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boljer
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 18

Posted 2/6/2002 2:50 PM (GMT -6)

Is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit? If so--when do you get baptised in the Spirit?(Conversion?) and is the filling of the spirit a subsequent experience to salvation? What then is the evidence of this filling of God's Spirit???!!!

Jered P. Boley

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 2/7/2002 2:50 AM (GMT -6)

Jered-

You’ll no doubt get different answers from folks on this site. Here’s mine…

As a Pentecostal/Charismatic (both groups are similar but different as I see them, but I just want to let you know basically where I’m coming from) I’d argue that there is a (logically) subsequent work of the Spirit that is primarily related not to soteriological concerns (i.e, justification and sanctification) but rather to the empowerment, gifting, and equipping of believers for witness and vocation. I prefer to speak of these as different “aspects” or “dimensions” of the one Spirit’s work as opposed to first and second “works of grace” (which I think is meaningless anymore).

I tend to come from a biblical/theology understanding of this as opposed to a systematic approach. So I see real differences between Luke and Paul for instance. I very much like the work of Bob Menzies (listed below) who seeks to identify Luke’s understanding of the Spirit vis-à-vis Paul’s understanding. Luke is free to focus exclusively on dimensions of the Spirit’s work in the life of the believer that are related to post-conversion concerns. Thus, for me, the distinctive Pentecostal doctrine of subsequence stands or falls on Luke. Paul has virtually nothing to say about it because (in my view) it’s not his concern. Paul’s understanding of the Spirit assumes Luke’s contribution but focuses on other concerns. Many Pentecostal writers have (rightly I think) challenged the tendency of the majority to read Luke through Pauline eyes.

I’m running through this too quickly! Sorry Jered.

In the end, I refuse to get hung up on the nomenclature. Call it “subsequent” or not, “infilling” or “baptism,” “Pentecostal,” “Charismatic,” or whatever. I’ve spent lots of hours talking to people about this and in the end we always wound up getting behind the terms used to the essential experiential element that Pentecostals and Charismatics insist on (and which many if not most non-Pentecostal believers now recognize as legitimate even if they disagree with the Pentecostal’s articulation of the theology behind it). In my view this experiential element could be summarized simply as “encountering the powerful presence of the Spirit.” Whether or not one decides to describe the empowering effects of the Spirit’s presence in the life of the believer as theologically one and the same with conversion or with a distinct work of the Spirit logically (and theologically) subsequent to conversion, who cares? My concern is that believers everywhere come into the full enjoyment of all that the Spirit of God wants to do in them. To me this is the significant contribution Pentecostals have made this century to the wider Body of Christ (whether or not Pentecostals have always dotted every theological “i” or crossed every doctrinal “t” correctly).

My point, Jered, is that finding the correct theological answer to your question won’t guarantee that your experience of God’s Spirit is everything it can be. Don’t stop searching for an answer. Just know that finding the right answer is not the same as experiencing the empowering presence of God’s Spirit. If you want to use the view that “Spirit-baptism” is synonymous with conversion and on this basis end your pursuit of this empowering dimension of the Spirit’s work in your life, then I’d say your short-changing yourself. On the other hand I’ve talked to classical Pentecostals who (I think) possess a theology which ought to lead them naturally to an ever-deepening experience of the Spirit but who are unfortunately as dead as a doornail.

I know Mephi will want to jump in here.

There’s a lot more to say, but I have to run. Here are a few good books to check out:

J. Rodman Williams’s Renewal Theology: Salvation, the Holy Spirit, and Christian Living, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1990).

Roger Stronstad’s The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke, (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1984). Excellent little book that outlines a Lukan (as opposed to a Pauline) understanding of the Spirit’s work.

Howard M. Ervin’s Conversion-Initiation and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1984). Ervin takes on Dunn here.

