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deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/7/2002 7:18 AM (GMT -6)

Okay. I've been lurking here a very short while, and find it intriguing. Never posted before, and probably won't again. But here goes. First, please know I'm no philosopher or theologian. Not very well read. I find it hard enough earning a living and taking care of family. Just an average person with questions.
If there's a war going on here (good and evil), and god is the commander-in-chief, what's to say he's concerned about any of us, individually. I mean, he may cry at the thought of tortured babies,or disease and natural disasters--even more of a problem-- but his goal is to win the war. So he may always choose the "good" thing--good for the long run, (I think because he wants to, not has to, otherwise, he's not that admirable, in my mind) but that may Not be good for any one person. So, I may worship or strive for "goodness" but why should I worship god? other than out of fear, or respect for his power. or, the fact he supposedly commanded us to in the bible. good enough reasons, I suppose, since I know I'm not That good. and the Christ thing, you can't beat that, if you believe it.
there's more, but i probably already am sounding stupid. If there's someplace here this has already been answered (in understandable-for-me language) just tell me if you have a minute. also, sorry if I offended anyone. thanks very much

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/7/2002 10:03 AM (GMT -6)

Deal22000,

Hey, welcome! And stick around, okay! I'm not a philosopher, a theologin nor am I very well read. I have no formal education and couldn't quote Plato, for pete's sake, if my life depended on it! So, you're in some familiar company!

For more on the topic of "Is God good (and by nature He must do good) or is He free to do evil, if He wanted to, but chooses not to?", see the topic under this very category (Theological Q&A) called "In-Depth Discussion of the Omnibenevolence of God". It's pretty heavy, so you'll want to go at it slowly.

You also mentioned the following: "So, I may worship or strive for "goodness" but why should I worship god? other than out of fear, or respect for his power. or, the fact he supposedly commanded us to in the bible. good enough reasons, I suppose, since I know I'm not That good. and the Christ thing, you can't beat that, if you believe it.

As Christians, we believe that from a world-view perspective, there's only one place to turn to find world-view answers that address the dilemma of man (what you mentioned about your not being that good - none of us is) and that's the Bible.

No other book or belief satisfactory addresses the reason why there's evil, why we as humans are not good and what has been done about this. The most intelligent question one can really ask themselves (well, in the direction of one of the most intelligent questions to ask) is "Why am I not that good? Why is there lying, cheating, stealing, killing, etc., in my own life as well as every other persons?

If this way of living is accepted as being normal (the way it's suppose to be) then there can be no outcry against the torture of babies, the killing of others, because there's not set rule to consider as an all-out authority on right, wrong; good, bad; moral and immoral.

The Bible addresses what happened to us, what went wrong, what's been done to fix it and the future and hope in view of this "fix" for mankind. The Bible also addresses (as well as history in general) the life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, the Christ. He confirmed the Bible as the authoritative Word of God which, He said, spoke about Himself and the work He'd accomplish.

So, as a Christian, one is making an intelligent decision to follow Jesus the Christ in view of this entire dillema.

Finally, this board serves as a place for intelligent questions and discussion to take place. And no, you don't sound stupid at all. You actually have a lot of heart in what you said and intelligent concern!

Stick around, deal22000!

For the conversation,

Starkman

Ryan_doy
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 4

Posted 1/7/2002 10:14 AM (GMT -6)

Deal22000,

I enjoyed reading your post. It wasn’t this huge philosophical endeavor to destroy a particular belief. It is simply a from the heart question. A question that I believe transcends all humanity. I am going to the Christian perspective on your question. My goal is not to destroy any view, my goal is simply to speak from where I am at and where I was. I am only 20 years old but I have served God for 5 years off and on. Here are some of the conclusions that I have draw.

First you state that there is a war going on. This belief, although stated in Christianity, is not theologically correct with Gods Word. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. God being omnipotent, this means there are no non logical limits to what God can do. What this means is there are logical limits to God. He has in fact limited Himself. For example God cannot be both all good and all evil at the same time. Just as God cannot create square circles. God is also omniscient, God knows everything. So the idea of a war between good and evil is purely a one sided war. God desires each person to serve Him this is why He created us free to choose. Not predestined for one or the other, as this would make God evil by saying He created a particular person for evil. God is free to do as He pleases, but God cannot sin thus God cannot be evil. Its not that God chooses not to its that it is diametrically opposed to this character. So Gods actions follow out of His divine will for all people to freely choose Him.

This I believe is the area that truly is a transcending question. “So, I may worship or strive for "goodness" but why should I worship god?” Why indeed?
This question I had to ask to myself when I was searching. Here is what I came up with. Striving for goodness, this sounds absolutely logical on the outside, but what does it mean to be good? Or more frankly what is good and what is bad? Some say each person has to decide this for himself, but what happens with morals conflict? One example, Hitler, acting out of this philosophy negated God and said man is but blood and soil. Thus man is exalted as supreme. Hitler than said Jews are inferior and must be exterminated. What happened? Millions and millions of Jews and other “inferiors” were exterminated. So my point is this how can man, with no objective standard, live a life of “good” when we really don’t know what it is in the first place. Thus my quest for God began. I wanted to do “good” and I realized there was more to life than this.

This is a rather long post and I do hope you read it and it speaks to your heart. I am not trying to be offensive in anyway. My only hope is to convey hope.

In Yeshua
Ryan

Ryan_doy
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 4

Posted 1/7/2002 10:16 AM (GMT -6)

Also I would like to recommend a book to you if you will allow.

Can Man Live Without GOd?

By Ravi Zacharias

This is a great book on this issue. It is not very thick and is an easy read.

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/7/2002 12:26 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks for your replies. I appreciate your time more than I can say. I guess I was afraid no one would even answer.

Starkman: I’ll try to stick around at least long enough to talk to anyone who takes the time to answer me. That’s only fair, but not easy even right now—who’s making dinner? My spouse is late—guess we’ll have something frozen.

Thanks for telling me about the In-Depth discussion of the Omnibenevolance of God thread—I just read some, and that is REALLY interesting. That Mephi guy seems to make sense to me, but I wish he’d come down several levels so I could understand more.

Yes, okay, the bible. I was raised Catholic, so I’m a tiny bit familiar (they didn’t seem to emphasize it That much though—which even at the time, I wondered about--, and they certainly never answererd the questions I raised). But yes, I see that’s a good place to start—that’s where people talk about this stuff. Yes, I see there has to be some Absolute standard of goodness, or else, what the heck are we talking about. I’m no authority. But is God the standard, or does he Set the standard. Couldn’t he be outside of the standard, I mean the principle, and yet be the one who holds to it more consistently than anyone else we know?

Are you saying, Christ knew what he was talking about, so it makes sense to follow him?

Thanks for saying I didn’t sound stupid. Look out, though. I’m prepared to sound even more stupid, if that’s what it takes. BTW, I remember your name. You sound very down-to-earth, and I Appreciate that.

Ryan: Thanks very much for replying. I didn’t say there is a war going on, but I used the word “IF.” So I’m not sure. But that’s my whole question. God, in my little mind, can’t be omnipotent and still be fighting this battle at the same time. But, is he governed by any laws then, like not being able to make square circles? Who says what a circle is? Who says what “good” is? I’m really interested in how you decided to worship God, (I think you implied that, or else I’m just assuming it, sorry). Oh, and thanks for the book recommendation. I will seriously put it on my to do list, though that grows longer even as we speak.

