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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 2/23/2002 5:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | While talking with a friend the difference between fellowship and membership arose. My friend explained fellowship as being inclusive while membership in a church is more exclusive. An example of this is Christians may fellowship with other believers who do not hold to eternal security but if a person does not believe in eternal security then that person could not hold membership in the church. What are your thoughts on a statement of this nature?
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/23/2002 5:43 AM (GMT -6) | | (I'm aiming at givine a "quip" here; so feel free to blow me off. I'm not trying to get heavy.)
Question: aren't BOTH definitions, the way they were presented to you, MAN-CENTERED instead of God centered. The Church is Christ's Body by the Holy Spirit. That's two out of three persons of the Trinity. Hmmm. Ooops, I forgot: "by the will of the Father." One definitely needs a more God-centered, god-involving definition than what you were furnished with.
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/23/2002 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey, if there's a pot-luck after service, I'm the least you'll find making any difference between fellowship and membership.
Better yet, if the roast beef is medium rare (and let me tell you, it is HARD to find it this way), brother, I'm eternal security, OV, EDF, ABC, XYZ - you name it, I'm it! Medium rare's just too hard to pass up!
For the real issue of it all,
Starkman
(humor, you see!)
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/23/2002 7:38 AM (GMT -6) | | | As for Escatologically scalloped potatoes, I'm pre-ministroni and post-tri-buttered-relations-made-it. Eat up. | | Back to Top | | |
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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 2/23/2002 12:04 PM (GMT -6) | | My initial reaction was similar to yours. I have sent my friend an email asking how the Bible supports any difference between fellowship and membership. I am still awaiting the answer. I have been thinking of the implications regarding the fellowship vs membership. Am I correct in thinking of the fellowship vs membership along the same lines of separate but equal laws that existed in the era of segregation?
Thanks,
KC
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Fivefold
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 18
| Posted 2/23/2002 12:31 PM (GMT -6) | | THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH
Christ, in this hour, through the latter day outpouring of the Holy Spirit, is
desiring to restore the pattern of the church as it is revealed in the New Testament; but this cannot happen until believers have a biblical understanding of what the church is supposed to be. Most people think the church is a building used for religious services, but some believe it is a denomination or a local assembly of believers. Others think of the church as Christendom as a whole--the universal body of Christ throughout the world. Some say the universal invisible church, the so-called mystical body of Christ, is the true church. Members of the Roman Catholic Church say their church is the universal visible church.
The fact that there are over 250 denominations is proof of the confusion which prevails in Christendom regarding the nature, function, and organization of the church.
Some of the discord stems from the fact that the term "church" comes from the German word "kirche," which means "house' or "building." As a result, most people, when they say, "Let us go to church," are thinking of a building located on some street corner, not realizing that they, the Christians, are the church.
When speaking of the church, the New Testament does not use a word which means building of house; instead, "ekklesia" is used, which is a Greek term meaning "an assembly of called out ones." This term occurs 112 times in the New Testament.
The New Testament views the church as an organism--something with life--an assembly of living people. It is not just an organization which meets periodically, nor is it a building or a house. In Matthew 16:13-19, when Jesus asked, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?... Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I will build my church." In other words, "Upon this revelation that I am the Christ, the Son of God, I will establish my assembly." When Jesus used the term "ekklesia," He was not inventing a new concept, because the term "assembly" was used in the Old Testament times, speaking of the whole congregation of Israel assembled together. The Hebrew word for assembly was "quhal." The term "assembly" was not unique to Jesus; but the uniqueness of its use here lies in the fact that he said, "Upon this rock I will build my assembly." He called it His assembly.
The church in the New Testament and in early Christian history would never refer to the church as a building or a meeting place because the church met in the homes of believers (Acts 2:46; 12:12; Colossians 4:15). In Romans 16:3-5 Paul extended greeting to several saints; then he said, "Like wise greet the church that is in their house."
