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Electra
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   Posted 4/15/2002 7:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I’m interested in your ideas about the relationship between wrath and love, and I’m especially interested in ideas with biblical support.

Ditch #1

A frequent criticism against open theists is that because of their emphasis on God’s love, they fail to take the pervasive biblical theme of God’s wrath seriously. The implication of this criticism is that the biblical themes of God’s love and God’s wrath are in competition, and/or that biblical depictions of God’s wrath suggest that God is not always loving. What do you think?

Ditch #2

But here’s another criticism, this time from the other end of the continuum: If we say that God is still loving even in the midst of executing fierce wrath against the people of God—who are often figuratively represented as unfaithful wives and/or disobedient children—then isn’t this rationale analogous to how a battered woman might rationalize her husband’s abuse? What do you think?

Electra

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
I thought I could organize freedom—
how Scandinavian of me. •·~ Bjørk
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chambes
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   Posted 4/15/2002 9:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but open view does say that God’s character is unchanging. He may change how he acts in response to our decisions, but who he is never changes. And he is love.

So, I think the wrath must be a form of his love. His unchanging character is displayed in different ways, as is suggested here:

2 Sam 22:26-28
26 "To the faithful you show yourself faithful,
to the blameless you show yourself blameless,
27 to the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd.
28 You save the humble,
but your eyes are on the haughty to bring them low.
NIV


Keep that in the back of your mind as I go on…

Deut 4:23-24
23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
NIV

This verse is warning that if they make idols, God’s wrath will come upon them, for he is a consuming fire.

So, God is a consuming fire. That description of God as fire is all over the place from Genesis to Revelation, and it is used in two ways - the burning up of the wicked and the refining of the righteous. Jesus came to baptize us with fire (Matt 3:11), hell is depicted as fire, Christ will come back with fire (2 Thess 1:7) and so on.

George MacDonald wrote an excellent essay on the statement “Our God is a consuming fire.” In it he said:

quote:

“For love loves unto purity. Love has ever in view the absolute loveliness of that which it beholds…Therefore all that is not beautiful in the beloved, all that comes between and is not of love’s kind, must be destroyed. And our God is a consuming fire.”

“He will shake heaven and earth, that only the unshakeable may remain…he is a consuming fire, that only that which cannot be consumed may stand for eternal. It is the nature of God, so terribly pure that it destroys all that is not pure as fire…It is not that the fire will burn us if we do not worship thus; but that the fire will burn us until we worship thus; yea, will go on burning within us after all that is foreign to it has yielded to it force, no longer with pain and consuming, but as the highest consciousness of life, the presence of God.”



God’s love is a consuming fire that refines us. But that very same fire burns up the wicked, for the impure cannot survive the fire of The Pure.

So, to people that are clinging to wickedness as their life, who are clinging to sin, the burning up of that impurity seems like wrath. If fact, it is wrath. But to us redeemed, it is a cleansing fire, it is discipline that refines us. It is love.

So, the love and the wrath are the same thing from different points of view, like God showing himself pure to the pure but shrewd to the crooked.

This is similar to a parent disciplining a child. The parent does it out of love, but it seems like wrath to the child. The parent wouldn't discipline the child if the parent didn't love the child.


So, that's my thought. It seems to fit well to me, let me know if I'm missing something. I just recently did a study on God's consuming fire, but I hadn't thought of applying it to God's love/wrath before. I have 6 pages of verses talking about fire, if you want more.

chambes

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to get what he cannot lose." ~Jim Elliot
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/15/2002 11:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll go with what chambes said about wrath being a corrective.

Wrath certainly and undeniably is a theme in scripture. Sure enough.

But God is love.

Here is what I was reading today.
LOOK FOR THE BOLD AND THE UNDERLINING!

HERE'S THE MAIN THINGS:

  • Scripture . . . .At one time it uses terms descriptive of His nature. . . ."name which is above every name"...


  • HIS NATURE IS BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION. (MEPH WILL LIKE THAT!)

  • these, titles do not set forth His nature


  • Scripture designates Him by innumerable other titles, calling Him Shepherd, King Physician, Bridegroom, Way, Door, Fountain, Bread, Axe, and Rock.


  • ...on account of the divers manners wherein grace is given to us, which, because of the riches of His goodness, according to his manifold137 wisdom, he bestows on them that need,


  • WE DO KNOW HIS ACTS/ENERGIES PERSONALLY AND DIRECTLY.