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/7/2002 4:53 PM (GMT -6)

Hey there, Deal22000,

Well, I hope you found something to eat! I had to cook dinner tonight - the wife's startd classes to become a nurses aid, and of course the the classes HAVE to be in the evening! Sure, make us husbands fend for ourselves, I tell ya! (I do love to cook, though, so it's no prob for me!!!)

Hey, let's look at a few things you mentioned in your last post. And yeah, I agree, Mephi's one deep cat. I have to re-read him a lot til it sinks in with me. (secret: after reading him and others a lot around here, one does catch on to the lingo and it becomes a lot easier!)

Okay, let's start with this statement you made: But is God the standard, or does he Set the standard. Couldn’t he be outside of the standard, I mean the principle, and yet be the one who holds to it more consistently than anyone else we know?

The whole principle behind the Bible is God making the statement that He is there and that He is not silent. He is offering personal relationship between Him and us. The Bible presents God as one who can be known, who we can relate with. That's the first and foremost principle to know about the Book!

Then you stated: Are you saying, Christ knew what he was talking about, so it makes sense to follow him?

Christ becomes the very center and focus of "God is there and He is not silent". Jesus brings into full view something about this God in the most personal manner possible; for Jesus claimed to be that very God!

Jesus claimed that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life; that He was the resurrection and the life (the hope of man, to live forever); that He was the Light of all men, the Shephered of our very essential beings who could lead us to the Father; that He was the Door...THE way to get to the Father. In other words, Jesus makes concret this God who has said He's very much interested in us.

See, this causes us to intelligently evaluate such claims, objectively research history and the documents, and see if there's any truth to these claims. We find that there's well enough evidence to support the claims (particularly His resurrection) and therefore we have pledged our hearts, minds and souls to follow Him placing our trust in Him that He is who He said He is.

And, as I mentioned, that's why this board is so cool, because we seek to iron out questions, ideas, thoughts and issues that surround this faith!

Got to go...wife's due home!

Take care,

Starkman

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 1/7/2002 5:46 PM (GMT -6)

Ryan doy: God is also omniscient, God knows everything. So the idea of a war between good and evil is purely a one sided war... So Gods actions follow out of His divine will for all people to freely choose Him.

Doc: What does it mean to speak of a "one sided war"? How does God's omnsicience entail this? As I argue in God at War, scripture presupposes that the war between God and opposing forces is a REAL war. Yes, the ultimate outcome is decided. But this doesn't undermine the reality of wills that work at cross purposes with God.

My response to deal22000's question would simply be this: While we humans may conclude that the universe is so vast, and the war so expansive, that God can't care about us individually. But scripture -- and especially Jesus Christ -- reveals that God DOES care about each of us on a personal level, with a passoinate love. Indeed, he DIED FOR YOU that YOU might enter into an eternal, passionate relationship with him.

Jesus expells all our natural expectations about what we ordinarily think God should be like.

I hope you take him at his "Word" -- Jesus Christ.

Blessings

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/8/2002 3:17 AM (GMT -6)

Starkman: Yep, had leftover lasagna and a salad. I love to cook, too, when I have time. For me, it’s an expression of love, and it’s just plain fun. And, you always get a reward—something to eat.

About catching on to the lingo here, hope that happens soon.

Alright, here’s what I’m not getting. It seems you guys (who have responded to me, including Doc, though it didn’t seem like he was really responding to me—guess it’s obvious I don’t know what I’m talking about, but that’s Okay, it’s not like I’m trying to hide it—BUT, if anyone thinks I’m not taking this seriously, like it’s a game to me, they are DEAD wrong. They don’t know me at all, of course.) put a lot of faith in the bible. That’s my problem. HOW did you get there? Everyone talks about a leap of faith. HOW do you do it? Well, I suppose you put a lot of time and effort into studying it, and then came to these conclusions. But then, most everyone I know just seems to have this faith, without questions. It’s like they say the sky is blue, and they all agree. And I’m sitting there thinking, doesn’t it seem kind of green or purple to you guys? I really Want to say it’s blue, but I’m not that sure. Not that I’m special or anything, but, rather, I feel like a dork, because I don’t see it. It’s not even that I don’t trust you, though I do have a hard time trusting, but Why can’t I see it? Okay, prayer. But can you actually pray for faith? Wouldn’t God see right through that, anyway? It seems like, Honestly, I’m not good enough to believe this stuff. Must be some big flaw on my part.

Getting back to the war idea. I just thought of something. God knows the outcome, it’s a sure thing, but he doesn’t control or know about how each of is going to fare in it, how each of us will decide? So, God is outside of Everything, Good And Evil, and He’s letting us battle it out? …how long is he going to wait?

A question about the bible, OT. It seems God made personal appearances and talked to quite a few people there. I’m assuming in that culture, that was not considered completely strange. But, what about everyone He Didn’t talk to? People like me. How did they come to faith? Okay, there’s this little voice in me that says, it’s not a waste of time, go on the Internet and ask someone, because this is the Truth, and you need to know it. But the rest of me says, this is stupid, you can’t figure this stuff out, don’t bother. Then, that’s what I’ve tried to ignore most of my life.

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/8/2002 3:44 AM (GMT -6)

Forgot to ask--faith is a Decision? So, you just decide, sounds good, so I accept. Even if, deep down, you have doubts? I guess I could do that, but it doesn't seem honest. It seems like what I did was say, No, I don't buy this, but this Jesus sounds Terrific--someone I'd like to try to model myself after, even though I know for sure I won't even come close. So, is that any kind of faith? I don't think so. Does the faith come after a while of faking it, telling yourself you believe because you Want to?

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/8/2002 5:46 AM (GMT -6)

deal22000 - keep asking questions and seeking information. i'm sure many of us on this board have been in a similar situation as you are in. so stick with it.

i'm not going to try and answer your questions, POW or doc or somebody will. I just want to say that having doubts does not mean you don't have faith! I guarantee everyone has doubts about what they believe! Even the most solid christians.

June

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/8/2002 9:05 AM (GMT -6)

Hey there, Deal22000,

Glad the lasgna was available - sounds good! Hmm, maybe tonight!!

Okay, you mentioned this: Everyone talks about a leap of faith. HOW do you do it? Well, I suppose you put a lot of time and effort into studying it, and then came to these conclusions.

First, Christianity isn't a leap of faith. It's the most intelligent decision to be made; one should read the documents of the New Testament about the things Jesus said and did (as I mentioned briefly in my prior post). The historicity, and faithfulness to the docments that make up the New Testament are what can soundly and confidently lead one to conclude that Jesus is really who He said He was and really can save one from their own sin and destruction offering eternal life. It isn't just "oh, just believe". That'd be very foolish for anyone to do about anything in life, wouldn't you agree!

Something else you noted: Okay, prayer. But can you actually pray for faith? Wouldn’t God see right through that, anyway?.

Think about it this way. If you were God and someone was struggling to come to know you, and they prayed but with only a littel faith and a lot of doubt, would you as God criticize them? No, I don't think you would. You'd understand that they're struggling with life decisions and questions. So, never be afraid to talk to God and spill it out as it is: "Hey God, I don't get it. If you're real, then a little help here, okay!". He'll understand completely. Faith is a mental decision that comes from hearing the Gospel message that strikes enough confidence in you that you can intelligently place your faith in Christ to save you. By the way, let's talk momentarily about what it means to be "saved".