The Nature of the New Testament Church
The nature of the church, as it is set forth in the New Testament is that of a living organism--not of an organization. In I Corinthians 12 the Apostle Paul compared the church to a human body with numerous essential members. There is a vast difference between a organism--something with life--and a dead corporation or organism with its impersonalness, complexity, and lifelessness. An organism, on the other hand, is like the human body with each of its members in vital relationship to the others, all partaking of a common life. Whatever happens to one part of the body affects the entire body. It has unity (I Corinthians 12:12) and diversity (verse 4); it has one source of life (verse 13); it is interdependent (verses 21-27); and it is visible (verse 27).
Views regarding the Nature of the Church
In regard to the nature of the church, there are basically three views: the Roman Catholic view, the Protestant view, and the view of all other churches. The Roman Catholics formulated the universal visible church theory, which alleges that the Kingdom of God is universal, and all who are saved are in the Kingdom of God. They equate the church with the Kingdom of God and say there is no salvation outside of the true church, which to them is the visible Roman Catholic Church.
In 1520 Martin Luther was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church because of his stand on justification by faith. Since he was no longer a member of the visible church, he invented the theory of the universal invisible church. He said, "Jesus taught us the Kingdom of God is within you; that means it is invisible. The Kingdom of God is also universal; therefore, the true church is universal and invisible. He taught that alongside the local visible churches was also a universal invisible mystical body of Christ to which all Christians belong. Most Protestants today agree with that teaching, although there is not one word in the Bible to support their view. Because of this conception of the church as a mystical, invisible body, many have a shallow attitude toward the local assembly and their responsibility to it.
Luther and his followers in the Protestant Reformation attempted to explain this view by saying that a believer may or may not be a member of a local visible church; but that every believer, whether in the past, present, or future ages of Christianity, whether living or dead, does belong to the universal invisible church or the mystical body of Christ. To support this supposition, they cite I Corinthians 12:27, where the term "body of Christ" is used. However, their use of this text is invalid because it is a metaphor showing relationship within the church, not the nature of the church.
Another text they use is Hebrews 12:23, where Paul said, "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect." They contend that this verse says all the saints living or dead are registered in heaven; thus, they belong to an invisible universal church.
Obviously, Paul was not speaking of the church of his day, but of all the saints who have their names registered in heaven. Therefore, the use of "assembly" and "church" in this passage speaks of the completed church as a thing in prospect, and not of the church then in actual existence. He was saying, in effect, that one day there will be a general assembly composed of Old and New Testament saints, all whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, and with myriad's of angels.
All born again believers are citizens of the kingdom; but by no means have all been, nor are they now, members of true New Testament churches. The Kingdom of God in its present expression is universal, spiritual, and invisible; and it is broader in concept that the church, which is always local and visible, consisting of the various assemblies in specific locations. It is significant that Christ's last message to His body in the Book of Revelation was not to a vague universal mystical church, but to certain specific local churches of Asia. In I Corinthians 1:2 Paul wrote, "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth," and in Galatians 1:2, "Unto the churches of Galatia." In I Corinthians 12:12-13,27 Paul used a metaphor to teach about the many-membered body of Christ which he applied to the local church in Corinth. Paul made no suggestion of an invisible mystical universal body or universal church somewhere. In I Corinthians 1:2 Paul addressed himself to the church at Corinth; then in chapter 12, verse 27 he said, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." Thus, Paul forever disproved the false invisible mystical body theory of the reformers, who would have believers belonging to two churches.
Advocates of the universal invisible mystical church theory frequently cite the "one body" concept of Paul. In I Corinthians 12:13 Paul said that all Christians are baptized by one Spirit into one body, obviously speaking of regeneration. In I Corinthians 12:12-31 Paul used the body as a metaphor to show the spiritual relationship between Christ and His church. Again, in Ephesians 2:16 and 4:4 he showed that there is one body. Paul had reference to the church being one--one body. He was not teaching the universal invisible mystical theory, but was illustrating that the church is made up of all races, all kinds of people, and all social classes of people. Jesus said in John 10 that there is one Shepherd and one fold; that is, that one day both Jews and Gentiles will belong to the same body. Whenever a literal, geographical church is referred to, it is always spoken of as a local, visible assembly.
