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fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/12/2002 8:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | What do the Gospels indicate is the
ultimate concern of Jesus?
And then, what is the relationship between this, and the operative concern of the voice
and the life of "Christians"?
I am baffled, grieved, exasperated
by the (pharisaic) voices of 'Christians'
who raise to the surface concerns
which Jesus opposed and trumped by his life and death!?!
What did Jesus bleed for?
What did Jesus live for?
What were the grounds (in the eyes of the
world) for his condemnation?
If Christians are not congruent
with Christ on these things, then they
are not Christians.
The mission of Christ-followers is NOT to
profile their distinction from the world;
their mission is to seek and save the lost.
It is not to condemn, but to save.
the fetish to condemn
to religiously differentiate
is just demonic
Jesus shall say
"I never knew you" to that.
Jesus, now and eternally, shall
invest Himself into the Spirit
and Message which endeavors
toward redemption - redemption of
filthy and revulsive sinners like
all of us.
Where
where
where is a voice that knows it's place
and sounds - ultimate -
the Spirit of Christ, to seek and to save
the lost?
God spits out religion
in the wait over this.
There is no faith or creed
or practice or rhetoric
that is "really right"
which does not also bleed
for the unworthy ones
for whom Christ died.
His body is the end of
disembodied propositions
such as "peace, be filled".
(and he is the end of idle
theological speculation!)
He is the bread - to all the world -
and we Christians are called to
be, likewise.
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 2/13/2002 4:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Heh.
Check this out, mein freund.
Not in spite or anger,
malice or exasperation,
but unqualified love of a brother
in the Love of God.
The obvious sincerity, zeal, and love
for the beautiful and wondering Being
that we call Christ is as
apparent as a lovely red-orange
sunset in the sky...
however...
your tone and seething condemnation
of things philosophical and theological
leave much to be desired, good sir.
Different things baffle different people
of the world. What continues to
astound me are the amount of people
who seem to think that
radical theologizing
and devout love and obedience to the
Son of God and following of the Spirit
are antithetical to one another.
It baffles me how people who theologize
diligently can be called "pharisaic"
(a bad pejoration if you ask me)
for dealing with issues that may
serve to keep many things about Christianity
relevant, open, and intelligible to our time.
If baffles me how some people don't seem
to think that it may be atheists,
agnostics, and people of other faiths
who ask the same questions that we do.
Ah, to be baffled. 
To those people, I have
but one thing to say.
The people in this board
who theologize rigorously and endlessly
are people who consider themselves followers
of the Risen Lord and want to love and
serve Him with every fiber of being.
This includes the mind.
I believe that the Spirit of God is
dishonored when the theological enterprise
is turned into a vivisection of God.
I believe that the Spirit of God is
honored when seekers try to wrestle
diligently with questions of the Faith
that may enhance or clarify
the relationships that they have with the Lord to whom they swear
allegience and obedience.
In that, I believe that everyone on
this board is sincerely trying to
do the latter. So, maybe
just maybe...
people who engage in theology,
lay and otherwise,
really do know that Christ is the
bread of our lives...
and they want to feast heavily
in every way they can.
Just a thought.
It has been said that at times,
the fragrant scent of genuine piety
can be overtaken by
the pungent stench of
lingering self-righteousness.
Every one of us would do well to remember this.
In God
Through Christ
By the Spirit
With Each other.
What.
Sir Mephistopheles 2K 
PS: Went to your site. Hope your ministry continues to fluorish!  | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 2/13/2002 5:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi, I've never seen you write in such a poetic style. Fr. Patmos, however, always writes in that beautiful, precise, and poetic style. One would almost have to conclude that you were attempting to mimic and ridicule, but reason tells me that someone who is defending philosophical and theological endeavors would never stoop to such a tactic. Clearly, you must simply have been inspired. Yes, I will give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume good intent. After all, you start out your parody calling him "mein freund", and begin your imitation with:
"Not in spite or anger,
malice or exasperation,
but unqualified love of a brother
in the Love of God."
So I will focus on those words, and try to believe the sincerity of them in spite of the mocking tone.
Mephi said:
quote:
your tone and seething condemnation
of things philosophical and theological
leave much to be desired, good sir.