Let's say you commit a crime; you murder someone. You and I (your friend) are in court. The judge, who is just and fair and must, if he's a fair and good judge render the proper punishment, sentences you to death for the crime. I step up to the bench and say, "Listen judge, I'm this fellow's friend, and I'd like to die for him, okay". Is this going to fly? No way. The crime is between you and the victim. I can't pay the price for you. This even holds true if you committed a small crime and the penalty is $20.00. I may come up with the money out of my pocket, because you have no money, but still, the judge considers YOU to have paid the penalty. And he'd probably even say something like, "Say, you have a good friend there, you should pay him back when you can." It is you who has paid the penalty And when we take this to a serious crime, this becomes clear; I cannot really pay any penalty.

So, here we stand as people who have rebelled against God, we have hated - according to God's Word this is murder done in the heart but just not expressed externally, we have lied, cheated, stolen, etc. We've done all these at least once (how many times does one have to steal ANYTHING to be called a thief? 2, 10, 20? This makes us guilty before God for crimes against Him. We may do them to others, but ultimately it is against God that we "sin". We are guilty! We must pay the price. It wouldn't be a good God to say "Oh, don't worry about it, it's all right".

The problem now is how do we pay? I mean, we're mortal beings. I can't resurrect from the dead if I have to pay eternally for my sins. And God does require a being free from guilt of crimes to spend eternity with Him. Punishment awaits otherwise! What am I going to do? Buddah can't help me (I mean, perhaps he was a nice guy and all, but he's sure not addressing this issue like Jesus did); Mohamad can't rescue me; he only claimed to be yet another prophet, BUT he is still in His grave. Jesus is not. He is alive - attested by plenty of witnesses! And confusious is said to have said something to the effect: "Don't bother me with questions about after life, I'm still trying to figure out this life" (very rough, if not completely accurate paraphrase, but it makes the point).

Only one being in history has addressed the issue man faces; the need to understand who and what he is; the need to make sense of evil; the need find peace from the guilt that follows us (sorry, but time gone by is no payment; the guilt remains). Only Jesus claimed and eventually proved by His resurrecting from the dead as conquerer over death that He alone can save: "I am the way, the truth, the life; no one can come to the Father but by me". John 14:6.

In other words, God became man in order to take on the sin of the world and become the means by which payment for the crimes could be justly taken care of. However, the one difference between Jesus and us is that we can't raise ourselves from the dead. He can and did. So, he is able to square the penalty owed to God AND overcome death to offer eternal life to those who accept His work on the cross...a work that paid for your crimes (sins) and mine.

You see, this isn't about leaps of faith and "well, just believe". You are being challenged to do some home work here, is what's going on. Get a hold of two books, that's all you'll need right now" Lee Stroebels (I think that's how his name is spelled): "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith". He was an atheist Chicago Tribune (I believe it was) journalist who has since become a Christian. His books are pocket book, and they're not heavy reading at all, but very honest and sound research! Go get them!!!

Well, I'm on my way for the rest of the day (see why I gave up writing poetry!)

Take care and get back with more questions!

Starkman

Edited by - Starkman on 01/08/2002 3:12:42 PM

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/8/2002 10:25 AM (GMT -6)

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/8/2002 2:13 PM (GMT -6)

You make me laugh, Starkman. No, I mean, that’s a Good thing.

You know, I was thinking about this this afternoon (yeah, while I should have been concentrating on my work—don’t worry, I’ll pay for it later) and what I came up with is that, since I started reading quite a bit of the New Testament lately, and a little of the rest of it, I decided—Yes, this is the only thing I’ve read so far (given, I haven’t read that much) that satisfactorily addresses these questions, especially the question of sin, and why we aren’t so good, and what has been done about it. I remember I checked out Buddhism and other religions, Very briefly, a long time ago, but they didn’t get to it.

So, I was thinking, I should go for it. I mean, really try to learn it. Not that it would change my life in any tangible ways, maybe—I still have to get up and go to work in the morning, take care of the kids, etc. BUT, it Would change my life considerably. I was asking myself why I even care about this. I guess the reasons are: a) I like to know the truth, even if it hurts, b) I want to do the right things, c) It would be Really Great if this were true, because that would mean there’s actually a Solution. Other reasons too, but those are the big ones.

I was also thinking about the bible. I’m thinking, if I take this thing as a whole, then, Yes, it certainly seems to deliver what it promises. That’s cool. I’m also thinking, I Have to take it in its entirety, otherwise, so many things can be taken out of context. That could be disastrous, I think. Can you tell me when the bible was written, and over how many years, and how many people? That would save me some time, if you just know it off the top of your head. If not, that’s okay.

Yeah, if I were God, I’d have no problem with someone like me just trying to figure it out. I don’t mean any harm, and if He’s God, He’s got to know that.

About being “saved.” That always confused me big time. No, it Wouldn’t be a good God that just said, “That’s Okay.” I’d rather pay the price, and become better for it, even if I’m kicking and screaming in the meantime. That’s just the way I am. Plus, I wouldn’t want to even look at Him, if I wasn’t right.

Isn’t this too good to be true, though? That God Himself would come and make it right? Then, how does that make it right? Is it that He knows we’re so bad that even if one of Us tried to pay the price, it wouldn’t be good enough, so He had to come here Himself?

I’ll probably order those books when I have time. The key word was “journalist.” I think it was my first mentor who first told me that old saying, “If your mother tells you she loves you, Check it out. She may not even be your mother.” So, I’m checking it out.
Forgot to say, Hey June, thanks for the encouragement.

Jan 8 - my response

Deal22000,

I think the main reason to care about all of this is that we're talking here about God. I mean, maybe we don't know as much as we'd like about Him yet, and maybe we don't understand everything the way we'd like to, but He is...well, God. He's worth being worshiped and He wants to have relationship with us!

Daily I get up and think of Him. I talk (pray) to Him because I think He's worth it. I pray daily whether I feel anything or not because I want to know Him more and more. And quite frankly, I do know Him better than I did many years ago, but not like I want to! Sometimes it's frustrating!

Of course, another reason to care about all of this is that there's eternal life at stake here. I'd like to spend that with God. I think it's awesome that God would die (carrying the sins of the world) in my place so that I don't have to spend eternity banished from Him forever. How much more can one ask of God, you know.

You said something here to consider: Isn’t this too good to be true, though? That God Himself would come and make it right? Then, how does that make it right? Is it that He knows we’re so bad that even if one of Us tried to pay the price, it wouldn’t be good enough, so He had to come here Himself?

Ah! Yes, it does seem to good to be true. We are to do nothing more than trust! Trust in the finished sacrifice Jesus gave of Himself on behalf of us. But there's more...

You see, we want to be in control. We want things our way. We don't want to "die to ourselves"; it's against the grain, big time. And this makes Christianity something someone once said (well, paraphrased) very true: "Christianity is both the easiest and the hardest to do; it is the easiest because Jesus has done it all for us. It is the hardest because we do not want to let go and die to self." The biggest battle (next to Satan's resistance to God's plan to save as many as will come) is our own selves. We are our worst enemies. We backbite, we cheat, hate, are selfish, self-centered, etc. You get the picture. We don't think we're all that bad until little by little (even if the truth hurts, as you said) God gently shows us just how desperately wicked the human heart is...far worse we are then we even know ourselves!

