time and progression into the Personal experience of one of the Godhead. One of the Godhead experienced time first-hand and close-up. One of the Godhead DIED too. And taking death to his person he made the power of death (corruption, as a perversion of what time was created to be) and redeemed time. And his ascension to heaven cemented that restoration of time. And some day that shall be ours too -- continual becoming. Rest that is not static. Etc.
(Howdy, h.m.)
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/16/2003 10:52 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by PotOnWheel
He who DOES NOT "gradually reach" anything, Did.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/16/2003 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | |
From Meditations on Mary:
Georges de la Tour
The Nativity
Musee des Beaux-Arts
Rennes, France | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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| Posted 12/16/2003 12:45 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 12/16/2003 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/17/2003 3:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
Just a little jab, POW! Merry Christmas
"Freuliche Weihnachten" zu Ihned auch!
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/17/2003 3:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Nice sfumato, POW.
Take your time, look it up, I'll wait. 
Time elapsed: 1.5 seconds.
Answer: smokey look -- that's what the Italian word means. Notice the softened edges on DeLaTour's figures, melding the form into the overwelming darkness they inhabit -- pierced only by the "Light" of Christ.
Corollary: Leonardo Da Vinci had a particular sort of sfumato called chairoscuro that resulted from a buildup of lines, making the exact location of a form's boundaries not just impossible to determine, but aiding the impression that it is not "staturesque" but alive and constantly changing its location in space.
(ART-181 meets either once weekly for three hours or M/W/F for fifty minutes.) | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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| Posted 12/17/2003 7:03 AM (GMT -6) | | | POW: am reading "Open Doors," by Green. Good intro to icons. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2003 10:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
POW: am reading "Open Doors," by Green. Good intro to icons.
This one?
quote:
The Open Door: Entering the Sanctuary of Icons and Prayer
Frederica Mathewes-Green
Hardcover, August 2003
List Price: $16.95
Our Price: $13.56 (Save 20%)
Barnes & Noble Member Price: $12.88
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2003 10:52 AM (GMT -6) | | “What shall we offer you O Christ,
who for our sake has appeared on earth as man?
Every creature made by you offers you thanks.
The angels offer you a hymn; the heavens, a star;
the Magi, gifts; the shepherds, their wonder;
the earth, its cave; the wilderness, the manger;
and we offer you a virgin mother.”
-From a Prayer for the Orthodox Christmas Vespers Service.
quote:
The task of iconography is to express the theological and spiritual content of revelation in a summary fashion through images. This is true of the Icon of the Nativity. The Nativity Icon is in sharp contrast to the sentimental imagery often used to depict the birth of Christ. In the Icon there is no charming Bethlehem bathed in the light of the nativity star but only a rugged mountain with a few plants. The austere mountain suggests a hard, unwelcoming world in which survival is a real battle - the world since our expulsion from Paradise.
The most prominent figure in the Icon is Mary. Orthodox Christians call Her the Theotokos: Godbearer, or Mother of God. Her quiet but wholehearted assent to the invitation brought to Her by the Archangel Gabriel has led Her to Bethlehem, making the cave at the edge of a peasant village the center of the universe. He who was distant has come near, first filling Her body, now visible in the flesh.
Christ’s body is wrapped “in swaddling clothes.” In Icons of Christ’s burial, you see He is wearing similar bands of cloth. In the Nativity Icon, the manger looks much like a coffin. In this way the Icon links birth and death. The poet Rilke says we bear our death within us from the moment of birth. The Icon of the Nativity says the same. Our life is one piece and its length is of much less importance than its purity and truthfulness.
The figures of Mary and Christ are at the heart of the Icon. Mary fulfilling Eve’s destiny, has given birth to Jesus Christ, a child who is God incarnate, a child in whom each of us finds our true self, a child who is the measure of all things.
See more images by Peter Wilke
http://www.bridgebuilding.com/narr/pwnat.html
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/19/2003 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/19/2003 12:38 PM (GMT -6) | | | POW: are there iconographers today? How does one get such a job? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2003 5:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
POW: are there iconographers today? How does one get such a job?