William W. and Robert P. Menzies, Spirit and Power: Foundations of Pentecostal Experience, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2000). An excellent book. Written for lay people. Bob Menzies is a missionary in China and a great NT scholar (Aberdeen under I. Howard Marshall).

Robert Menzies, The Development of Early Christian Pneumatology, (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press: 2000). Bob’s Ph.D. diss. (heavy and technical, but very good). The above book, Spirit and Power is a popularized version of his thesis.

Pentecostalism in Context: Essays in Honor of William W. Menzies, ed. Wonsuk Ma and Robert P. Menzies, (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1997).

Gary B. McGee, ed., Initial Evidence: Historical and Biblical Perspectives on the Pentecostal Doctrine of Spirit Baptism, (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1991). Some chapters are useless, but chapter nine, “New Directions in Hermeneutics” by Donald A. Johns is worth the whole book.

Blessings,
Tom

Edited by - TGB on 02/07/2002 07:54:11 AM

Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 2/7/2002 3:12 AM (GMT -6)

Actually, Tom, there's not much more for me to say here. You've pretty much said everything I'd have said. And the book choices were tight. (I had Dr. Ervin for a couple of classes. Cool ain't the word.

)

Well, let me add just TWO MORE book ideas here...

H. I. Lederle's Treasures Old and New: Interpretations of 'Spirit-Baptism' in the Charismatic Renewal Movement (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1988) Excellent.

and

Max Turner's The Holy Spirit and Spiritual Gifts: In the New Testament Church and Today (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1998) 2nd ed. In the first half of the book, Turner discusses trends of the development of New Testament pneumatology. He talks about Lukan as compared to Pauline takes on the Spirit...and he discusses some of Menzies' ideas. Check it out.

Jered, you have probably noticed that both Tom and I cite books from Hendrickson and Sheffield publishing companies. This is because they put forth consistently scholarly works on Pentecostal/Charismatic theology. Just a note for your future reference and research, Jered.

Holla,

Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love.

Edited by - mephi2K on 02/07/2002 08:12:45 AM

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 2/7/2002 3:21 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Actually, Tom, there's not much more for me to say here.

Mephi-

You don't know how awesome I feel when you and I agree!

Like music to my ears!

Tom

boljer
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 18

Posted 2/7/2002 11:14 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the input and book reccomendations...One practical --nontheological book I reccomend is Benny Hinn's Good Morning Holy Spirit!!!! SELAH

Jered P. Boley

rb1963b
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/7/2002 2:58 PM (GMT -6)

Oh, Benny Hinn who stated that God the Father is a trinity, God the Son is a trinity, and God the Holy Spirit is a trinity?
A person is baptized BY the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, he is subsequently either full of the Holy Spirit or of himself thereafter.

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/7/2002 5:11 PM (GMT -6)

Another book worth mentioning (I think some of you guys may have figured by now he is one of my favs) is Gordon Fee's:

"Gospel and Spirit: Issues in New Testament Hermeneutics"

He specifically addresses the issue of "subsequent experience" after salvation and I think it is the best refutation of it thus far.

If I am correct one of the authors in one of Zondervans "Four Views" books on the gifts took occasion to Fee's view. But...ehhhh...

Also, Tom, the biggest beef that I have with J. Rodman Williams book is that there is nothing uniquely Charismatic about it! Gotta agree with Pinnock on that one. It reads more like a book on typical systematic theology in the vein of Millard Erickson's "Christian Theology." Got the book, and think it's great for starters, but after that...ehhhh

Strondstad's book is great too. I love what he says about the church and Holy Spirit in the beginning. This is Pentecostal theology coming of age.

The problem that I see for boljer is that if he is reading stuff in the vein of Hinn, maybe the stuff we are recommending here will go past him. Let me recommend another book for starters. Probably best at this point. It is in narrative style and easily readable. Jack Deere's "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit." When I lived in Dallas, I visited the church with my wife on a couple of occassions that Deere mentions at the beginning of the book. We have some mutual friends that go there. Needless to say, the church has been ousted out of their denomination for moving in a Pentecostal/Charismatic direction from my understanding.