This makes the walk with God a life and death struggle. It's what Jesus meant when he said "Pray that you enter not into temptation. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" Mark 14:38. The struggle of the human being element is found in all of Scripture. We just constantly want to be in control. So, there's more to it than meets the eye, but it's well, well worth it all!

Who wrote the Bible? Well, there's about 40 authors spanning a time period of about 1400 to 1800 years. And listen, don't get too hung up on wondering how the Bible can be the Word of God merely because man wrote it. I mean, surely God is quite able to communicate what He wants written if it means enough to Him. That's why the apostle Peter, one of the close companions to Jesus while He was alive said this: "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitensses of His majesty". I Peter 2: 16. Oh, you'll find all kinds of gems like this in the Word of God...all kinds, Deal22000!

No, we couldn't save ourselves. Know anyone who could die taking on all the sin of the world - it's evil, rebellion and all our crimes - and raise from the dead? Not me! Remember, our crimes are against God. Even King David (the king who killed the giant Goliath) said in Psalm 51 (after he sinned by having this gal's husband killed in the front lines of a war going on so that he could have her for his own), "Against you, you only have I sinned and done this evil in your sight..." Psalm 51:4. It is against God when we sin. And the punishment is death! Romans 3:23 states "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The same book a few chapters later in 6:23 says "The wages (payoff) of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life".

Mind you, this was written by the great apostle Paul - a man who was KILLING Christians thinking he was doing God a favor, until Jesus appeared to Him personally and said, "ahem! Time to quit, Saul (Paul's name before it was changed)" - see Acts 7:59-8:3; Paul's accounts of his own conversion in Acts 22 and 26; Galatians 1:13 and I Timothy 1:12-14. Amazing!

Finally (at least for the evening!), I'd say again that this is love; that He loved us first and sent His own Son to die in place of us. This, Deal, probably more than anything else is why God is worth being worshiped! He's just plain worth it!

Have a great evening,

Starkman

Jan 8 - Deal22000's response:
Starkman: Yep, had leftover lasagna and a salad. I love to cook, too, when I have time. For me, it’s an expression of love, and it’s just plain fun. And, you always get a reward—something to eat.

About catching on to the lingo here, hope that happens soon.

Alright, here’s what I’m not getting. It seems you guys (who have responded to me, including Doc, though it didn’t seem like he was really responding to me—guess it’s obvious I don’t know what I’m talking about, but that’s Okay, it’s not like I’m trying to hide it—BUT, if anyone thinks I’m not taking this seriously, like it’s a game to me, they are DEAD wrong. They don’t know me at all, of course.) put a lot of faith in the bible. That’s my problem. HOW did you get there? Everyone talks about a leap of faith. HOW do you do it? Well, I suppose you put a lot of time and effort into studying it, and then came to these conclusions. But then, most everyone I know just seems to have this faith, without questions. It’s like they say the sky is blue, and they all agree. And I’m sitting there thinking, doesn’t it seem kind of green or purple to you guys? I really Want to say it’s blue, but I’m not that sure. Not that I’m special or anything, but, rather, I feel like a dork, because I don’t see it. It’s not even that I don’t trust you, though I do have a hard time trusting, but Why can’t I see it? Okay, prayer. But can you actually pray for faith? Wouldn’t God see right through that, anyway? It seems like, Honestly, I’m not good enough to believe this stuff. Must be some big flaw on my part.

Getting back to the war idea. I just thought of something. God knows the outcome, it’s a sure thing, but he doesn’t control or know about how each of is going to fare in it, how each of us will decide? So, God is outside of Everything, Good And Evil, and He’s letting us battle it out? …how long is he going to wait?

A question about the bible, OT. It seems God made personal appearances and talked to quite a few people there. I’m assuming in that culture, that was not considered completely strange. But, what about everyone He Didn’t talk to? People like me. How did they come to faith? Okay, there’s this little voice in me that says, it’s not a waste of time, go on the Internet and ask someone, because this is the Truth, and you need to know it. But the rest of me says, this is stupid, you can’t figure this stuff out, don’t bother. Then, that’s what I’ve tried to ignore most of my life.

Forgot to ask--faith is a Decision? So, you just decide, sounds good, so I accept. Even if, deep down, you have doubts? I guess I could do that, but it doesn't seem honest. It seems like what I did was say, No, I don't buy this, but this Jesus sounds Terrific--someone I'd like to try to model myself after, even though I know for sure I won't even come close. So, is that any kind of faith? I don't think so. Does the faith come after a while of faking it, telling yourself you believe because you Want to?

Jan 8 - my response
Hey there, Deal22000,

Glad the lasgna was available - sounds good! Hmm, maybe tonight!!

Okay, you mentioned this: Everyone talks about a leap of faith. HOW do you do it? Well, I suppose you put a lot of time and effort into studying it, and then came to these conclusions.

First, Christianity isn't a leap of faith. It's the most intelligent decision to be made; one should read the documents of the New Testament about the things Jesus said and did (as I mentioned briefly in my prior post). The historicity, and faithfulness to the docments that make up the New Testament are what can soundly and confidently lead one to conclude that Jesus is really who He said He was and really can save one from their own sin and destruction offering eternal life. It isn't just "oh, just believe". That'd be very foolish for anyone to do about anything in life, wouldn't you agree!

Something else you noted: Okay, prayer. But can you actually pray for faith? Wouldn’t God see right through that, anyway?.

Think about it this way. If you were God and someone was struggling to come to know you, and they prayed but with only a littel faith and a lot of doubt, would you as God criticize them? No, I don't think you would. You'd understand that they're struggling with life decisions and questions. So, never be afraid to talk to God and spill it out as it is: "Hey God, I don't get it. If you're real, then a little help here, okay!". He'll understand completely. Faith is a mental decision that comes from hearing the Gospel message that strikes enough confidence in you that you can intelligently place your faith in Christ to save you. By the way, let's talk momentarily about what it means to be "saved".

Let's say you commit a crime; you murder someone. You and I (your friend) are in court. The judge, who is just and fair and must, if he's a fair and good judge render the proper punishment, sentences you to death for the crime. I step up to the bench and say, "Listen judge, I'm this fellow's friend, and I'd like to die for him, okay". Is this going to fly? No way. The crime is between you and the victim. I can't pay the price for you. This even holds true if you committed a small crime and the penalty is $20.00. I may come up with the money out of my pocket, because you have no money, but still, the judge considers YOU to have paid the penalty. And he'd probably even say something like, "Say, you have a good friend there, you should pay him back when you can." It is you who has paid the penalty And when we take this to a serious crime, this becomes clear; I cannot really pay any penalty.

So, here we stand as people who have rebelled against God, we have hated - according to God's Word this is murder done in the heart but just not expressed externally, we have lied, cheated, stolen, etc. We've done all these at least once (how many times does one have to steal ANYTHING to be called a thief? 2, 10, 20? This makes us guilty before God for crimes against Him. We may do them to others, but ultimately it is against God that we "sin". We are guilty! We must pay the price. It wouldn't be a good God to say "Oh, don't worry about it, it's all right".

The problem now is how do we pay? I mean, we're mortal beings. I can't resurrect from the dead if I have to pay eternally for my sins. And God does require a being free from guilt of crimes to spend eternity with Him. Punishment awaits otherwise! What am I going to do? Buddah can't help me (I mean, perhaps he was a nice guy and all, but he's sure not addressing this issue like Jesus did); Mohamad can't rescue me; he only claimed to be yet another prophet, BUT he is still in His grave. Jesus is not. He is alive - attested by plenty of witnesses! And confusious is said to have said something to the effect: "Don't bother me with questions about after life, I'm still trying to figure out this life" (very rough, if not completely accurate paraphrase, but it makes the point).

Only one being in history has addressed the issue man faces; the need to understand who and what he is; the need to make sense of evil; the need find peace from the guilt that follows us (sorry, but time gone by is no payment; the guilt remains). Only Jesus claimed and eventually proved by His resurrecting from the dead as conquerer over death that He alone can save: "I am the way, the truth, the life; no one can come to the Father but by me". John 14:6.

You see, this isn't about leaps of faith and "well, just believe". You are being challenged to do some home work here, is what's going on. Get a hold of two books, that's all you'll need right now" Lee Stroebels (I think that's how his name is spelled): "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith". He was an atheist Chicago Tribune (I believe it was) journalist who has since become a Christian. His books are pocket book, and they're not heavy reading at all, but very honest and sound research! Go get them!!!

Jan 7 - my response.
Hey there, Deal22000,

Well, I hope you found something to eat! I had to cook dinner tonight - the wife's startd classes to become a nurses aid, and of course the the classes HAVE to be in the evening! Sure, make us husbands fend for ourselves, I tell ya! (I do love to cook, though, so it's no prob for me!!!)

Hey, let's look at a few things you mentioned in your last post. And yeah, I agree, Mephi's one deep cat. I have to re-read him a lot til it sinks in with me. (secret: after reading him and others a lot around here, one does catch on to the lingo and it becomes a lot easier!)

Okay, let's start with this statement you made: But is God the standard, or does he Set the standard. Couldn’t he be outside of the standard, I mean the principle, and yet be the one who holds to it more consistently than anyone else we know?

The whole principle behind the Bible is God making the statement that He is there and that He is not silent. He is offering personal relationship between Him and us. The Bible presents God as one who can be known, who we can relate with. That's the first and foremost principle to know about the Book!

Then you stated: Are you saying, Christ knew what he was talking about, so it makes sense to follow him?

Christ becomes the very center and focus of "God is there and He is not silent". Jesus brings into full view something about this God in the most personal manner possible; for Jesus claimed to be that very God!

Jesus claimed that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life; that He was the resurrection and the life (the hope of man, to live forever); that He was the Light of all men, the Shephered of our very essential beings who could lead us to the Father; that He was the Door...THE way to get to the Father. In other words, Jesus makes concret this God who has said He's very much interested in us.

See, this causes us to intelligently evaluate such claims, objectively research history and the documents, and see if there's any truth to these claims. We find that there's well enough evidence to support the claims (particularly His resurrection) and therefore we have pledged our hearts, minds and souls to follow Him placing our trust in Him that He is who He said He is.

And, as I mentioned, that's why this board is so cool, because we seek to iron out questions, ideas, thoughts and issues that surround this faith!

Got to go...wife's due home!

Take care,

Starkman

OH, and please re-read my previous post to you; I think I was editing it when you were reading it, and there were additions I was hoping you didn't miss!

And last, hey, my mother claims she wasn't even in town when I was born! Be sure yours was! Sheesh! (ha!)

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/8/2002 5:59 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

About being “saved.” That always confused me big time. No, it Wouldn’t be a good God that just said, “That’s Okay.” I’d rather pay the price, and become better for it, even if I’m kicking and screaming in the meantime. That’s just the way I am. Plus, I wouldn’t want to even look at Him, if I wasn’t right.

Isn’t this too good to be true, though? That God Himself would come and make it right? Then, how does that make it right? Is it that He knows we’re so bad that even if one of Us tried to pay the price, it wouldn’t be good enough, so He had to come here Himself?

first of all starkman did a good job of answering your questions. just a few things to add. you pretty much answered your own question here. God does know that if we tried to pay the price it wouldn't be good enough. God is a just God. to allow people into eternal life, but yet to stay faithful to his promises, he had to send Jesus. we are required to pay for our sins. on our own we can never pay our debt. so in order to satify Gods righteous demands, he needed someone to pay the debt(penal substitution). and this could only be a perfect man, that being Jesus. the one man who didn't deserve to die did. by sending Jesus to die then rise again, he conquered satan in the process (christus victor? is that correct?). i just read starkmans post again and i probably didn't add anything new but that's okay.

anyways, don't stop asking questions. don't stop cause you might feel dumb. any question that deals with issues like this are not dumb and are extremely important. doing good!

June

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/9/2002 6:03 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, I know, the main reason to care is because we are talking about God. That’s kind of what I meant when I said I wanted to do the right thing. And then, the fact that He would actually want a relationship with us Blows me away. While I’m thinking about it though, what does this relationship entail? I thought relationship meant two-way communication, for one thing. When I tried to pray or talk to God, I didn’t hear anything back. Is that my fault, for not hearing? Also, what am I to say. Thanks, I guess, for starters, but after that, it seems like whenever I asked for something, as a kid—I mean Important things—it never worked anyway. Yes, this whole question of evil—not the man-made stuff, but even then, I can’t understand why God wouldn’t Do something-- is certainly the problem. I have to get to that.

Do you think God would be more interested in someone having faith, or in someone doing good things? Or, maybe the answer is both. As a parent, I like to get a thank-you now and then, but mostly it’s more important to me that my kids turn out to be good people. Yes, I think that involves being appreciative, also.

About being in control. I’m a control freak. So, maybe that gets in my way. It’s not only (somewhat, but not only) that I want things done my way, but I figure, No one else is going to do them for me. But I see what you mean, about how that is a problem in accepting Christianity. But I don’t think it’s the biggest problem.

So, do you think mankind is evil, by nature? Is that what Christianity says, after the Fall? I guess I always thought babies were born innocent, but this world Quickly corrupts them. I guess I can kind of see why we’d be already flawed, since our parents sinned. Maybe it’s both?

I read those things about Paul.
Do you think God chooses certain people to convert? Or is it all up to us? No, I don’t mean exactly predestined. But does He make more of an effort with some people than with others. Sorry, another silly question.

Here’s another. Is the only reason to believe that God is totally good (incapable of doing bad, by nature—yes, I mean what we perceive as “bad”, but come on, letting innocent babies be tortured when you can do something about it has to be bad for real, doesn’t it?) because it says so in scripture? I think He could love us very much, but still sacrifice any of us—let even innocent children suffer and die-- for His big plan. He even let His Son die. I have no idea what that plan is, but I suspect it has to do with getting as many of us saved as possible—so we all make the right choices, and end up with Him. Yes, that IS awesome. But then, that’s exactly why it’s hard to worship a god like that, isn’t it? Someone who lets innocent people suffer, even if it’s for the greater good. That makes God kind of pitiable in my eyes. I guess the payoff is in eternal life, but does that excuse what’s happening in this life? That's really the whole question, isn't it? How can I come to believe that? I know my thinking must be very immature, and I can imagine anyone reading this just groaning, but if you help me out, I’d appreciate it.
I just realized this post is all over the place. I shouldn't be asking this many different questions. Sorry, i'll leave it alone. All I have is questions right now.

I just ordered those books you recommended, Starkman. I read the descriptions and decided they look like something I can handle, Thank God :) And, we can afford it right now. I decided I can't keep relying on the kindness of strangers, so to speak, so, yes, I'll do some homework.