  • ...the variety of the effectual working which, out of His tender-heartedness to His own creation, according to the peculiar necessity of each...He bestows upon them that need...


  • CUSTOMIZED SERVICE.

  • ...the Creator Word, the Only begotten God, apportioning His succour according to the measure of the needs of each, distributes mercies various and manifold on account of the many kinds and characters of the recipients of His bounty, but appropriate to the necessities of individual requirements...


  • He shepherds; He enlightens; He nourishes; He heals; He guides; He raises up; He calls into being things that were not; He upholds what has been created. Thus the good things that come from God reach us "through the Son"...


  • THE ECONOMY OF GOD'S GRACE AND WRATH "reach us 'through the Son'" NOTICE.

  • Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God. And so "all things are made through/by him," and "all things were created through/by him and for him.




I SUSPECT THAT WHEN WE DISCUSS "WRATH" WE HAD BETTER PREPARE OURSELVES TO BE SPEAKING OF CHRIST, HIMSELF. NOT THE FATHER. AND IT IS, AFTER ALL, CHRIST WHO IS THE ONE WORTHY TO JUDGE TOO; HE EARNED THAT ON THE CROSS.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

THAT MIGHT BE A LOOSE THOUGHT IN OUR HEADS -- ARE WE PREPARED, AS EVANGELICALS, TO CONNECT THAT WITH ANYTHING?

- PoW


quote:



=========================================
The Book of Saint Basil on the Spirit.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-08/Npnf2-08-06.htm

Chapter VIII

In how many ways "Through whom "is used; and in what sense "with whom" is more suitable. Explanation of how the Son receives a commandment, and how late is sent.

17. When, then, the apostle "thanks God through Jesus Christ,"122 and again says that "through Him" we have "received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations,"123 or "through Him have access unto this grace wherein we stand and rejoice,"124 he sets forth the boons conferred on us by the Son, at one time making the grace of the good gifts pass through from the Father to us, and at another bringing us to the Father through Himself. For by saying "through whom we have received grace and apostleship,"125 he declares the supply of the good gifts to proceed from that source; and again in saying "through whom we have had access,"126 he sets forth our acceptance and being made "of the household of God"127 through Christ. Is then the confession of the grace wrought by Him to usward a detraction from His glory? Is it not truer to say that the recital of His benefits is a proper argument for glorifying Him? It is on this account that we have not found Scripture describing the Lord to us by one name, nor even by such terms alone as are indicative of His godhead and majesty. At one time it uses terms descriptive of His nature, for it recognises the "name which is above every name,"128 the name of Son,129 and speaks of true Son,130 and only begotten God,131 and Power of God,132 and Wisdom,133 and Word.134 Then again, on account of the divers manners135 wherein grace is given to us, which, because of the riches of His goodness,136 according to his manifold137 wisdom, he bestows on them that need, Scripture designates Him by innumerable other titles, calling Him Shepherd,138 King139 Physician,140 Bridegroom,141 Way,142 Door,143 Fountain,144 Bread,145 Axe,146 and Rock.147 And these, titles do not set forth His nature, but, as I have remarked, the variety of the effectual working which, out of His tender-heartedness to His own creation, according to the peculiar necessity of each, He bestows upon them that need. Them that have fled for refuge to His ruling care, and through patient endurance have mended their wayward ways,148 He calls "sheep," and confesses Himself to be, to them that hear His voice and refuse to give heed to strange teaching, a "shepherd." For "my sheep, He says, "hear my voice." To them that have now reached a higher stage and stand in need of righteous royalty,149 He is a King. And in that, through the straight way of His commandments, He leads men to good actions, and again because He safely shuts in all who through faith in Him betake themselves for shelter to the blessing of the higher wisdom,150 He is a Door.So He says, "By me if any man enter in, ... he shall go in and out and shall find pastare."151 Again, because to the faithful He is a defence strong, unshaken, and harder to break than any bulwark, He is a Rock. Among these titles, it is when He is styled Door, or Way, that the phrase "through Him" is very appropriate and plain. As, however, God and Son, He is glorified with and together with152 the Father, in that "at, the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."153 Wherefore we use both terms, expressing by the one His own proper dignity, and by the other His grace to usward.