Semeia: I don't read the same thing at all from what Fr. Patmos said. I hear Fr. Patmos telling us to keep our eyes on the prize. He is not condemning all philosophy and theology, for goodness sakes. He is saying that to the extent that we lose sight of the cross in these discussions (which we SURELY sometimes do) we lose the perspective necessary to make progress and gain insight. He is reminding us that any discussion of any part of the Bible needs to first and foremost be seen through the lens of the cross. It's not something that can simply be assumed.
The brilliance of Fr. Patmos' reflections tells me that he is not advocating turning off one's mind. He is making the same point Bonhoeffer makes in "Ethics".
I don't have the time right now to fully answer this, but as I go through Fr. Patmos post line by line I see nothing to disagree with.
I guess he really pushed a button.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
Edited by - Semeia on 02/13/2002 3:33:57 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/13/2002 5:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi2k
you bring a good, strong, true word.
what was my issue, in heart,
is surely not the honest and vital
theological search and discussion such
as happens here.
my exasperation was over how unaffected
the heart can be by it all.
But the Spirit reveals to me (thanks, Mephi2k) that to rail about that is
hurtful, can be misconstrued; and fuses
me in spirit to those with whom I have
issue. "ouch"! the log in my eye ...
again, thanks for truth delivered with
mercy ...
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fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/13/2002 5:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia
you will find SO FUNNY in a good way
how your recent voice informs me.
yes, you hear my heart that I
respect the venue and voices here;
but I must repent of how my participation
(and stirred heart) from one thread
led to generalizations that were not
expressed in love or wisdom.
It was a purge better spoken to God,
or to someone (in person) who knows
me, and who could help me beyond
the anger of my unbelief.
But .. Semeia ...
look how you got me seeing logs in
my eyes! :)
peace
and thanks for a good heart, Mephik
p.s. and now that I've transacted what
I must in heart; there is no need to give
away the essence of the thread's first post.
It is all about heart, approach, wisdom of
speech.
Was Mephi2k mocking me?
I had a reproof coming by how
mean I've spoken on the MLK thread;
otherwise, (blissful ignorance, wondrous
grace!) I take the unqualified love to the
bank.
thank you for grace
Edited by - fr.patmos on 02/13/2002 10:20:16 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 2/13/2002 5:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, Semeia, this is quite interesting. Geez, louise. You absolutely kill me. I swear. First of all, I had typed out something in my usual style and then I thought it would be COOL and FUN to try to be more poetic like fr. here...BECAUSE I don't do it! So, I deleted it, tried to think "poetical" and started over. Actually, I was pretty impressed with myself about it too. I'm surprised at you, Semeia. Because I HAVE, at times, stooped to mockery before on this board. It's not something I'm proud of, but I've done it. And, in my opinion, it's pretty obvious when I am doing so. Trust me, you would have KNOWN if that was my intention. However, it seems obvious that I've offended YOU and possibly some others. I will ASSUME that this is yet another case of the intent-impact thing. So, for everyone this has offended, I'm terribly sorry. Don't worry. I won't do it again.
Did something push my buttons? Yes. fr.'s post sounded reminiscent other well meaning people I've heard. It's one thing to basically say "keep the main things the main things" It's another thing to move into the area that I believe that fr. did. I saw and agreed with his MAIN intuition. It was just the other stuff. That was MY opinion. I just responded.
So, once again, I apologize directly to fr., if he's offended. I apologize to you, Semeia, because you are obviously offended. And to anyone else, same deal.
And Semeia, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. 'Preciate ya.
Later,
PS: To fr. : No, thank YOU for grace. 
Edited by - mephi2K on 02/13/2002 11:08:43 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 2/13/2002 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi, I didn't say it was bad poetry - I just said it was mocking! That's a completely different accusation... It's actually quite good, which made it all the more irritating to me! And thank you for not pointing out that I was using a kind of sarcasm to protest your use of (from my perspective) sarcasm. Hypocritical of me to be sure.  And I believe you that that was not your intent. Peace.
And Fr. Patmos, thank you. I really should have stayed out of it - because you always know the right thing to say. My buttons were pushed, and I really needed to do some pure inquiry of what Mephi intended, rather than reacting.
It is a psychological truth that we are often bugged by that in others which most resembles our own weakness. So Mephi, I react to your reactivity and intensity for obvious reasons...... ... and I am equally sorry for responding so strongly.