Edited by - deal22000 on 01/09/2002 3:05:06 PM

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/9/2002 10:02 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

While I’m thinking about it though, what does this relationship entail? I thought relationship meant two-way communication, for one thing. When I tried to pray or talk to God, I didn’t hear anything back. Is that my fault, for not hearing? Also, what am I to say. Thanks, I guess, for starters, but after that, it seems like whenever I asked for something, as a kid—I mean Important things—it never worked anyway

a relationship with God is definately a two-way thing! about hearing God, every Christian struggles with that. most of us simply don't spend the time allowing God to speak to us. we get so busy doing what we do that we don't spend time listening for his voice. think about when you read someones writing (even on this board). after familiarizing yourself with them you begin to get a look at what's inside them, what's in their heart. as you grow in your relationship with God you begin to know his heart and know his voice. when you ask for things, it is important to know that we don't always know what we are asking for. most times we ask out of selfishness for our own benefit. he ALWAYS answers prayer-sometimes with a no. i encourage you to keep praying and keep listening for God to speak to you because HE WILL.

quote:

Do you think God would be more interested in someone having faith, or in someone doing good things? Or, maybe the answer is both. As a parent, I like to get a thank-you now and then, but mostly it’s more important to me that my kids turn out to be good people. Yes, I think that involves being appreciative, also.

my personal opinion is faith. faith is not apart from deeds however. they work hand in hand. when someone has faith, the deeds will follow. when you trust in God as your saviour, you begin to want to align yourself with the way God wants you to act.

quote:

I’m a control freak. So, maybe that gets in my way. It’s not only (somewhat, but not only) that I want things done my way, but I figure, No one else is going to do them for me. But I see what you mean, about how that is a problem in accepting Christianity. But I don’t think it’s the biggest problem.

it just may not be the biggest problem, but its a huge one. why is it that more people don't become christians? because they want to control their own lives. 'i want to control my destiny, and do what i think is right.' they are scared to surrender control to someone outside themselves. at some point, in order to become a christian, you will have to surrender control, and just say 'i need you, i can't do this on my own.'

quote:

So, do you think mankind is evil, by nature? Is that what Christianity says, after the Fall? I guess I always thought babies were born innocent, but this world Quickly corrupts them. I guess I can kind of see why we’d be already flawed, since our parents sinned. Maybe it’s both?

by the sin of Adam and eve, we are born as sinners. babies are not born innocent (it becomes a different issue about whether they go to heaven or not).

quote:

I read those things about Paul.
Do you think God chooses certain people to convert? Or is it all up to us? No, I don’t mean exactly predestined. But does He make more of an effort with some people than with others. Sorry, another silly question.

this is not a silly question at all. in my opinion (which may be much different from whatever you've heard, and is probably different from some of the people on this board) i think it is up to us. by choosing, we don't save ourselves, but we allow ourselves to be saved. the only way we can choose God is that he gives us grace. calvinists will say that God elects some and damns some. with humans having no choice.

quote:

Is the only reason to believe that God is totally good (incapable of doing bad, by nature—yes, I mean what we perceive as “bad”, but come on, letting innocent babies be tortured when you can do something about it has to be bad for real, doesn’t it?) because it says so in scripture? I think He could love us very much, but still sacrifice any of us—let even innocent children suffer and die-- for His big plan. He even let His Son die. I have no idea what that plan is, but I suspect it has to do with getting as many of us saved as possible—so we all make the right choices, and end up with Him. But then, that’s exactly why it’s hard to worship a god like that, isn’t it? Someone who lets innocent people suffer, even if it’s for the greater good. That makes God kind of pitiable in my eyes. I guess the payoff is in eternal life, but does that excuse what’s happening in this life? That's really the whole question, isn't it? How can I come to believe that? I know my thinking must be very immature, and I can imagine anyone reading this just groaning, but if you help me out, I’d appreciate it.

let me just start off by saying that some of the answers on this board may be significantly different from what you will hear from other churches and from many other christians. i believe the majority of the answers you will recieve on this board are in fact the right ones. God can be totally good without being resposible for evil (it's tougher if you're a calvinist). he has given humans the ability to choose love, and equally, the ability to choose evil. gods ultimate plan by sending jesus to die is to provide us with a way to heaven. by giving us this choice, he can't ensure that everyone will pick love (and by looking at this worlds it's easy to see that few pick love). so evil occurs, but that doesn't mean God determines it. i believe that he is deeply grieved by it. but he does allow it. (this is a whole huge debate in itself! once again this is my view) the only way we are excused from whats happening in this life is by Jesus dying for our sins.

anybody out there reading this, please correct any mistakes i've made.

deal, keep asking questions. we are more than happy to answer your questions. it not only helps you, but it helps us know and explain what we believe in. keep thinking about it. don't rest until you find answers to the questions you have!

June

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/10/2002 3:44 AM (GMT -6)

First, sorry if this doesn't post correctly. I don't seem to have the options to post a new reply, or edit anything right now. so, I'm not sure what's going to appear.

Hi June. Thanks for the information. Yes, I see what you’re saying about, until you get to know someone, you may hear the words they’re saying, but you may not get at all the real thing they’re trying to say. Sure, I read posts on here a bunch of times before I think I got what the person was saying…I mean, from the heart...even then, I may have misinterpreted. But I don’t Hear or See God saying anything to me. I was thinking, why isn’t He more direct. Then I thought, okay, maybe this IS the ONLY way He could know for sure if what we are doing, the choices we make, are out of love Or out of self-interest, or fear. If He came straight out and told us, we’d be simply stupid to do anything else, right? That wouldn’t count for much, as far as how good a person we are. But, supposedly, he wants us anyway, doesn’t he? So, he wants us, BUT, only if we admit we’re sinners and need him? Wait a minute, I think I just got something. That’s not that hard to do, if I think God is Always doing the best he can do also. That’s way better than I can do. Still doesn’t make Him perfectly good or perfectly powerful in my mind, though. Seems he’s one or the other.
About praying. Yes, I’ll admit, most of my prayers were totally selfish. Sometimes, though, June, they Really weren’t.
You said you think faith is more important to God than actions. I would disagree totally, if I were God. But then, as you said, if faith necessarily means that the actions follow, then, there’s no argument.

When I thought about it again, I see that maybe giving up control IS a bigger problem than I thought. We’re talking about trust. It’s not hard to say, “Hey I can’t do this right, I need help”—well, yes, it is hard, but what’s harder is saying “Here, take over. I’ll do whatever you say.” Big difference to me.
No, I’m not a Calvinist, and I have a hard time understanding how someone could think that way. But who knows, lots of things I don’t understand

I wasn’t asking if we’re excused from the evil we do, I meant, is God excused from the evil he allows? I guess that’s it—we have to choose. Sounds like not a very nice choice, either way.

Thanks. I don’t think I’ll rest much anyway. :)

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/10/2002 11:56 AM (GMT -6)

Deal, sir!

Had a post all ready for you and my stupid puter (computer, that is) done died. Happened when the fool thing tried to go into sleep mode on the hard drive. Yeah, I'll say it went into sleep mode! Sheesh! So, I went and prayed for you instead! Much better for ya anyway!!!

I'll get it re-written again hopefully tonight!

Love ya, man!

Starkman

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/10/2002 8:48 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Deal,

Well, I'm finally able to get to this post...at, what, 12:30am, for pete's sake? Gads! Oh well, better late (literally) than never, eh! I had done this post earlier but, as noted in my post above, the fool computer went blitzo! Oh, I just love it when it does that, and I really love it when I'm foolish and I don't save what I'm working on as I'm going along! And me, a former computer tech! HA! NOT THIS TIME! I'm (saving) saving every (saving again) other secon (saving)d!