18. For "through Him" comes every succour to our souls, and it is in accordance with each kind of care that an appropriate title has been devised. So when He presents to Himself the blameless soul, not having spot or wrinkle,154 like apure maiden, He is called Bridegroom, but whenever He receives one in sore plight from the devil's evil strokes, healing it in the heavy infirmity of its sins, He is named Physician. And shall this His care for us degrade to meanness oar thoughts of Him? Or, on the contrary, shall it smite us with amazement at once at the mighty power and love to man155 of the Saviour, in that He both endured to suffer with us156 in our infirmities, and was able to come down to our weakness? For not heaven and earth and the great seas, not the creatures that live in the water and on dry land, not plants, and stars, and air, and seasons, not the vast variety in the order of the universe,157 so well sets forth the excellency of His might as that God, being incomprehensible, should have been able, impassibly, through flesh, to have come into close conflict with death, to the end that by His own suffering He might give us the boon of freedom from suffering.158 The apostle, it is true, says, "In all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us."159 But in a phrase of this kind there is no suggestion of any lowly and subordinate ministry,160 but rather of the succour rendered "in the power of his might."161 For He Himself has bound the strong man and spoiled his goods,162 that is, us men, whom our enemy had abused in every evil activity, and made "vessels meet for the Master's use "163 us who have been perfected for every work through the making ready of that part of us which is in our own control.164 Thus we have had our approach to the Father through Him, being translated from "the power of darkness to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light."165 We must not, however, regard the oeconomy166 through the Son as a compulsory and subordinate ministration resulting from the low estate of a slave, but rather the voluntary solicitude working effectually for His own creation in goodness and in pity, according to the will of God the Father. For we shall be consistent with true religion if in all that was and is from tithe to time perfected by Him, we both bear witness to the perfection of His power, and in no case put it asunder from the Father's will. For instance, whenever the Lord is called the Way, we are carried on to a higher meaning, and not to that which is derived from the vulgar sense of the word. We understand by Way that advance167 to perfection which is made stage by stage, and in regular order, through the works of righteousness and" the illumination of knowledge;"168 ever longing after what is before, and reaching forth unto those things which remain,169 until we shall have reached the blessed end, the knowledge of God, which the Lord through Himself bestows on them that have trusted in Him. For our Lord is an essentially good Way, where erring and straying are unknown, to that which is essentially good, to the Father. For "no one," He says, "cometh to the Father but ["by" A.V.] through me."170 Such is our way up to God "through the Son."

19. It will follow that we should next in order point out the character of the provision of blessings bestowed on us by the Father "through him." Inasmuch as all created nature, both this visible world and all that is conceived of in the mind, cannot hold together without the care and providence of God, the Creator Word, the Only begotten God, apportioning His succour according to the measure of the needs of each, distributes mercies various and manifold on account of the many kinds and characters of the recipients of His bounty, but appropriate to the necessities of individual requirements. Those that are confined in the darkness of ignorance He enlightens: for this reason He is true Light.171 Portioning requital in accordance with the desert of deeds, He judges: for this reason He is righteous Judge.172 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment to the Son."173 Those that have lapsed from the lofty height of life into sin He raises from their fall: for this reason He is Resurrection.174 Effectually working by the much of His power and the will of His goodness He does all things. He shepherds; He enlightens; He nourishes; He heals; He guides; He raises up; He calls into being things that were not; He upholds what has been created. Thus the good things that come from God reach us "through the Son," who works in each case with greater speed than speech can utter. For not lightnings, not light's course in air, is so swift; not eyes' sharp turn, not the movements of our very thought. Navy by the divine energy is each one of these in speed further surpassed than is the slowest of all living creatures outdone in motion by birds, or even winds, or the rush of the heavenly bodies: or, not to mention these, by our very thought itself. For what extent of time is needed by Him who "upholds all things by the word of His power, "175 and works not by bodily agency, nor requires the help of hands to form and fashion, but holds in obedient following and unforced consent the nature of all things that are? So as Judith says, "Thou hast thought, and what things thou didst determine were ready at hand."176 On the other hand, and test we should ever be drawn away by the greatness of the works wrought to imagine that the Lord is without beginning,177 what saith the Self-Existent?178 "I live through [by, A.V.] the Father, "179 and the power of God; "The Son hath power [can, A.V.] to do nothing of himself. "180 And the self-complete Wisdom? I received "a commandment what I should say and what I should speak."181 Through all these words He is guiding us to the knowledge of the Father, and referring our wonder at all that is brought into existence to Him, to the end that "through Him" we may know the Father. For the Father is not regarded from the difference of the operations, by the exhibition of a separate and peculiar energy; for whatsoever things He sees the Father doing, "these also doeth the Son likewise; "182 but He enjoys our wonder at all that comes to pass out of the glory which comes to Him from the Only Begotten, rejoicing in the Doer Himself as well as in the greatness of the deeds, and exalted by all who acknowledge Him as Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, "through whom [by whom, A.V.] are all things, and for whom are all things."183 Wherefore, saith the Lord, "All mine are thine,"184 as though the sovereignty over created things were conferred on Him, and "Thine are mine," as though the creating Cause came thence to Him. We are not to suppose that He used assistance in His action, or yet was entrusted with the ministry of each individual work by detailed commission, a condition distinctly menial and quite inadequate to the divine dignity. Rather was the Word full of His Father's excellences; He shines forth from the Father, and does all things according to the likeness of Him that begat Him. For if in essence He is without variation, so also is He without variation in power.185 And of those whose power is equal, the operation also is in all ways equal. And Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God.186 And so "all things are made through [by, A.V.] him,"187 and "all things were created through [by, A.V.] him and for him,"188 not in the discharge of any slavish service, but in the fulfilment of the Father's will as Creator.




Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/15/2002 5:18:54 PM
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GregBoyd
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   Posted 4/15/2002 12:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1) I don't know why the "wrath of God" motif would be any more problematic for open theists than for anyone else.

2) Indeed, it would seem to me that the "wrath of God" motif would be most problematic to those who stress that God predestines everything according to his will. How does one render intelligible the idea that God gets angry at things he himself predestined?

3) Luther somewhere said that God's wrath IS his love experienced in an unredeemed state. I think something like this is true. God's wrath and anger aren't competing attributes -- like he is partly loving and partly wrathful. They are one and the same. As always, the crucified Christ must be our beginning, middle and end in thinking this through. HERE we see the wrath of God, and it is synomomous with his love. God is wrathful in his love, and loving in his wrath.

4) If we don't always see this -- and we certainly don't -- we have to assume that it is because of our limited perspective. We have to trust that, if we knew all that God knew, we'd agree that his wrath in any given perspective was loving.

5) I don't see how the wrath of God justifies husband abuse, any more than God taking lives justifies murder. The crucial difference -- and this IS crucial -- is that he is God, the source of all, who has rights over all, and who always acts consistent with his loving character. Humans are not God, our lives our derivative, our "rights" are limited, and we don't have consistently loving motives in all we do.

Good guestion

Greg

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/15/2002 12:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Greg said (and it still echos...)
quote:
3) Luther somewhere said that God's wrath IS his love experienced in an unredeemed state. I think something like this is true. God's wrath and anger aren't competing attributes -- like he is partly loving and partly wrathful. They are one and the same. As always, the crucified Christ must be our beginning, middle and end in thinking this through. HERE we see the wrath of God, and it is synomomous with his love. God is wrathful in his love, and loving in his wrath.








Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/15/2002 5:35:09 PM
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Seymour
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   Posted 4/15/2002 7:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Heschel has a really good section on wrath in the second vol. of his "Prophets." The thing i like about it is that he argues that the goal of wrath is to end with its own disapearance. Non-o.v'ers, i've found, enjoy God's wrath for the sake of wrath.

Ditch#2 is the one that i like better. I've always thought of God as a cosmic angry drunk who comes home and beats on his wife and kids. What are you thinking Doc? haven't you read the Bible??? God's anger has little ryhme or reason sometimes. Sometimes he just needs to get it out of his system and take it out on us.


EMILY: “Oh, earth, you’re too wonderful for anybody to realize you. Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it?--every, every minute?”
STAGE MANAGER: “No. The saints and poets, maybe--they do some.”
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/15/2002 7:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You need a little Basil, while you stew...

    Shepherd,
    King,
    Physician,
    Bridegroom,
    Way,
    Door,
    Fountain,
    Bread,
    Axe,
    and Rock.

    BUT these, "titles" do not set forth His "nature".

    (How often we try! We presume.
    While we are only aware of ourselves.)

    but in those "divers manners wherein grace is given to us" listed above, a "variety of the effectual working" , the "riches of His goodness", "His tender-heartedness to His own creation"...

    It is according to the peculiar necessity of each" that has need, that he bestows "according to his manifold wisdom."



But watch out for that wrath!

Its nothing to underestimate--anymore than a North Dakota blizzard.

- PotOnWheel



Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/16/2002 12:25:15 AM
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