Everything's cool.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/13/2002 3:07 PM (GMT -6) | | The interchanges on this board NEVER CEASE TO AMAZE ME.
Thanks Fr. Patmos for your input. You too Meph and Semeia. I love all of your honest -- to say nothing of frank -- hearts.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/13/2002 6:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg Boyd
I have heard from a distance
thanks to God for your local
ministry as pastor to a church.
I like very much what I see of this in
two ways:
that you honor the open forum you have
created here;
and that you participate
fully guided by grace and truth.
I root for
and will pray for
what you are up to
Go!!!
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/17/2002 6:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Father Patmos, fellow warrior
I definitely appreciate the collegiality and the prayer
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 2/17/2002 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | From my own small viewpoint I'll bring to the discussion this:
in my own place when I started worrying about how other Christians are not living the life, chances are I'm not living the life. When I get too concerned about the sins of the church and how it is from Jesus, it is usually because I don't want to look at my own sins....
...granted, many times the church is in need of rebuke, but so are we all. Many times we all need someone to stand up and tell us how stupid we are acting (my wife has that thankful job in my life). But I am only glad that she does it with love and grace and patience. The church is everyone of us. Perhaps if we stopped talking about it being an identity apart from us and started talking more about how we are part of the entity itself, an entity that has just as many hurting people in it as the world, than perhaps things will change.
Jesus died for the church as well as the world... Harold
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 2/17/2002 7:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
When I get too concerned about the sins of the church and how it is from Jesus, it is usually because I don't want to look at my own sins....
...granted, many times the church is in need of rebuke, but so are we all. Many times we all need someone to stand up and tell us how stupid we are acting
Great point, Writerdad! It's probably better to pray for one another and for the church instead of resting in our concern.
trosie
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 2/18/2002 5:15 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm curious if and when people think a prophetic voice and the condemnation of sins obverved in the church is ever justified?
Thanks,
Miss E
Edited by - empiress on 02/18/2002 10:16:13 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 2/18/2002 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | My concern is not the lamenting of the church's sins, or someone having a prophetic voice about it (of course there are times when such things should happen). My problem is with Christians (or non-christians) who have nothing better to do than sit on their butts and bemourn the fact that churches are so evil, so bad and do nothing about it. We are called to love our brothers regardless of how imperfect they are and to regard others as higher than ourselves. And most people seem to feel they have free reign on such bashing but would rather not take a look in the mirror at their own flaws. That, to me, is hypocrisy. Harold
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 2/18/2002 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi:
quote:
I believe that the Spirit of God is
honored when seekers try to wrestle
diligently with questions of the Faith
that may enhance or clarify
the relationships that they have with the Lord to whom they swear
allegience and obedience
I agree as long as wrestling with the questions don't consume us to the point that we forget about the wisdom and grace found through submission to the Holy Spirit.
Writerdad:
quote:
My problem is with Christians (or non-christians) who have nothing better to do than sit on their butts and bemourn the fact that churches are so evil, so bad and do nothing about it. We are called to love our brothers
We are called to love our brothers AND TO PRAY FOR THEM! Instead of sitting on our butts and bemourning the fault we find in church we are called to PRAY.
Afterall, there's a warfare going on.
trosie
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fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/22/2002 11:42 AM (GMT -6) | | I think that, as long as it is deemed legitimate and important to debate 'a literal vs. metaphorical interpretive approach to the Old Testament';
then it is at least as legitimate and
important for the culture and conversation
of the church to note the imperviousness - the white elephant in the living room -
of such voices as racism which present their ideologies as part and parcel of the faith.
Such a prophetic scrutiny is no human
innovation. It is not the leisurely sport of armchair hypocrisy. And it is not optional. It finds its grounds and mandate in God's own message and Spirit.
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fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 2/22/2002 11:43 AM (GMT -6) | | I think that, as long as it is deemed legitimate and important to debate 'a literal vs. metaphorical interpretive approach to the Old Testament';
then it is at least as legitimate and
important for the culture and conversation
of the church to note the imperviousness - the white elephant in the living room -
of such voices as racism which present their ideologies as part and parcel of the faith.
Such a prophetic scrutiny is no human
innovation. It is not the leisurely sport of armchair hypocrisy. And it is not optional. It finds its grounds and mandate in God's own message and Spirit.
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