Okay, let's rap!

You said, "I thought relationship meant two-way communication, for one thing. When I tried to pray or talk to God, I didn’t hear anything back. Is that my fault, for not hearing? Also, what am I to say."

Remember, God's not sitting next to you in physical form (oh, I know you know that!), so we're into something here a little different. It's one of the reasons why Hebrews 11:6 says "Without faith it is impossible to please Him. For he that comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Hiim". And to diligently seek God is to do what the OT and NT both state: to love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strenght, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Deut 6:5, Mark 12:30 (and also in Math and Luke).

As is the case with any relationship, time and communion must take place. Growth is bound to follow along with more answers and more insight.

Evil? Why doesn't God do something about it? Oh, good friend, He has. He has! Why, He sent His son to destroy the work of Satan and render him powerless - I John 3:8 (the whole chapter's good) and Hebrews 2:14.

Remember too that there is freewill at issue here. Not just for us humans but for spiritual agents also that goes back further in time than our existance. There are rules by which God plays by in respect to freewill. He has already destroyed the work and power of Satan with regard to his stronghold of death, but the fullness of this victory is yet to come. But be assured, it will come! In the meantime there is war. Ugly war going on. It involves incidents that often times are horribly ugly, unfair, senseless, and heartbreaking. NEVER forget, Deal, that God sees all of this who but He alone can fathom the pain of it all. Were there to be an immediate fix, it would have been done ages ago. It will come.

Finally, if God were to eradicate all evil, it would be the eradication of all of us, for we all to some degree do evil still. Even the great apostle Paul was faced with the possibility of a major ego trip and God had to work on that one - II Cor 12:7-9, Galatians 2:11-14 (Peter gets chewed out by Paul for hypocracy). Never ends with us, does it! But, again, it will soon one day.

Saving as I go!

Now about faith verses being good? Hey, Hebrews 11:6 is the big gun here. In a relationship with God (and for that matter anyone, talking about just being good if you don't have faith (trust!). Nicities are nice, goodities are good (huh?) but it all comes down to a growing and developing trust in one you come to know. God's patient just as you would be with your kids until they get it right!

On God's love and desire for salvation for people; for some more than others or equally? Note II Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Also, note I Timothy 2:4 - "Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth". God equally desires all to be saved.

About our fallen nature, you said: "I guess I can kind of see why we’d be already flawed, since our parents sinned." Exactly. Children too. But God's been clear in Scripture that He's not out to nail them with sin when they don't even know yet what it is. Another subject for another time. Just be content at the moment that your relationship with your kids is to have been a model of how God is with us. Love rules!

Continuing on here...

In your post to June just after mine, you said, "So, he wants us, BUT, only if we admit we’re sinners and need him? Wait a minute, I think I just got something. That’s not that hard to do, if I think God is Always doing the best he can do also. That’s way better than I can do. Still doesn’t make Him perfectly good or perfectly powerful in my mind, though." Hmm! Thinking this through, you are, Deal! Let's consider what you said just before this:

"I see what you’re saying about, until you get to know someone, you may hear the words they’re saying, but you may not get at all the real thing they’re trying to say. Sure, I read posts on here a bunch of times before I think I got what the person was saying…I mean, from the heart...even then, I may have misinterpreted. But I don’t Hear or See God saying anything to me. I was thinking, why isn’t He more direct."

A repeat on some of your post to let it hit us:
"...until you get to know someone, you may hear the words they’re saying, but you may not get at all the real thing they’re trying to say. I read posts on here a bunch of times before I think I got what the person was saying…I mean, from the heart".

Now apply your approach to building relationships (even on boards like this) to God! You read His Word, you re-read and re-read. You ponder and TRUST that if He's who He said He is, He'll back it up. He'll speak (oh, maybe not the way you were expecting - get used to that, it's common. But He does speak).

It takes familiarity to begin to know what He means, what He's saying, who and what He is all about. "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink; and out of his belly will flow rivers of living waters" - John 7: 38. This flows with "Labor not for the meat which perishes, but for that meat which endures unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you; for him has God the Father sealed. And "It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". John 6:63 Very powerful! Remember the resurrection of Jesus; anyone who can conqure death and prove that He's who He said He is is well endowed with enough power to finish the rest! You may not understand all His power or how it is that He can be so powerful or all-knowing, but stay in the Word. Talk in basic, common words you'd use to talk to anyone. Be real and He'll be real. Draw close to Him and you have the promise that He'll draw close to you. James 4:8

Finally, Deal, you stated to June: "It’s not hard to say, “Hey I can’t do this right, I need help”—well, yes, it is hard, but what’s harder is saying “Here, take over. I’ll do whatever you say.” Big difference to me." Man, oh man, you pegged it against the wall, big time. Welcome to the bottom line! Rebellion, unbelief (hence lack of taking God at His Word and disobeying Him), doubt are the killers of killers. Oh, God is patient (and that's probably the big gun on His side: His wonderful, forgiving and patient love for and with us), but it's a life long battle to die to self, to let go and let God in all the ways He shows us to do so. THIS is where Christianity becomes hard. I won't lie to you, it's a bear and a half, but I wouldn't choose anything else.

As Peter said to Jesus in response to His question to the disciples "Will you also go away?" after so many quit following Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You alone have the words of eternal life". And so He does!

Be blessed, Deal!

Starkman

Edited by - Starkman on 01/11/2002 01:53:23 AM

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/11/2002 5:59 AM (GMT -6)

Thank you, Starkman.
Don’t you hate when the computer (yes, my daughter used to call it “puter” too--it always made me laugh) just goes haywire? I remember I had problems with “sleep” mode, so I finally just turned off that feature. Also, I learned a Long time ago to save everything, all the time. Hey, if you’re a former computer tech, I may ask you some computer questions sometime, if that’s okay.

I was rethinking the idea of faith. IF, faith means sort of a trust or belief in something better, or wiser than oneself, then, yes, I’d rather my children have that, than actually live up to it all the time. I mean, they’re going to fail, often—if they’re anything like me

. But if they keep trying, Trusting (like trusting that sometimes I actually do know better than they do!), then that is most important. Now, about God’s commanding us to love Him. I Never understood that. Unless he means that he knows he’s god, he Knows he’s goodness, so we need to believe in THAT. Second part, to love your neighbor as yourself. Sorry, I’ll try, but it probably won’t happen either. My family, maybe, but probably not all my neighbors. I’ll be nice, but that’s about as far as it goes. No way we’re going to keep all of these commandments. We all (me, you, Him—Everybody.) know that’s not possible. Many people will do better than I do (and I’m Nice

), some will do worse, but still, no one will entirely succeed.
Okay, you say he did something about evil. I was going to say no way, It’s still HERE. But I just thought of something. Yes, maybe there is no immediate fix. Of course, there Wouldn’t be. That’s the kind of thing I try to tell my kids. Things take time. So He came here and did something, but the results will take time, eh?

About God being perfectly good. I see that asserted in scripture. I was just thinking, God would have absolutely no reason to lie. Afterall, he wants us Willingly (and I can see why). A lie wouldn’t work. So, maybe he Is perfectly good. Now, whether that’s by nature or choice, still got me thinking.

