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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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Orpheus42
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 4/8/2002 12:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | My apologies if this has been discussed here before- A friend and I run an apologetics discussion board and he quoted from Letters From a Skeptic. I'd be interested in seeing how people here answer the response he got- I have a few ideas of my own, but I could really use some input to sharpen my tools. If anyone wants to take a crack at it, please do :) I'd be especially interested in hearing Doc's response, but obviously he's under no obligation to defend his book ;)
The quote:
quote:
Greg Boyd Letters From A Skeptic, p 19-20
My first and primary response is that I don't think God can be held responsible for what the Catholic Church -- or any church, or any religion whatsoever -- has done or shall do. From my perspective, the God whom the Bible talks about, and whom Jesus Christ incarnates, is a God of love, and this entails that he is a God of freedom. We were created with the ability to choose love, and thus with the potential to choose its opposite--evil.
The fact that is was the "Christian Church" which chose to do the evils you write about, and to do them using God's name, in my mind only serves to show that all that goes under the name of "Christian" is not necessarily Christian, Christianity isn't a religion or an institution of any sort: it's a relationship. Within the religion of Christianity, there are, and have always been, genuine Christians--people who have a saving and transforming relationship with Jesus Christ. And this fact accounts for the tremendous good Christianity has brought to the world (in spite of evils). But the "religion" of Christianity, the "institution" of the church, is not itself Christian. Only people, not institutions, can be Christian.
The response:
Well Greg's consistent in his Kung Fu, I'll give him that. Let me paraphrase:
"I don't think Hitler can be held responsible for what the Commandant of Dachau -- or any SS officer, or any offical or soldier of the Third Reich whatsoever -- did or failed to do. From my perspective, the Hitler who wrote Mein Kampf makes no mention whatever about the mass gassing and incineration of Jews, Poles, Slavs and others at the hands of men who could not at their trials (nor could anyone since) produce documents signed by Hitler ordering the crimes against humanity they committed. The Hitler "The Triumph of the Will" portrays and who Goebbels' works commend to the German people, is a man who loves his country and wished to free is people from the slavery imposed uponthem by the treaty of Versailles and the economic plotting and international cabals of the Zionists. He came to set his prople free and punish the evildoers, and this entailed fighting against wicked forces that could not be peacefully dislodged from world control. The nations he was forced to occupy resisted the forces of freedom and progress. They had a choice to get with the program or get swept aside. Some of those claiming to act in Hitler's name clearly have erred, but we cannot hold him responsible. After all, Hitler was not an all-powerful, all-knowing God, supernaturally dwelling inside his agents and able to know and oppose every evil act they committed."
A commander is responsible for the actions of his troops. How much more is God responsible for the actions of those ion whom he dwells and supposedly edifies?
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The poster then made a rather arrogant and not-nice comment about Doc that I will not repeat here. I'll take my own crack at the guy's response in a couple of days or so, I think his argument is ultimately fallacious, but I'd like to see what comes up here as well.
Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,
Jason
God loves us exactly the way we are, but He loves us far too much to leave us that way. --- Leighton Ford | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 4/8/2002 3:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Jason, what site do you moderate? Do you mind sharing the address?
quote:
A commander is responsible for the actions of his troops. How much more is God responsible for the actions of those ion whom he dwells and supposedly edifies
God has given people a FREE WILL which means that ALL people have the freedom to yield to the Holy Spirit Or choose to follow a different drummer in EVERY decision. We have two forces at work in this world that are fighting a war in the heavenlies. One is fighting on our behalf and wants to give us FREEDOM from being slaves to sin. It is TOTALLY about relationship. The other is deceiving, accusing, conniving ... and is TOTALLY about slavery.
God wants us to CHOOSE relationship with Him. He doesn't FORCE it upon us since God is a respecter of persons. When people make the decision to act outside of God's love they are CHOOSING to go in the other direction away from God (which the bible calls SIN) "The wages of sin is death"
God could have chosen to set up this world to operate where He is in total control, thus the one responsible for our actions, YET for our sakes God decided to give us the FREEDOM to choose -- we are not slaves under God's lordship.
That's my two cents,
trosie
"You can't have a law without if reflecting some worldview ... For all law is the imposition of someone's values." Brandon
Edited by - trosie on 04/08/2002 8:02:59 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Orpheus42
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 4/9/2002 12:58 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't mind a bit- we can always use more good Christians :)
http://pub5.ezboard.com/bzetoumenehoalethia
Zetoumene ho Alethia is Greek for "Seeking the Truth" :)
Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,
Jason
God loves us exactly the way we are, but He loves us far too much to leave us that way. --- Leighton Ford | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/10/2002 2:06 AM (GMT -6) | | I'll take a stab Orpheus.
First, the objector has a point. David was rebuked for giving occasion for the enemies of God to blaspheme because of his behavior. (Forget where the reference is). God leverages his own "name" (reputation) on the behavior of his "body" (the Church). So, the Church bears a great deal of responsibility for people thinking the way your objector does. And God, to this extent, bears some responsibility having decided to leverage his credibility in this way.
But this is different from the theodicy question. God isn't guility of what people do -- even people who claim to be Christians -- for people have free will. If Colin Powell were to act outrageous on his trip to the Middle East, it would reflect poorly on President Bush and the whole United States, but neither Bush nor the United States would be morally culpable for what he did (unless, of course, we KNEW he'd act this way and sent him anyway -- a little dig on the foreknowledge issue ). In the same way, God can't be held morally culpable for the wrongs his people do, though he does ultimately take responsibility for their sins. This is what the Cross is all about!
Third, its not just the Church that is commissioned by God to reflect his character in all they do, but ALL PEOPLE. Indeed, "the Church," defined as an institution, is no different than any other institution on the earth: "3M corporation," Repubicans, Womens League of Voters, The Shriners, etc... Its just an institution. It advertises itself as God's institution, but so do a myriad of other institutions. This means nothing. People say alot of things about themselves, little of which is true. So when the Church murders people, it indeed harms God's reputation, for people (mistakenly) think it means something -- but it shouldn't -- any more than when any other institution acts outrageously.
The true Church is not recognized by what they SAY, but by what they DO ("by their fruits you shall know them"). The true Church is not an institution, but a people. They are "the body of Christ," and can be recognized because they ACT LIKE CHRIST -- just like you can tell MY body from someone elses body because IT ACTS LIKE ME. Christ IS the head. Christ's life IS formed in them. The Spirit of God IS present in them. They don't SAY it. They ARE it.
So, the objection of your friend really has no foundation, even though its psychologically understandable. It's like refuting Buddhism because of bad people who claim to be Buddhists.
Hope this helps.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Orpheus42
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 4/15/2002 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Muchas gracias. That's very similar to the reply I was bouncing around in my head. 
I'll be praying for y'all when I'm in Scotland next week! 
Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,
Jason
God loves us exactly the way we are, but He loves us far too much to leave us that way. --- Leighton Ford | | Back to Top | | |
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