Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

OrthodoxBerean
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 82

Posted 1/18/2002 3:45 AM (GMT -6)

What is the view of the people in here concerning total depravity?

According to the Calvinist we cannot will to accept Christ unless we are first regenerated to do so. Do you accept this? If not why?

How can one that has only evil thoughts continually come to realize of their own volition that they are evil and that they need Christ?

Questioning
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37

Posted 1/19/2002 1:51 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

What is the view of the people in here concerning total depravity?

According to the Calvinist we cannot will to accept Christ unless we are first regenerated to do so. Do you accept this? If not why?

How can one that has only evil thoughts continually come to realize of their own volition that they are evil and that they need Christ?

OrthodoxBerean,
This is something that I am interested in looking at. Somewhere I read that the death of Christ is what makes us able to choose Christ. This is really different from the classical view that teaches God chooses who will be believe in Christ. Hopefully this will be an active thread because I am especially interested in this topic.

Some people are like cement. All mixed up and permanently set.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/19/2002 5:27 PM (GMT -6)

kcy1998: Somewhere I read that the death of Christ is what makes us able to choose Christ.

I hope that you will find that, and help explain it. By itself it looks abstract.

. . . . .

BTW -- as far as I'm familiar, the word "classical" on a site like this refers to the "non-Open" view. do you mean "Calvinistic?" Accordingly, there can be both Calvinists and Arminean (sp?) who hold the "classical" view.

Edited by - potonwheel on 01/20/2002 3:25:54 PM

OrthodoxBerean
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 82

Posted 1/20/2002 12:07 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

OrthodoxBerean,
This is something that I am interested in looking at. Somewhere I read that the death of Christ is what makes us able to choose Christ. This is really different from the classical view that teaches God chooses who will be believe in Christ. Hopefully this will be an active thread because I am especially interested in this topic.

Some people are like cement. All mixed up and permanently set.

I would be interersted in knowing about what you read. I hope you find it as well.

So far I cannot see how anyone can reach a different conclusion, then again I see that this view tampers with the Open View. I hope some Open Theist will respond in this thread.

Questions should be more prominent that answers

still_unsure
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54

Posted 1/20/2002 1:06 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Ortho:

I think most people don't have a problem with total depravity as much as with "unconditional election" and "limited atonement"an "irresistable Grace". The Bible does seem to indicate that saving faith is unatainable without God's help. To go beyond this you become Pelagian, no?
The Bible also says that God wills none to perish so from this I belive He draws ALL men and women to Himself, contra Calvinism.
Isn't it interesting that on first tasting Calvinism most shrink back in horror. Doesn't sound much like "Good News" does it?
Rob

OrthodoxBerean
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 82

Posted 1/20/2002 2:58 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Hi Ortho:

I think most people don't have a problem with total depravity as much as with "unconditional election" and "limited atonement"an "irresistable Grace". The Bible does seem to indicate that saving faith is unatainable without God's help. To go beyond this you become Pelagian, no?
The Bible also says that God wills none to perish so from this I belive He draws ALL men and women to Himself, contra Calvinism.
Isn't it interesting that on first tasting Calvinism most shrink back in horror. Doesn't sound much like "Good News" does it?
Rob

How and when does/did God draw all men? Would you say this was done at Calvary? If so how do you respond to John 6:44 where he says that those that are drawn he will raise up at the last day, indicating that there will be none that are drawn that will not be rasied up thus rendering the Calvinst view correct.

PotOnWheel what do you think about this?

Questions should be more prominent that answers

still_unsure
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54

Posted 1/20/2002 8:05 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Ortho:

You wrote:

"How and when does/did God draw all men? Would you say this was done at Calvary? If so how do you respond to John 6:44 where he says that those that are drawn he will raise up at the last day, indicating that there will be none that are drawn that will not be rasied up thus rendering the Calvinst view correct."