Have at Jared! Happy reading! You've got your work cut out for ya!

Brandon

Edited by - BBBCanada on 02/07/2002 10:14:17 PM

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 2/8/2002 3:32 AM (GMT -6)

Jered-

Check out the comments regarding the difference between Luke and Paul in the "When were the Gospels written?" thread.

Tom

boljer
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 18

Posted 2/8/2002 6:57 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the reccomendations and all the input everyone has given me...In your opinion,,,what is the absolute best theologically based in depth study book on issues dealing with the Holy Ghost and the giftings...etc..?????THanks again--

Jered P. Boley

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/8/2002 7:55 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Thanks for the reccomendations and all the input everyone has given me...In your opinion,,,what is the absolute best theologically based in depth study book on issues dealing with the Holy Ghost and the giftings...etc..?????THanks again--

Jered P. Boley

Wellllll...one of the best books I would have to say is by Fee entitled, "God's Empowering Presence." If you can handle almost a thousand pages.

Here are some reviews at amazon.com
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/094357594X/qid=1013194309/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-1290162-5393461

Brandon

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 2/8/2002 8:06 AM (GMT -6)

Brandon beat me to it! Fee's Empowering Presence. Mind you, you never agree with everbody 100% of the time, but Fee is so thorough, conscientious, and fair (plus he's unapoloetically and thoroughly Pentecostal in his experience), you can't do better.

Tom

I also like Robert Menzies, and Craig Keener has a couple titles to his credit on this issue.

The person you DON'T want to read for theology's sake is...sorry, Benny Hinn.

Edited by - TGB on 02/08/2002 1:09:48 PM

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/8/2002 1:27 PM (GMT -6)

OK. OK. I didn't want to slam "Blowing Benny" (opps...ummmm...did I say that?). But Tom is right on the money on Hinn, boljer. Especially on "Good Morning Holy Spirit."

If you can ever get your hands on this article, get it. Found at www.jpusa.org.

Here's a quick link to it, although you can't read it online, maybe you can write them and request a copy.
www.cornerstonemag.com/archives/iss101.htm

I was trying to be nice and positive by suggesting "Surprised" but Benny is...just...well... way out there. I not only NOT read him for theology, I don't read or listen to him for anything but to just cry.

You know he was confronted about all his error a while back by James Robinson and I think Jack Hayford. And it seemed for awhile there he was going straight.

But then he took an about face. I think the guy is market-driven myself.

Brandon

Edited by - BBBCanada on 02/08/2002 6:28:44 PM

boljer
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 18

Posted 2/10/2002 9:47 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the suggestions on Fee's books...I have read his "how to read the bible for all it's worth." Good stuff...I don't understand about Benny HInn.....??!?!I guess I just grew u p never really questioning his ministry or his theological beliefs....WHat is it specificcaly about him you don't agree with..?????Please tell me--I'm very curiuos...

Thanks ---Jered

Jered P. Boley

boljer
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 18

Posted 2/10/2002 3:42 PM (GMT -6)

Also -while on the subject of theology, is there any such thing out there as a big book that sort of encompasses all the main theological issues in an in depth understanding yet semi-easy to read??? Thanks again...

Jered P. Boley

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/13/2002 11:36 AM (GMT -6)

Enquiring minds want to know!!!

Jered, I love it! Seeker of the truth! Way

! Alrighty, do a search on the 'puter for Hinn. Here let me save you the time.
www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/h01.html

There is a summary critique of "Good Morning Holy Spirt" on there. But this site should be enough to keep ya busy for awhile.
www.thedoormagazine.com/webintro/toons/11_22_00car.html
www.thedoormagazine.com/webintro/toons/9_21_00car.html
www.thedoormagazine.com/webintro/toons/4_20_00car.html
www.thedoormagazine.com/webintro/toons/1_13_00car.html
www.thedoormagazine.com/webintro/toons/11_11_99car.html

Also for your post on looking for a book that encompasses theological issues, one that is recommended on the "Open Theism" site is "Christianity 101." Here is the link with excerpts.
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0310577012/slide-show/lib_dp_sp_1/103-3421751-7597461#reader-link

Brandon
Hurt people...hurt people.