A metaphor is a figure of speech containing an implied comparison, such as the phrase, " a mighty fortress is our God." God is not an actual fortress, but the use of this metaphor shows the nature of His power to deliver and protect those who trust Him (psalm 91:2). In I Corinthians 12 Paul used the terms "hand," "feet," "eyes," and "ears" to portray the many parts of the body. The metaphor shows a spiritual relationship. Christ is the head; the church is the body. To insist that the body of Christ means a literal invisible mystical body somewhere is to absolutize what the Holy Spirit intended as a metaphor. Care must be exercised when interpreting the Bible not to literalize or absolutize the many metaphors found in the Word of God; or God's eyes, for example, would be running to and fro throughout the earth (II Chronicles 16:9).
The Revelation of the Church
Few people realize that the church was a mystery until it was revealed in the New Testament (Ephesians 3:5-6; Romans 16:25-26; Colossians 1:25-27). Although the Old Testament saints were given occasional glimpses of a future age in which even the Gentiles would worship their God, it was a mystery to them how this would be fulfilled. No wonder--for the promises were made only to Israel (Romans 9:4)! The mystery was not that God would have an assembly; he had the assembly of Israel in the Old Testament. But the truth had not been clearly revealed that He would make one body out of every tribe and nation, and He would call it His assembly.
The mystery of the church was first revealed by prophecy in the transitional period between the Old and New Testaments, according to historians. Matthew 16:18-19 is also a prophetic reference to the church. The church in action is recorded in the entire Book of Acts, and its doctrines are disclosed throughout the Epistles.
The Beginning of the Church
There is little agreement among Bible scholars as to when the church actually began. There are four basic views: 1) Some say it began with the call of the twelve apostles who were sent forth to preach and to baptize. 2) Others believe it began at the time of Peter's confession in Matthew 16. 3) Another group believes the church had its beginning at the time of the Last Supper when they say the new covenant was instituted; however, the new covenant was not effective until Jesus went to the Cross. 4) The Scriptural view is that the church began on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2).
There are several reasons the church did not begin before Pentecost. There was no death, no shedding of blood, no sacrifice made, and no resurrection before Calvary. In other words, there was no gospel to preach. When Jesus sent forth the disciples in Matthew 10, He told them to proclaim the Kingdom of Heaven so that the Jews would have a foretaste of what was going to take place in the subsequent dispensation of God's kingdom. They preached a partial gospel which pointed to the cross. This was intended to get the Jews ready to receive the Messiah; but their rejection of Him resulted in His death and resurrection, and brought about the birth of the full gospel. Paul clearly showed in I Corinthians 15 that the resurrection is the gospel, and that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22).
The Purpose of the Church
There are four essential purposes for the church. 1) The church was established for ministry. Jesus commissioned the disciples to make citizens for the kingdom through the proclamation of the gospel (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-18). 2) The church is for the manifestation of the glory of Christ (John 17:10, 22-23; I Peter 2:9; John 9:5 with Philippians 2:15; Matthew 5:14-16). 3) The church is for demonstration. It is to exhibit to the universe the wisdom and grace of God in saving sinners (Ephesians 3:8-11; 2:6-7). 4) The church exists for fellowship with other Christians at the present time (Acts 2:42; I John 1:3-7), and with Jesus at the Second Advent and throughout eternity (John 14:1-3; 17:24).
Views of the Organization of the Church
There are three principle views of the organization of the church: The ecclesiastical theory of the Roman Catholics and most Protestants, the mystical theory of the reformers, and the biblical view. Those who support the ecclesiastical institution which is led by a priesthood under the headship of a Pope, whom they deem to be Christ's Vicar on earth. Its organization was laid down, they say, by the apostles and their successors. Protestants, of course, do not follow the Roman Catholic Pope, but their hierarchy is conformed to some extent to that of Rome. There are two extremes among Protestants. The Anglican view is essentially that of the Roman Catholics; however, instead of the Pope, they substitute the Archbishop as head of the church. The reformers and their successors stated that there was no definite pattern of organization laid down by Christ and the apostles, and that each church in every age should be left free to adopt whatever organization is best suited to its situation. For example, some churches would be Episcopal in form with bishops and archbishops, and other churches would have democratic or congregational forms of government ruled by boards and trustees.
Those who hold to the mystical theory in its extreme form say that the church is not a visible, formal organization or institution, but that the body of Christ is a universal invisible mystical body in which all believers are bound together in spiritual union. They say Christ never intended for His body to be organized into a formal institution, meeting every Sunday, observing ordinances, and hearing sermons. Followers of this extreme view are convinced that there is no formal organization, no place established to worship the Lord, no ordinances or sermons; but that the church is simply those who believe in Christ and are bound together in a mystical union in some invisible, universal body concept. As previously discussed, this belief is Unscriptural.
The biblical view regarding the nature of the organization of the church is set forth clearly in the Book of Acts and in the New Testament Epistles, and is well expressed by the following definition: A New Testament church is a local, visible, autonomous body with Christ as its head, consisting of born again, properly baptized believers, gathered together by the Holy Spirit for the purpose of spiritual worship, observing of the ordinances, propagation of a full gospel, and the teaching of the Word of God, all in accordance with biblical revelation alone.
Reasons for the Rapid Spread of the Church
There were several reasons for the rapid spread of the local church in the first three centuries. 1) The church was empowered and led by the Holy Spirit, as seen in the Book of Acts. 2) The early church conceived of itself as an organism, a body in which every member functioned. They believed it was their responsibility and privilege to witness to the gospel. 3) Another reason was the zeal of the Christians in their witness for Christ. Judaism and other religions make very little attempt to convert others to their beliefs, but Christianity is different in that true born again Christians are eager to win others to the truth of salvation in Jesus Christ. 4) The great unity of the faith which the Christians experienced also contributed to the rapid spread of the church. 5) The transformation in the lives of the Christians was an effective witness of the world.
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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 2/24/2002 2:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The biblical view regarding the nature of the organization of the church is set forth clearly in the Book of Acts and in the New Testament Epistles, and is well expressed by the following definition: A New Testament church is a local, visible, autonomous body with Christ as its head, consisting of born again, properly baptized believers, gathered together by the Holy Spirit for the purpose of spiritual worship, observing of the ordinances, propagation of a full gospel, and the teaching of the Word of God, all in accordance with biblical revelation alone.
Fivefold,
Your response was detailed. I can tell that you have done your homework on this subject. Above is the paragraph from your post. It seems as if you fall into the camp of "fellowship is different from membership". If I am wrong please correct me. What are the biblical mandates for making this distinction? Are these arbitary issues? In your post it seems as if your making these distinctions.
Thanks,
KC
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Fivefold
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 18
| Posted 2/24/2002 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | I embrace from the Word of God that The
Local Body of Christ, is a group of Local Christians, and when they are assembled
together, they constitute an Assembly, "Of Called Out Ones!"
Acts 19:39
"But if you have any other inquiry to make, it shall be determined in the lawful assembly. The, "ekklesia," in the Greek.
In the Greek Language!
1577 ekklesia (ek-klay-see'-ah);
from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):
KJV-- assembly, church.
1577 ekklesia-
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
b) the assembly of the Israelites
c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
d) in a Christian sense:
1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, to observe their own religious rites, to hold their own religious meetings, and to manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
In short, we do not go to Church, we are the
Church!, which consists as an assembly.
The Denominational Churches like to add new
"members," to their Church! This is in grave
error, and leads one to think that if they
are, "a member," of a Church, attend it
regularly, pay their tithes, that they are
saved!
This misleads persons into being, religious,
when some have not experienced the "New Birth," and do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!
Thus, whether they know it or not,
are trying to attain Salvation by works! The
main concern is that Christians should not
equate the building, house or where they meet
as, "The Church," and realize that they are, "individual members," of The Local Body of
Christ, and when assembled together, they
are, "The Church of Christ."
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beachgirl
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 2/25/2002 3:48 AM (GMT -6) | | i will admit it, i am not a big fan of church membership. i grew up in a plymouth brethern assembly and they do not have membership. i don't see in scripture where the early church was instructed to keep a roll, so to speak. i'm just not comfortable with the idea...maybe it's just my p.b. roots showing!
"Relying on God has to begin all over again every day as if nothing had yet been done..." C.S. Lewis
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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 3/1/2002 10:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Fivefold,
I am with you on the idea of just having membership in church a believer. My take on your view is that "each believer is part of the church and when believers assemble each individual piece brings fits into the whole church". Let me know if I am off base on reading your thought patterns.
kc
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