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Bob Hill
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/5/2002 11:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Doc presents a superb Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy that exhibits God's great love for the whole world.
Each chapter is based on a biblical logic that becomes overwhelmingly irrefutable as you reach the end of chapter 6.
On page 190 I would ask, though, if Doc makes any distinction between the eternal participation in the kingdom of God on earth that Christ promised to Israel in the gospels, and the heavenly hope of the mystery which God promised through Paul to the body of Christ, in the heavenlies?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 3/5/2002 11:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Bob,
I'll be interested in Doc's answer too.
But for me, there is neither Jew nor Greek...
If for you there is...... then please address Rb over on the "Systems" thread. He begins from some sort of dispensationalism and arives at a racist view that forbids interracial marriage. I've made the "neither Jew nor Greek" arguement with him too, and he's not listenting.
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/5/2002 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | POW,
I believe there is no Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ. We are one new man in Christ. That's what Ephesians 2 and 3 is all about.
What I'm referring to is the kingdom promised to redeemed Israel vs. the kingdom the body of Christ is in. I believe our position is a heavenly one and redeemed Israel is an earthly (New earth) one.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 3/5/2002 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob, could you clarify what part of page 190 you are asking for clarification on? I just reread it and cannot see how your question stems from that portion of the book.
Why drive a wedge between the "kingdom of God" and the "heavenly hope" in the first place? What motivates such a distinction? Paul makes it plenty clear that what he considers to be his hope is going to happen here on earth. Romans 8 (and 1 Cor. 15 etc.) testifies to Paul's congruity with Christ's "Kingdom of God" language. If in Christ God is reconciling the world to Godself, then we should expect some "already/not yet" language, unless we imagine the event to be instantaneous.
My guess is that doc will say that those two promises are (at least essentially) one and the same, they are the "already/not yet" dynamic so often talked about in early theological classes. The Good News (singular message/messenger) is that Christ has come to redeem ALL. This is both for the "here and now" in establishing the Bride of Christ, and in the "next life" with regard to Christ's drawing all things unto himself from on high, the consumation of the reconciliation.
The message is the messenger and the help cannot be had without the helper. It is the role of Christ to reconcile that which is seperated (God and us). Unless we are now able to divide Christ (and this is NOT what it means to "rightly divide the word"!) into various parts, the gospel will remain intact on the basis of the unity of Christ himself. There are not two gospels unless there are two gods to be reconciled with. Paul's Gospel is none other than "Christ and him crucified". That is a strict identity of Paul's Gospel with Christ, who strictly speaking IS the Gospel. The one and only Gospel.
For those wondering why I am being so thorough about this unity of the Gospel, please understand that there is a history of dealing with hyper-dispensationalism here on the board which seeks to divide things up enough times to make each piece swallowable in itself. I for one find that form of theologizing very dangerous.
peace.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/5/2002 1:08 PM (GMT -6) | | MOT,
It is somewhat difficult to discuss the word of God with someone who casts aspersion: “there is a history of dealing with hyper-dispensationalism here on the board which seeks to divide things up enough times to make each piece swallowable in itself. I for one find that form of theologizing very dangerous.” Oh well.
We have a wonderful heavenly hope spelled out for us in Ephesians and 2 Timothy. Eph 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places (toi" ejpouranioi") in Christ.” Eph 2:4-7 “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places (toi`" ejpouranivoi") in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” 2 Ti 4:18 “And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom (thn basileian autou thn epouranion). To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!”
Since 1 Co 12:13 “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” shows us how we get into the body of Christ, and Gal 3:26-29 and Rom 6:3-8 show us the wonderful benefits we have in Him, we can see that Paul was talking about the unified body of Christ, not two. Gal 3:26-29 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Rom 6:3-8 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him.”
I realize that some believe we are spiritual Israel, Gal 4:21-31. “Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic.”
But here, we see Paul is using an allegory. Sarah represent the covenant of promise. Under that covenant, Abram was justified by faith. That’s the same blessing the body of Christ experiences. Abram is our father in that he was saved by faith alone. Sarah is our mother only symbolically as referring to this covenant. “For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, you who do not bear! Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband.” 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.”
In Christ our Head,
Bob Hill
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Modes of Thought
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Total Posts : 817
| Posted 3/5/2002 1:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob, thanks for pressing on despite my comments which perhaps frustrated you. Sorry, that's not the best way to start a conversation. I will do better.
Please do respond to my question though. I asked:
"Bob, could you clarify what part of page 190 you are asking for clarification on?"
I was under the impression that the question was related to Dr. Boyd's book SPE.
I read through the various verses you listed, if there is a particular point you are trying to make, please do me the favor of drawing it out more explicitly. Frankly, I didn't get it.
Was it related to my second question:
Why drive a wedge between the "kingdom of God" and the "heavenly hope" in the first place? What motivates such a distinction?
If so how? If not, please do respond to this second question as well.
Thanks,
Modes
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/5/2002 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob, Please ignore this. i'll return to it, I hope, and put in m6y two cents. it is a verse you used.
quote:
Eph 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places (toi" ejpouranioi") in Christ.”
PoW
Bob, I posted below.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 03/06/2002 11:27:28 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 3/5/2002 5:08 PM (GMT -6) | | HI Bob and co.
For what its worth, I've never made any hard and fast distinction between the future hope of the kingdom in the Old Testament and the future hope in the New Testament. Indeed, I'm not sure I even understand your distinction. I think that the future hope in both Testaments is for humans to dwell on the earth carrying out the commission originally given us in Genesis 1.
Do you see it differently Bob?
Greg
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/6/2002 5:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear MOT,
I was referring to the statement in the 12th line from the bottom, “the kingdom of God.” I was not being critical. I was just asking for information. I believe God has an overall kingdom. Within that overall kingdom, I believe there will be an earthly kingdom that was promised to David and a place in the heavenlies for the Body of Christ. Greg has already answered that question to my satisfaction.
Dear Greg,
I’m getting to be an old man (69), and I want to tell you how impressed I am with your work. I have held the open view for 43 years, so I know how it feels to be the Lone Ranger when it comes to the Open View of the Future. I appreciate your scholarship and the extremely difficult times you have gone through because of the truth of a God who is free.
I do see it differently, but I don't intend to be divisive in what I see.
The reason I asked my question came from my study of the Epistle to the Ephesians, which is packed with prayer. In the 15th verse of the 1st chapter, Paul prays for the Ephesians. He prayed for spiritual enlightenment to know three things.
He prayed this in Eph 1:15-17 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge [epignwsei] of Him.
We see how this takes place in verse 18, “the eyes of your understanding being enlightened”. Then, we see what the fruit of this understanding would be. “What is the hope of His calling.”
That hope is shown to be Christ’s return for us in Tit 2:11-14 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works.
To me, the second hope is so awesomely grand that I don’t know how to describe it. I believe it is the glorious wealth of His inheritance in the holiest of all: 18 “what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints [holies].” I asked myself, “What is that glorious wealth? What is the holiest of all?” I believe it’s the holy of holies.
The third thing is in v. 19 “The exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe.” Paul ran out of words just as we do, so he used the word, hyperbole, which, as you know, sounds the same in Greek. This is defined, “to throw over or beyond any thing, to transcend, surpass, exceed” anything.
His power toward us is beyond anything we can think. Just try to think of that! He ends this prayer in the 23rd verse with this glorious statement of our position in Christ. “[The church] is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all [the all things in every way].”
The all things, in Eph 1:10, which many think is a strong Calvinistic verse, I think, from the context and the 2nd chapter, were all Jews and Gentiles who got saved after the body of Christ began. They, we, were all baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.
The results of that great peace making venture of Eph 2:11-17 are wonderful. Here are the ramifications of our peace between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ. We have access to the Father, Eph 2:18.
Where is the Father? If there is an actual place, it would be the holy of holies. Not only do we have access into this most holy of all places, but according to Eph 2:19, I think we are fellow citizens of the holies, not of the saints (twn hagiwn).
Here is what I think this means. You, of all people know that Lucifer was the cherub which covered God. Eze 28:14-16 “You [were] the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. 16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned. Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, o covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.”
He wanted that exalted place where we are going to be, right there, in the holies. We are to be intimate with God. In fact, we are members of God’s household, Eph 2:19.
Just think what that means. And one more awesome thing, we are part of a building process. God is building it. Eph 2:20 “having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone”.
I believe we are being joined together to form the holy of holies, the temple of God. Eph 2:21,22a: “in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together”.
This means we will be the dwelling place of God. Eph 2:22b for a dwelling place of God in [or by] the Spirit.
I think this word, dwelling place, katoikaytayrion, refers to the place in the naos, the holy of holies. Except, this will be in heaven, forever.
I think this is similar to what is found in 2 Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation [oikaytayrion] which is from [ek is most often translated of or out of] heaven.
It’s interesting to notice that Jude 6 says, “the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode [oikaytayrion], He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day”.
With this astounding information, Paul begins to burst forth again in prayer in Ephesian 3:1, but is diverted by some more needed explanations. But in 3:14, he continues his prayer. This time Paul prays for our practical needs based on our blessings.
He prays that we will be strengthened in the inner man. Eph 3:16 “that He would give you, according to His glorious wealth, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man that Christ will dwell in our hearts by faith.
This will result in love. Eph 3:17b-19 that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be [fully] able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height-- 19 to know the love of Christ which passes [transcends, surpasses, and exceeds any] knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
I might add, that’s my desire. But my failures assault me in my examination before God. The last I checked, I really love me.
But I do know this. My desire is to allow the Holy Spirit to produce His love in me, and I’m getting the victory as I grow in my love for God.
God bless you Greg,
Bob Hill
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 3/6/2002 6:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob, your post was to Greg. But I enjoyed it too. Very much.
You mentioned: "I believe it’s the holy of holies."
Let me just say that liturgy and architecture go together. Christian liturgy was born from within the Jewish Temple and Jewish Synagogue worship. And the distinctions in spaces works with the progressions in worship. And that worship is grounded in the eschaton.
Both you AND Modes (with his now/not yet) are correct.
For the most part you were just describing Orthodox spirituality. In fact the whole NT reads very clearly from that perspective. The Gospel of John is liturgical. The end of Mark reads and makes good sense that way to--eucharistically.
Thanks.
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Semeia
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| Posted 3/6/2002 7:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob,
That was a beautiful post. Thank you.
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/9/2002 5:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks POW and Semeia,
God is sure wonderful.
Bob
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 3/10/2002 2:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob: But I do know this. My desire is to allow the Holy Spirit to produce His love in me, and I’m getting the victory as I grow in my love for God.
Greg: Our hearts are the same, and that, to my mind, renders the slight variations in how to "rightly divide the Word" curious, interesting, fun, but very very secondary. Thanks for the encouragement Bob.
Okay okay okay. This thread is getting to mushy. Lets start fighting again. 
Doc
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/10/2002 7:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg,
I preached a sermon, "God Is Love", today. It was based on Satan & the Problem of Evil.
Of course, my church has been an Open View church for 29 1/2 years, but we keep getting new people.
Thanks again for that book.
In Christ,
Bob
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 4/1/2002 8:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg,
I'm unabashably thankful for you and the books you have written on the open view. Satan and the Problem of Evil has affected my personal life in a powerful way. It has, as close as I can judge it, been the cause of my prayer life increasing triple fold in intensity and amount spent.
Thanks for your scholarly, thorough, and, yes, philosophically sound presentation. May God continue to bless you as you keep writing.
In Christ,
Bob
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 4/3/2002 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Telling someone they helped increase your prayer life is about the greatest compliment you could give someone. I am quite speechless.
humbled
Doc
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 4/27/2002 9:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg,
I've been too busy to be on your web-site. Things have slowed up a little.
I'm feeling funny throwing accolades, but I finished S & T P O E, and I must say, it was the best philosophical presentation I've seen on the open view. It was very thorough and backed up by biblical evidence in all the places that needed it.
I was happy to see you not go to a typical annihilationist position such as was rampant in the early part of the 20th century. I didn't buy your position, but I thought it was interesting. Though you dealt with a lot of Scripture, this is the only place in the book that I thought lacked sufficient support from God's word.
Thanks again for a great book.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 4/28/2002 5:47 PM (GMT -6) | | I appreciate the feedback Bob. Thanks.
Doc
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