Edited by - BBBCanada on 02/13/2002 5:20:38 PM

boljer
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 18

Posted 2/13/2002 3:18 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the references...

Jered P. Boley

Fivefold
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 18

Posted 2/23/2002 12:09 PM (GMT -6)

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit

All God's promises to the believer are appropriated by faith. Our faith cannot embrace that which God does not
promise to do in His Word. Thus we must ground our faith
in the Word of God, for faith comes by hearing and believ-
ing the Word. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is clearly
promised the believer in the Word of God, but one cannot
receive this empowering and blessing until he has gotten
over any doubts or doctrinal questions about the
possibility if being filled.

To remove doubts we recommend a study of the Word of
God. If a humble, sincere study of the teachings of
Scripture does not quicken one's faith for this experience
then all other arguments and examples would be super-
fluous.

For the sake of those who have been erroneously taught
to equate receiving the Holy Spirit in regeneration with
the "baptism" in the Holy Spirit I shall set forth the
basic passages where the truth of the baptism is taught
for your study in order to remove doubts and create faith.

A study of the relevant passages will also indicate
that certain terms and phrases are used synonymously with
reference to the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The New Testament equates the following with each other: "The
baptism in the Holy Spirit," "filled with the Spirit,"
"the gift of the Spirit," "pouring out of the Spirit,"
"receiving the Spirit," etc. Compare, for example, Acts
1: 4-5 with 2:4; 11:17-17, where the terms "baptized,"
"filled," and "gift," are used synonymously.

1. THE PROMISE

Old Testament Prophecy. Joel predicted that in the latter
days God would pour out His Spirit upon all flesh: "And it
shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my
Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters
shall prophesy" (Joel 2:28). This was first experienced on
the Day of Pentecost, when the 120 disciples were all
filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke with new languages
or tongues (Acts 2:1). But that it was not intended to be
limited to this initial outpouring is seen from Peter's
words of explanation of their experience in Acts 2:38-29
where the same gift of the Holy Spirit is promised to all
those who receive Christ 'for the promise is unto you, and
to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as
many as the Lord our God shall call." The promise of the
baptism in the Holy Spirit is without question for all
believers who will exercise faith to appropriate it.

New Testament Promise. The classic passage where Jesus
promises us the gift of the Holy Spirit is Luke 11:9-13.
Verse 13 reads: "if ye then being evil, know how to give
good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your
heavenly Father give the Holy spirit to them that ask
him?" The willingness of our heavenly Father to give us
the baptism of the Holy Spirit is clearly indicated here,
since, as a child of God, we already have the Spirit of
in regeneration (Rom. 8:9, 15-16). Christ also promises
the baptism in Acts 1:4-5, 8.

2. THE EVIDENCE: THE SIGN OF THE BAPTISM.

Is there a scriptural sign that one has been filled with
the Holy Spirit? I Believe there is. However, for some,
who for various reasons we cannot discuss here, have not
wanted to speak in tongues, but who say they believe the
baptism in the Holy Spirit is a valid experience for this
day, claim to have received the baptism without speaking
in new tongues. They speak of an "inward experience," of
an "anointing," of "being beside oneself with joy," of
"feeling great strength or love," etc. All of these so-
called evidences are based upon "feeling" or "emotion" of
which the Bible says nothing in regard to the baptism.
We must evaluate our experience in the light of Scripture;
when we do this, we find that speaking in a new language
or tongue supernaturally is the Scriptural sign of having
received the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Speaking in Tongues Was Predicted in the Old Testament.