You and I have a looonng history -- so we can talk.
First beginning to answer that question is to relay something a priest (who is also an iconographer) told his iconography class (beginners). For every liturgy there is an icon, and for every icon there is a liturgy. Or...if someone wrote a new liturgy -- say honoring a new martyr in whom Christ was manifest (The honor toward the martyr is a "real symbol" and symbolic realism for honor to God, for it is the work of the Spirit that was really manifest in that one's life...) THAT liturgy would demand an icon to go with it. Christ is God incarnate, the church is the incarnation by the Spirit of Christ, Christians are little bearers of Christ, and martyrs are "witnesses" of Christ -- the old passing away and the new being put on.That little couplet (icon and liturgy) should stay front and center for you. Icon's are not magic. Think of them as a visual liturgy. They are not common pictures, as they limit to what Scripture says. "Limit" is a complex word there. Chirst's manger looking like a burial vault is not literally described; nor does an icon of the nativity pretend to be a snap-shot. "Limited" to the full range of interactions of scriptures the icon is so limited. That is, the painter does not invent, innovate, etc.
I'm reading Scmemann's "Liturgical Theology." In it I'm learnign that the early church met in the catecombs because of the faith of those who had died. No cultus of relics at that time -- which came as a way of filling the void left when people left there paganism. But just the real-symbolism (symbolic-reality) of communing there, the epitime of the Christian life which is the realization of the world to come in the present by the Spirit, THERE, in the tombs, the reality of how they were joining "By saints below and saints above,The church in earth and heaven." ("Oh for a thousand tounges...") in worship was made more close to visible. An icon makes the invisible visible. And so does liturgy -- even that Charles Wesley 1739 hymn.
Near as I can tell, there are plenty of people making some very bad, harmful "icons." But for an icon to be true it has to not be a stand-alone monstrosity. It has to GO WITH a liturgy of the church.
That priest/iconographer/teacher I mentioned considers it possible for someone who isn't an artist to make icons "better" (in usefulness) than an "artist" intent on doing his own thing. Seeme true enough.
You can print off an icon on your printer.
www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/Icons/index.html
Then find some good liturgy.
Some liturgy was born from monasticism, and had tons of scripture (psalms) meant to aid in prayer. Some liturgy grew directly from the Judeo-Christian tradition of worship. And a third source grew out of the necessity of bringing the Church into culture too -- to fill the vacume left by paganism's fall. I'm rambing--its late. The point I would make is that some worship is OK by your self, and other worship is meant to be in the body. Prayer can be both. Glorifying God for the Cross -- and Orthodox liturgy directed to Christ along that line -- can easily be slipped into a Baptist Church that has a cross. Crosses are iconic too.
Sorry, have to go to bed.
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/19/2003 6:03 PM (GMT -6) | | | How is a work commissioned? I mean, in the Catholic church a person is sainted through a process...are works by certain people (saints, I guess), commissioned by the church? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2003 6:06 PM (GMT -6) | | BTW -- and maybe Green covered this (If I'm right.) Icon's of sainst are never about the saint as they were alive. That would be what Giotto, Rembrandt, or Van Gogh would do, in an "and you are there..." style. Leave that for Walter Cronkite. Instead, they are visible proof of "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth..." They are visible proof that the Spirit transforms us inwardly so that the kingdom is realized in our lives. The saint is pictured against a golden heavenly sky. It is the "and we know not what we shall be, but we shall be changed..." version of the saint, the promise fulfilled that they are portrayed in. The reminders of what for that they are remembered is part of the picture -- but only as a transferable type. True to Christian theology, the saint is a person, unique with created uniquness. But dedicated and consecrated to God, bearing his/he cross and being transformed by the Spirit, THAT is what is portrayed and made "visible."
It is not a perfect life that is portrayed. It is rather the perfecting by the Spirit. The sinner saved by grace -- not just in words, but in inner transformation and outward action.