BTW, do you people here just know these verses you quote off the top of your head, or do you just know the idea, and then look up where to find it? Either way, it’s impressive.
Thanks for the talk.

Edited by - deal22000 on 01/11/2002 11:04:15 AM

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/11/2002 8:41 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

I was rethinking the idea of faith. IF, faith means sort of a trust or belief in something better, or wiser than oneself, then, yes, I’d rather my children have that, than actually live up to it all the time. I mean, they’re going to fail, often—if they’re anything like me . But if they keep trying, Trusting (like trusting that sometimes I actually do know better than they do!), then that is most important.

fatih means trusting in a promise. the promise that if we believe in Jesus we will be saved.

quote:

Now, about God’s commanding us to love Him. I Never understood that. Unless he means that he knows he’s god, he Knows he’s goodness, so we need to believe in THAT.

God does not love by compulsion but persuasion, for compulsion is no attribute of God. (That was somebody's quote on this site somewhere). God wants us whole-heartedly, which is why he commands our love. He cannot stand luke-warm christians. luke-warm christians account for most of the atheists in our world.

quote:

Second part, to love your neighbor as yourself. Sorry, I’ll try, but it probably won’t happen either. My family, maybe, but probably not all my neighbors. I’ll be nice, but that’s about as far as it goes. No way we’re going to keep all of these commandments. We all (me, you, Him—Everybody.) know that’s not possible.

take a look at matthew 5, the sermon on the mount. christ gives a sermon about the standard that christians are to live up to. now we can never attain all that he lays out in his sermon. no one can perfectly keep all the commandments. which also means no one can get to heaven by works. which is exactly why we needed a perfect human to die for us. but he still expects us to try and strive to live according to what he commands.

quote:

About God being perfectly good. I see that asserted in scripture. I was just thinking, God would have absolutely no reason to lie. Afterall, he wants us Willingly (and I can see why). A lie wouldn’t work. So, maybe he Is perfectly good. Now, whether that’s by nature or choice, still got me thinking.

i believe God being perfectly good is part of his nature. it is partially what makes God who he is. so to me he doesn't have a choice whether or not he wants to be good. he can't go against his own nature.

quote:

BTW, do you people here just know these verses you quote off the top of your head, or do you just know the idea, and then look up where to find it? Either way, it’s impressive.

for me i have a basic idea of where the verse is then i look it up. i'm really working on trying to memorize scripture

i can't tell you how many times i've been in a situation and a verse that if memorized just comes into my head and gets me through.

Ever read Boyd's book 'Letters from a skeptic'? i'd recommend checking that out. it will answer many of the questions you have.
For whatever its worth

June

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/11/2002 12:13 PM (GMT -6)

I'm short on time here, so I'm going to try to just hit one thing at a time. thanks much, June, for the response.
Here’s the thing. I’m wondering, do we invent a god, Or not even invent him BUT do we define his attributes, and then try to believe in him? Alright, that’s really a dumb statement, but that’s at the heart of all this, isn’t it? (and that doesn’t even make sense to me) OR do we say THERE’S A GOD, LET’S GET TO KNOW HIM—and No matter what, perfectly good or not, by nature or by choice, He’s as good as we know (and the question is--How much can we know), so let’s worship him. Or not. Based on the evidence we see. I guess that's it, we all simply cast a vote, based on the evidence we see. I guess I'm just looking for a better candidate.
Yes, that was the whole start of this post of mine here. How do you think about casualties of war, and the general in charge. Yes, I know, I should go to the Omnibenevolence of God thread, but I didn’t want to intrude there. I can’t back up what I’m saying with Scripture or anything, but I will try to start learning that. I just am saying what I think, from what I’ve experienced in life.

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 1/11/2002 12:50 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Deal and June.
Nice conversation we have going on here, isn't it!

Well, I'm short on time, too, so I'll make this kind of quick...

Faith. Faith in what? God, some idea of attributes we attribute to Him? Hmmm! Let's talk!

Our world perspective tells us that no matter what religion, believe or concept of life one holds, man constantly does two things consistantly: he contradicts what he says he believes, whether it's moral, ethical or anything for that matter; secondly, he has no problem living in some sort of evil - large or small scale, doesn't matter. Even children prove how easy it is to lie or steal. And where it's not seen by other eyes, one's heart is never untrue to this principle - man exhibits bad, wrong, ugly, evil thoughts. He may not like it, but it's there.

Christianity addresses these issues and more. For it explains why! It explains the cause. It explains what's been done about it and what's yet to be done about it. It explains a God who gave us morals, ethics in our very own heart. All of this is found in the Word of God. And if one does not have the Word of God handy, he can surely tell by his own heart that something's wrong, for as I say he contradicts (daily) what he believes and finds evil always lurking in the hidden crevices of his heart.

So, God calls for us to have...faith. Faith? Yes, faith that what He's said is true, real, a complete and fully contained world-view answer to these dilemmas of mankind. God asks for our heart, all of it. For to leave any of it unpledged to Him is to leave one's self fully available to slide into to the eternal depth of despair and darkness. For, as Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters.

There came a time when the very Son of God came and revealed God in ways that had never been revealed before. He expressed love, heart, hand-to-hand relationship. They could touch Him, cry with Him, eat with Him and love Him. His death was what they couldn't comprehend, though, they also would come not only to understand that but to partake in it themselves.

Faith, this kind of faith, is that which transcends "Okay, I believe" and starts with the very heart and essence of life. It's contact by soul and spirit, trusting, seeking, pouring out of one and into another - the very Creator. "I am your God". "You shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with all your heart".

Faith grabs God and says "I will not let you go until you bless me". Faith is "Though He slay me yet will I trust in Him". Faith throws all of the heart of man that can be found into the depths of the unseen; God is faithfull. He will save us and deliver us from death and evil and will take us where He is to find eternal life where faith will no longer be needed.

Faith is the hand of God offering food to the begger. Our hand in His, forever, if only now in spirit.

Must go!

For the Master,

Starkman

deal22000
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 1/12/2002 4:59 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, this is quite a three-way conversation, isn’t it?
Anyway, I’m learning a lot. Mostly, that I need to learn a lot more.

Faith sounds desperate. But many of us don’t know how desperate we are. Is that what you are saying, Starkman? Actually, what you said was very moving.

When you say, June, that God can’t stand luke-warm Christians, what do you mean? People who have doubts? I thought you said everyone has doubts. People who don’t live up to being Christian—acting and thinking like Christ All the time? I thought that was everybody too. I know some atheists who are more Christ-like than some people who say they are Christians. Maybe you meant being luke-warm about their intentions to do right, though. I’m thinking that loving God with all my heart, etc., means Wanting and trying to do what He wants me to do—that is, be good, follow his example. And, acknowledging the fact that He is our Creator--superior to us in every way.
I’m going to take some time to think about this.

June
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105

Posted 1/13/2002 5:19 AM (GMT -6)

deal,
you have quite a knack for answering your own questions!

what i mean when i say luke-warm is not that christians have doubts. like i said before, everyone has doubts, and that doesn't make you less faithful. it doesn't mean those christians who don't live up to God's standards, because none of us ever can.

To me, it means those christians who know the truth but just go through life without letting Christ work in them or work through them. those who go to church on sunday, then forget about God until next sunday. i mean those who acknowledge God with their lips, but with their actions, deny him. i mean those christians who lead sort of a double life. when they are with other christains, the act christianly. but in other situations, the act like they are not.

June

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