(1) Joel 2:28-29. peter quotes this to authenticate the
divine source of their ability to speak the new languages
at Pentecost. Joel had predicted the outpouring or baptism;
Peter said the new tongues were the evidence or sign. Note
carefully it was the phenomenon of speaking in new tongues
that excited the Jews causing them to inquire: "What
meaneth this?"

(2) Isaiah 28:11-12. Paul cites this prophecy to indicate
that speaking in tongues in the Church had been predicted
by Isaiah. See I Corinthians 14:21-22.

This Sign Was Incontestable Proof to the Jewish Church
That the Holy Spirit Had Been Given to the Gentile
Christians.

Acts 10:44-45. It was when they heard them speak with
tongues that Peter declares that they "have received the
Holy Ghost as well as we." In Acts 11:16 he calls it the
"baptism in the Holy Ghost."

This Sign Was Doubtless Missing from the Samaritans'
Experience, Thus It was Evident They Had Not Received the
Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:4-8, 12-19. Moreover, verse 18 says that Simon
"saw" something which caused him to offer money for the
power to give the Holy Spirit to others. Neither Philip's
healings, exorcisms, nor miracles caused him to offer
money for these. Evidently he had heard them speak with
new tongues when they received the baptism in the Holy
Spirit.

The 120 Disciples "All" Spoke with New Tongues and They
Accepted This Alone as Evidence That Christ Had Now
Fulfilled His Promise to Baptize Them in the Holy Spirit.

Compare Acts 1:4-5, 8 with Acts 2:4, 2:33. This is their
won interpretation of their experience; namely, that the
baptism in the Holy Spirit results in speaking in a new
tongues.

Twenty Years after Pentecost Speaking in Tongues Was Still
the Sign and Evidence of Receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-6.
Speaking in Tongues Was a Commonly Accepted Phenomenon in
the Churches and Considered a Manifestation of the Holy
Spirit, I Corinthians 12:14; Romans 8:26-27; Ephesians
6:18; Jude 20.

We conclude therefore, that speaking in tongues and this
alone can be considered as Scriptural evidence confirming
the baptism in the Holy Spirit. God would not base the
the assurance of having given us His Holy Spirit on mere
"feelings," or "emotional experience" no matter how
precious or sacred these may be in our experience.
Feelings and emotional experiences are too subjective and
variable from individual to individual.

This is why He chose the sign of speaking in a new
language supernaturally as the evidence of the baptism.
This is because it is (1) outward evidence; (2) uniform
evidence; (3) universal evidence; and (4) supernatural
evidence. Emotional. physical, or spiritual manifestations
may also occur, and sometimes do accompany the sign of
tongues, but the Bible does not tell us to look for these,
they are too unreliable and variable. Look for the sign
God has given:

These signs shall follow then that believe;....they shall
speak with new tongues (Mark 16:17).

Acts 19:1-6
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus:and finding certain DISCIPLES,He said unto them,
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.And he said unto them, Unto what
then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized
in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his
hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

In the above Scripture we are shown that the baptism in
the Holy Spirit is subsquent to salvation! These DISCIPLES
in which Paul encountered had already received salvation,
but they had been "baptized in the Holy Spirit," untill
Paul laid hands on them! Notice what happened when Paul
laid hands on them. THEY SPAKE WITH TONGUES, AND
PROPHESIED.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/23/2002 5:32 PM (GMT -6)

IF THIS IS YOUR OWN WRITING, THEN IGNORE THIS.
BUT IF NOT, WOULD YOU LIKE TO LEAVE A REFERENCE.

(It feels like a posted quote -- for which I'm known.)

Fivefold
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 18

Posted 2/24/2002 6:32 AM (GMT -6)

The Word of God is "The Word of God!" Yes I
wrote this having studied under the author
who originally taught on this subject when I
was taught the doctrine! Many of my posts
will be close to the Theologian I study under! No, I would not post any copyright
material either. So who do you think that
my post resembles?

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