Hope this gives you some aid.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/19/2003 6:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
How is a work commissioned? I mean, in the Catholic church a person is sainted through a process...are works by certain people (saints, I guess), commissioned by the church?
HERE:
Canonization
www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/canonization/index.htm
St. Herman of Alaska
www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/oca/st-herman-alaska/index.htm
Icons
www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/orthodox-faith/worship/icons.html
quote:
In the Orthodox Church the icons bear witness to the reality of God's presence with us in the mystery of faith. The icons are not just human pictures or visual aids to contemplation and prayer. They are the witnesses of the presence of the Kingdom of God to us, and so of our own presence to the Kingdom of God in the Church. It is the Orthodox faith that icons are not only permissible, but are spiritually necessary because "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (Jn 1:14). Christ is truly man and, as man, truly the "icon of the invisible God" (Col 1:15; 1 Cor 11:7; 2 Cor 4:4).
---------------------------------------------
(btw--this seems quite different from the early draft of part of that book baker is going to do on "the power of imaginative prayer" -- at least the early version I saw. Icon's are different than visualization.) | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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| Posted 12/20/2003 3:37 AM (GMT -6) | | | POW: thanks for the information. I'm digesting it as we speak | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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| Posted 12/20/2003 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | | Green in her book has a icon called Christ of Sinai. Do you know of a place I might print this one from? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/20/2003 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
POW: thanks for the information. I'm digesting it as we speak
A VERY interesting (though for me high-level-academic) article on significant differences in ideas about spirituality is HERE:
Some really significant ideas.
As someone who had to struggle through teaching Gothic and Renaisance art history (a Baptist kid teaching French Catholic art using secular textbooks of British and German influence) I have to say that us Protestants are "snowed" by "mystical" ideas of "spirituality." Abbot Sugar INVENTED what we now know as Gothic. He did so with a medieval Scholastic approach to PsudoDyonisis (sp?). Those beautiful stained glass windows and the weightless feel of the bare-thin spins of stone are meant to trandscend rationality and nature. But if you compare that to Hagia Sophia in Caonstaninople you find that the super-scale of the Gothic Cathedral is not there. Instead, dispite the size, every element in Hagia Sophia (Church of Holy Wisdom) is human in scale. ALL GOD'S CREATION PRAISES HIM. Stone praises God as stone, tile as tile, space as space. Many ideas have spawned from Sugar's.
The first appearance of Gothic architecture is Abbot Sugarís rebuilding of the Abbey Church of St. Dennis in 1137. Sugar was inspired by the glorification of light in mystical writings, and thus he created broad windows and filled them with stain glass. One might note that stain glass is considered Francesí most important contribution to painting. Sugar's inspiration gives the stain glass window its symbolism. "A Short History of Gothic Art"
[urlhttp://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~women/mysteries/siesing/final/gothicinfluence/images/gothicart.html
Who could not be moved by Gothic art? But is it true to leave yourself behind in its transport? Is that sort of thing anywhere in the NT or OT? Or is in the mystical religions Paul contended with? Is that how Jesus taught us to pray?
Byzantine liturgies contain the phrase "rational worship."
Suprisingly, to us Protestants who have been led to expect Orthodox worship to be "mystical" and wierd (in art history tests and hypothetical descripbtions) its not.
Some have lamented Lossky's choice (or a translator) of "Mystical" Theology as one of his book titles. The ideas of "mystery" is exaclty true. But all Christians know "mystery" in both the inescapably "beyond us" of our very salvation in Christ, and also in the sheer wonder at God's love. "Mystery" is just what we can't pin down, or even fully appreciate. But to our ears "mystical" is that wierd, unnatural, "from somewhere else" kind of thing that movies get made of. <sound track> But the incarnation itself, the enhypostatic union of humanity in the Person of Christ proves that fellowship with God is not unnatural to men. (Only sin is unnatural.) Worship needs icons. The hug or handshake popular now, when done in worship, is itself an icon. Image-bearer loving image-bearer!
Mystery = YES.
Mystical = NO.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 12/20/2003 5:13 AM (GMT -6) | | I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WEBSITE, BUT THIS LAST PART OF THE POST IS MISSING FROM MY PREVIOUS POST!
[quote]Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Abbot Sugar INVENTED what we now know as Gothic. He did so with a medieval Scholastic approach to PsudoDyonisis (sp?). ...Many ideas have spawned from Sugar's.
..............
Who could not be moved by Gothic art? But is it true to leave yourself behind in its transport? Is that sort of thing anywhere in the NT or OT? Or is in the mystical religions Paul contended with? Is that how Jesus taught us to pray?
Byzantine liturgies contain the phrase "rational worship."
Suprisingly, to us Protestants who have been led to expect Orthodox worship to be "mystical" and wierd (in art history tests and hypothetical descripbtions) its not.
Some have lamented Lossky's choice (or a translator) of "Mystical" Theology as one of his book titles. The ideas of "mystery" is exaclty true. But all Christians know "mystery" in both the inescapably "beyond us" of our very salvation in Christ, and also in the sheer wonder at God's love. "Mystery" is just what we can't pin down, or even fully appreciate. But to our ears "mystical" is that wierd, unnatural, "from somewhere else" kind of thing that movies get made of. <sound track> But the incarnation itself, the enhypostatic union of humanity in the Person of Christ proves that fellowship with God is not unnatural to men. (Only sin is unnatural.) Worship needs icons. The hug or handshake popular now, when done in worship, is itself an icon. Image-bearer loving image-bearer!
Mystery = YES.
Mystical = NO. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/20/2003 5:28 AM (GMT -6) | | foquote:
Originally posted by honorman
Green in her book has a icon called Christ of Sinai. Do you know of a place I might print this one from?
http://www.comeandseeicons.com/pds01.htm" target="_blank">http://www.comeandseeicons.com/pds01.htm
quote:
Christ is depicted with his right hand raised in blessing. In his left hand is the Gospel Book This icon was written to depict the fact that Christ is both the ruler of all, thus our Judge, and the Savior of the world. The right half of his face (from the viewer's perspective) shows Him to be the Judge who sees all; the left: our merciful Savior.
This Icon is from the first half of the 6th century. Original is at St. Catherine's Monastery in Egypt.
Christ Pantocrator (Sinai) pds-01 6" x 10.5" $23.95
http://www.comeandseeicons.com/christ.htm#pds01
ALSO AT: www.arimathea.co.uk/thoughts.htm ("Thoughts and Discussions" on the Arimathea site)
The Incarnate Logos
www.arimathea.co.uk/incarnat.htm
This icon was painted in or about the sixth century. it is an encaustic painting, i.e., the painter used wax as his medium. The icon is kept in the Monastery of Saint Catherine on Mount Sinai, which was founded by the Roman Emperor Justinian the Great.
This is a dogmatic icon. It shows Christ as both God and man. The right hand side of His face is eternally serene, powerful, all-merciful, unchanging; the left shows the Man of Sorrows, a human being sharing and deeply afflicted by human suffering. And yet the face is a single person, Jesus Christ. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/20/2003 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
fo[quote]Originally posted by honorman
Green in her book has a icon called Christ of Sinai. Do you know of a place I might print this one from?
FILE SIZE MATTERS MORE THAN SCREEN SIZE. OPEN THEM WITH A PROGRAM THAT LETS YOU ENLARGE IF YOU WANT.
1.
2.
LIKE I SAY, TRY ENLARGING THEM. THE LAST ONE IS SMALL, BUT RICHER COLOR. WHEN I 'GOOGLED' I WENT FOR FILE SIZE! | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/20/2003 6:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
A VERY interesting (though for me high-level-academic) article on significant differences in ideas about spirituality is HERE:
Some really significant ideas.
THIS IS WELL WORTH PUTTING A COPY ON YOUR HARDDRIVE!!!
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