John 12:30
Jesus said "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgement on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

I think Jesus speaks of his death, resurection and glorification. It is through this act of LOVE that He draws all men. It is through this act of selflessness that God draws men to Himself. Look to the cross for the ability to believe. It was this demonstration of God's supreme love for us all that inspires those who follow after Him.
It not a case of ability/inability, it's a case of God providing a Way and your accepting what God offers you...life.

Regarding John 6:44, that verse must be viewed in light of the whole counsel of scripture. Unless you are universalist, obviously Jesus taught death was a real alternative to Life. But you can't read more into a particular scripture than what is explicitly stated there. It's not meant to teach that all who are drawn will be raised on the last day. It's stating that salvation is God's doing, not ours, and that Jesus's sacrificial act will be the method of salvation.
Volumes have been written about Calvinism/Arminianism and every other "ism" thought up by men. I'm sure my understanding of any is less than perfect. But Christian "exclusivism" is something that I feel despoils God's image and glory. I know many disagree and you must decide on your own which view best describes the God of the Bible.
blessings,
Rob

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/20/2002 11:09 AM (GMT -6)

[]bOB wrote:

quote:
PotOnWheel what do you think about this?

Questions should be more prominent that answers

I noticed that second sentence in two posts. Maybe it is not directed to me. But I like it and will embrace accordingly!

I really want to stay out of the way, and read what y'all write. but I'll place something from one pocket and from another on the table; since I'm asked. Feel free to set aside if you wish.

One is regarding to "saving faith." I noticed a Max Lucado quote in Sunday School (at a Calvinist/Dutch Reformed church) this morning, that referred to "saving faith." Does faith save? ("By GRACE, through faith...") I am suspecting more and more (becoming deeply influenced by the Eastern Orthodox) whether that whole juridical view of salvation really affects how everything else is constructed (Augustine's inherited-guilt and imputed-righteousness). So, I rather like the talk that speaks about us "being saved"; as it also goes well with the "running the race" metaphor. Here is aLINK to a Q&A on the subject of salvation, where the priest says that if we "are" saved then we don't need a Savior. We do need Christ. WE don't have salvation: He does. So--and I like this--HE is our salvation. HE is (in the construction of "Saved by Grace")...He is our GRACE/GIFT.

That was from one pocket. The other pocket is yet to be typed. It has to do with a pre-Calvinist/pre-Arminean way of thinking. Two representative sentences are:

After the fall, it was no longer possible for man's personal distinctiveness and freedom to transcend the natural demands of autonomy and self-sufficiency for the individual biological entity.

With the incarnation of God the Word, however, the natural gulf between man and God is removed, the "middle wall of partition" is destroyed (Eph 2:14). In the first Adam, the natural desire for self-substance became an autonomous force and condemned his race to expend its existence in the survival of mortal individuality. But now this is reversed: the divine and human natures are joined together and the two natural wills brought into harmony in the person of Christ, the second Adam, and this frees human nature from its self-imposed bondage within the existential limits of mortal individuality. In the person of Christ, human nature subsists as a personal hypostasis of communion with the divinity. The personal, theanthropic existence of Christ hypostasizesthe moral being of man; it forms a "new creation," a new humanity which exists in communion with the Father just as it has been assumed, mortal and bloodstained by the hypostatic love of the Son.

(P.S. This is from The Freedom of Morality, by Christos Yannaras.

Unpacking that... The PROBLEM is our "autonomy and self-sufficiency". (Sin) The "individual biological entity", I think, refers to our mortality. The sin-death-sin-death-sin... cycle that we can not break by ourselves. That Christ took on himself and "broke" on the cross -- "trampling down death by death."

The SOLUTION is "the divine and human natures. . .joined. . .in the person of Christ", "a new humanity which exists in communion with the Father"

There is a mystery there. But I don't think that is quite the abstraction that the more common Evangelical and Reformation views offer.

What do you think?

Edited by - potonwheel on 01/20/2002 4:10:50 PM

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 1:23 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual