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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 1/12/2002 3:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | Could someone provide me with some insight regarding how the OV can be harmonized with inerrancy?
Thanks
kc
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anewbeginning
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 1/12/2002 12:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi kcy:
You might want to check out the thread "Welcome back ETS sojourners" in the "Tearing Down Walls" forum. It was dated Nov 18/01.
God bless
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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 1/16/2002 2:34 PM (GMT -6) | | anewbeginning,
Thanks for the post. I checked out "Welcome back ETS sojourners" thread. I am not sure that I fully understand the point that Greg was trying to make. The problem is with me. Thick Head! Let me ask the post another way. I was taught that if the Bible was not 100% accurate in History (things that can be prove) then how can we trust the Bible to be accurate in spiritual matters? Hopefully someone can provide some additional insight.
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/5/2002 12:09 PM (GMT -6) | | kcy1998,
Because God tells us in His word that He does repent, it shows the inerrancy of the word of God. Those who do not believe in the open view of the future have serious problems with unfulfilled prophecy that cannot be fulfilled.
The prophecies about Nebuchanezzer conquering Tyre, and not doing it, then being promised Egypt for his labor, but never setting foot in Egypt are examples of what I mean.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
biblicalanswers.com
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/6/2002 1:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Bob,
With regard to your post right above mine, would you give more detail (Sripture and comments) about king Neb not taking Tyre and then being promised Egypt?
Thanks much,
Starkman
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/7/2002 6:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Starkman,
Here is my analysis of Ezekiel 26-30
The following prophecy and promise was specific. It named Nebuchadnezzar. But it was not fulfilled. Neither was the prophecy about Egypt being given to him fulfilled.
Ezekiel, chapters 26-30 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, because Tyre has said against Jerusalem, ‘Aha! She is broken who was the gateway of the peoples; now she is turned over to me; I shall be filled; she is laid waste.’ 3 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. 4 ‘And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; I will also [Here’s the prophecy against Tyre.] scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. 5 ‘It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken,’ says the Lord GOD; ‘it shall become plunder for the nations. 6 ‘Also her daughter villages which are in the fields shall be slain by the sword. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.’
Now, here is the greatest problem. Nebuchadnezzar, in the 6th century BC, is named specifically as the one who would destroy Tyre. But He was not able to do it. Alexander did destroy it about 332 BC. Further, Tyre was visited by Paul, and it is populated today. Therefore God’s prophecy was not fulfilled.
7 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 ‘He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9 ‘He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 ‘Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 ‘With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 ‘They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. [This would be the island of Tyre. Tyre was not destroyed until Alexander the Great conquered it many years later in 332 BC. 13 ‘I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. 14 ‘I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken,’ says the Lord GOD. 15 “Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre: ‘Will the coastlands not shake at the sound of your fall, when the wounded cry, when slaughter is made in the midst of you? 16 ‘Then all the princes of the sea will come down from their thrones, lay aside their robes, and take off their embroidered garments; they will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit on the ground, tremble every moment, and be astonished at you. 17 ‘And they will take up a lamentation for you, and say to you: “How you have perished, O one inhabited by seafaring men, O renowned city, Who was strong at sea, She and her inhabitants, Who caused their terror to be on all her inhabitants! 18 Now the coastlands tremble on the day of your fall; Yes, the coastlands by the sea are troubled at your departure.” ‘ 19 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘When I make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring the deep upon you, and great waters cover you, 20 ‘then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 21 ‘I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again,’ says the Lord GOD.” 27:1 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 2 “Now, son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyre, 3 “and say to Tyre, ‘You who are situated at the entrance of the sea, merchant of the peoples on many coastlands, thus says the Lord GOD: “O Tyre, you have said, ‘I am perfect in beauty.’ 4 Your borders are in the midst of the seas. Your builders have perfected your beauty
. . . 27 “Your riches, wares, and merchandise, Your mariners and pilots, Your caulkers and merchandisers, All your men of war who are in you, And the entire company which is in your midst, Will fall into the midst of the seas on the day of your ruin. 28 The common-land will shake at the sound of the cry of your pilots. 29 “All who handle the oar, The mariners, All the pilots of the sea Will come down from their ships and stand on the shore . . . 32 In their wailing for you They will take up a lamentation, And lament for you: ‘What city is like Tyre, Destroyed in the midst of the sea? . . . 34 But you are broken by the seas in the depths of the waters; Your merchandise and the entire company will fall in your midst 29:1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, on the twelfth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt. 3 “Speak, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against you, O Pharaoh king of Egypt, O great monster who lies in the midst of his rivers, Who has said, ‘My River is my own; I have made it for myself.’ 4 But I will put hooks in your jaws, And cause the fish of your rivers to stick to your scales; I will bring you up out of the midst of your rivers, And all the fish in your rivers will stick to your scales. 5 I will leave you in the wilderness, You and all the fish of your rivers; You shall fall on the open field; You shall not be picked up or gathered. I have given you as food To the beasts of the field And to the birds of the heavens. 6 “Then all the inhabitants of Egypt Shall know that I am the LORD, Because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel. 7 When they took hold of you with the hand, You broke and tore all their shoulders; When they leaned on you, You broke and made all their backs quiver.” 8 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will bring a sword upon you and cut off from you man and beast. 9 “And the land of Egypt shall become desolate and waste; then they will know that I am the LORD, because he said, ‘The River is mine, and I have made it.’ 10 “Indeed, therefore, I am against you and against your rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Ethiopia. 11 “Neither foot of man shall pass through it nor foot of beast pass through it, and it shall be uninhabited forty years. 12 “I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate; and among the cities that are laid waste, her cities shall be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries.” 13 ‘Yet, thus says the Lord GOD: “At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered. 14 “I will bring back the captives of Egypt and cause them to return to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin, and there they shall be a lowly kingdom. 15 “It shall be the lowliest of kingdoms; it shall never again exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish them so that they will not rule over the nations anymore. 16 “No longer shall it be the confidence of the house of Israel, but will remind them of their iniquity when they turned to follow them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.” ‘ “ 17 And it came to pass in the
Note how many years later this following statement was made to Ezekiel after Tyre was not destroyed.
twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it.
God now says to Ezekiel that He will reward Nebuchadnezzar for his labor.
19 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army. 20 ‘I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor, because they worked for Me,’ says the Lord GOD.
But this did not happen either.
21 ‘In that day I will cause the horn of the house of Israel to spring forth, and I will open your mouth to speak in their midst. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.’ “ 30:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Wail, ‘Woe to the day!’ 3 For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles. 4 The sword shall come upon Egypt, And great anguish shall be in Ethiopia, When the slain fall in Egypt, And they take away her wealth, And her foundations are broken down. 5 “Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, all the mingled people, Chub, and the men of the lands who are allied, shall fall with them by the sword.” 6 ‘Thus says the LORD: “Those who uphold Egypt shall fall, And the pride of her power shall come down. From Migdol to Syene Those within her shall fall by the sword,” Says the Lord GOD. 7 “They shall be desolate in the midst of the desolate countries, And her cities shall be in the midst of the cities that are laid waste. 8 Then they will know that I am the LORD, When I have set a fire in Egypt And all her helpers are destroyed. 9 On that day messengers shall go forth from Me in ships To make the careless Ethiopians afraid, And great anguish shall come upon them, As on the day of Egypt; For indeed it is coming!” 10 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will also make a multitude of Egypt to cease By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. 11 He and his people with him, the most terrible of the nations, Shall be brought to destroy the land; They shall draw their swords against Egypt, And fill the land with the slain. 12 I will make the rivers dry, And sell the land into the hand of the wicked; I will make the land waste, and all that is in it, By the hand of aliens. I, the LORD, have spoken.”
This did not happen either.
. . . 20 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first month, on the seventh day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 21 “Son of man, I have broken the arm of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and see, it has not been bandaged for healing, nor a splint put on to bind it, to make it strong enough to hold a sword. 22 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I am against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and will break his arms, both the strong one and the one that was broken; and I will make the sword fall out of his hand. 23 ‘I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them throughout the countries. 24 ‘I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon and put My sword in his hand; but I will break Pharaoh’s arms, and he will groan before him with the groanings of a mortally wounded man. 25 ‘Thus I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, but the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; they shall know that I am the LORD, when I put My sword into the hand of the king of Babylon and he stretches it out against the land of Egypt. 26 ‘I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.’”
The reason this prophecy did not happen is unknown. It doesn’t destroy my faith in God almighty, but for those who believe our God is a God who is described as knowing the future exhaustibly, it is a big problem.
In Christ,
Bob
Edited by - Bob Hill on 03/07/2002 11:41:23 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/7/2002 11:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Presently, I'm reading "The Four-Dimensional Jesus" by John Timmer (Christian Reformed Publising/Press...), It about how the themes in the Gospels vary from one book to the others, and touches especailly on how the authorship, audience, context and reason for writing, etc, etc, chape those.
someone posted: "I was taught that if the Bible was not 100% accurate in History (things that can be prove) then how can we trust the Bible to be accurate in spiritual matters? Hopefully someone can provide some additional insight."
Well, if you are looking for monkey wrenches, the accounts in the Gospels DIFFER on many points. Many, ancient and recent, say that is the best arguement that it is not cooked up! But the differences between the first three Gospels and the Gospel of John with respect to everything surrounding the death and resurrection REALLY stand out! The days are different for the last supper even. But there are reasons. I has to do with the point being made. A jounalism major, or journalism professor, or modern historian, etc., would hate it. But they aren't us!!!!!
What I think that we should really not trust, and learn to call into question is the modernist philosophy that passes around the contagion that says: "that if the Bible was not 100% accurate in History (things that can be prove) then how can we trust the Bible to be accurate in spiritual matters? "
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/8/2002 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | | As almost a precedent, Jonah's prophecy against Jonah is a clear indication that God does change His mind in regard to prophecy when it is for the good of the people; when people repent, God repents. However, this prophecy regarding Nebucadnezzar and Egypt is up for grabs for me until I can research it out.
For the uncertainty of it all, eh,
Starkman
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/10/2002 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Starkman,
Yes, I think Jonah is the best example of what most likely happened at Tyre and Egypt in regards to Nebuchadnezzar.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 03/11/2002 12:06:18 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/11/2002 1:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman:
quote:
As almost a precedent, Jonah's prophecy against Jonah is a clear indication that God does change His mind in regard to prophecy when it is for the good of the people; when people repent, God repents. However, this prophecy regarding Nebucadnezzar and Egypt is up for grabs for me until I can research it out.
For the uncertainty of it all, eh, Starkman
But is any of that hard for you to understand, based on your walk with God? Doesn't it all sqare perfectly from what you have known in sinning and confessing? In The Lord using things to correct you, while you having freedom to follow the Spirit or not? Is any part of that so TOTALY new?
Sure, the OT has situations beyond our experience. I'm never had brimstone rained down on me. But I recognize speciifics situated within a generality. Nineveh's being spared is situated within the larger framework of God's mercy. Often judgement is a mercy.
And if you can relate to this all from your own non-cyber experiences with God, then why torture your gray-matter?
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/11/2002 6:57 PM (GMT -6) | | But what about the Nebuchadnezzar prophecies above?
Bob
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