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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 12/10/2003 4:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | I have strong inclusivist tendencies. I would like to believe that hell is, as CS Lewis described it, a place “locked from the inside.” That is, it is a place that is affirmatively chosen by those who occupy it, and not a place for anyone who would truly prefer to be with God.
Here’s my question, though. If hell is a place that is chosen by its occupants, how do we explain the following parable from Christ in which the “rich man” does not appear at all to prefer being in hell.
quote:
Luk 16:19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
Luk 16:20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
Luk 16:21 and longing to be fed with the {crumbs} which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luk 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and {that} none may cross over from there to us.'
Luk 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 "But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "
What do you think? Is hell truly a place that is “locked from the inside,” a place that people choose to be? And does this parable make sense in light of that belief?
Brett
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johnmd
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 12/10/2003 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | I think Dr Boyd addresses this topic in his latest book IS GOD TO BLAME. Maybe someone out there can recall the details. I have loaned out my copy.
John | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 12/10/2003 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | What I reckon is...
My understanding of hell is that it is locked from the inside, in that everyone who ends up there has done so by there choice. However, I would say that nobody would want to go to hell or be there.
The reason people will end up in this horrible place is a consequence of their choices. Nobody wants toothache, yet by chosing to eat sweets and not brush one's teeth properly, one is choosing toothache. Hell is the consequence of living life with me at the centre as opposed to Jesus. Living for me in this life might actually be quite fun at times and have a few benefits. However, the cost of not following Jesus is FAR greater, in this life and also in the next.
Does that make sense?
If someone would truly prefer to be with God, then they will die to themselves and become a Christian. But if they truly don't want to be with God, God will give them the dignity of making that decision for themselves and honour that choice by sending them to hell.
In our postmodern world, that seems really unfair. But it's the same as saying "Well son, you are free to play with matches, but if you choose to use them wrongly, you will have chosen to get burnt". It's not unfair that fire hurts if used wrongly, it's just a built-in consequence. The same with hell...if you sow in the flesh you reap destruction.
That's not to say that people won't be surprised when they get there...
...but the same sort of thing happens now.
love
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 12/11/2003 11:53 AM (GMT -6) | | If I may just throw a monkeywrench into things, an objection brought up by many is that some will note that many people on earth WANT to please God. It's just that their view of God is not the Christian view, or they are ignorant of even who Christ is. Therefore, how is it fair that you have a sincere Jew/Muslim/etc. be condemned to Hell simply because he tried to live a "good" life and according to the tenents of what he believes?
So the question is not simply, "Do people want to be apart from God?" but just as importantly, "Which God is the right one to not be apart from?" Both the Christian and the Muslim certainly don't want to end up in Hell, but both have differing views of God's path to be with God in the afterlife and state that doing otherwise would not qualify you.
The Bible speaks that people going to Hell will be judged according to how they lived their lives and how they responded to the amount of light they received. Jesus said that someone who does not know the Master's will and does wrong will still be beaten, but with less blows. He also gives evidence of comparative judgement when he says that it will be easier on Sodom and Gomorrah (not exactly your holy cities) on the day of judgement than one which rejected Christ while He was on earth.
My speculation is that the rich man lived a pretty selfish and deplorable life not at all interested in Heavenly things or loving his fellow man. That is probably why he ended up with such a harsh punishment.
The Bible does not give any specifics on the severity or punishments of sin in relation to actual transgressions. Personally, I don't believe Hell will be for everyone a universal, literal burning where everyone will scream in agony for eternity. I agree more with Lewis' speculation that people will essentially will remain as sinful and self-absorbed as they were in life. And that they will have a sour grapes attitude towards God and others with Him ("How could God save THAT person? He must not be all that great after all...")
I also believe that it is possible for someone not to specifically know of Christ to be saved. It happened many times in the OT, and believe it can happen in today's world. If someone in their heart truly reaches out to God seeking truth, and knows they cannot save themselves by what they do, I believe God may indeed save that person based upon the condition of their hearts (interesting that Lewis' also shares this belief as noted in his Chronicles of Narnia book, "The Last Battle"). This does not mean that evangelism is unnecessary or that everyone who doesn't hear the name of Jesus automatically is saved, simply that God will judge all men fairly.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 12/11/2003 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | You don't get into heaven for believing the right thing...
...otherwise demons would be there! After all, they believe there is one true God.
It's all about surrendering to God's will and trusting God to save you. Trying to do it religiously doesn't please good. A righteous life does, but that's a different thing.
Just some more spanners for the works!
timlings
ps. I also do believe that people will get saved without hearing the name of Jesus. However, they do miss out on a lot! I was a Christian for years before I met Jesus properly. I think I would still have made it to heaven should I have died, however I was missing out on the best person in the universe, and the most fulfilling life too. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/15/2003 9:33 AM (GMT -6) | | timlings you said:
quote:
ps. I also do believe that people will get saved without hearing the name of Jesus. However, they do miss out on a lot! I was a Christian for years before I met Jesus properly. I think I would still have made it to heaven should I have died, however I was missing out on the best person in the universe, and the most fulfilling life too.
Timlings:
What did you mean that you were a Christian for years before I met Jesus properly?
Do you believe that Muslims are saved and heaven bound?
Do you believe that if a (non-messianic) Jew denies that Jesus is the Messiah and dies with that belief, that he or she will go to hell?
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/15/2003 9:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Laplace you wrote:
quote:
If I may just throw a monkeywrench into things, an objection brought up by many is that some will note that many people on earth WANT to please God. It's just that their view of God is not the Christian view, or they are ignorant of even who Christ is. Therefore, how is it fair that you have a sincere Jew/Muslim/etc. be condemned to Hell simply because he tried to live a "good" life and according to the tenents of what he believes?
Do you believe that Muslims are saved and heaven bound?
Do you believe that if a (non-messianic) Jew denies that Jesus is the Messiah and dies with that belief, that he or she will go to hell?
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chiam
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/15/2003 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | But Laplace you said
quote:
I also believe that it is possible for someone not to specifically know of Christ to be saved. It happened many times in the OT, and believe it can happen in today's world. If someone in their heart truly reaches out to God seeking truth, and knows they cannot save themselves by what they do, I believe God may indeed save that person based upon the condition of their hearts (interesting that Lewis' also shares this belief as noted in his Chronicles of Narnia book, "The Last Battle"). This does not mean that evangelism is unnecessary or that everyone who doesn't hear the name of Jesus automatically is saved, simply that God will judge all men fairly.
Please explain....
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 12/15/2003 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | chiam,
The difference is reflected in passages in Romans 1 and Jesus' own words about receiving punishment based upon how much knowledge about God they have received.
My first words were referring mainly to those who are ignorant of who Jesus is. These I would include are those who have never heard of the Bible and often are in remote areas of the world, as well as people who existed before Jesus arrived on Earth. In Romans it says that everyone has some knowledge of God through what they observe in creation (modern terminology refers to this as "general" revalation), however they may lack "special" revalation (when God actually speaks to individuals). Still, the general revalation is sufficient for salvation, based upon the condition of people's hearts. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to quantify who "gets it" and who doesn't. Only God knows.
The second group of people are those who know of God's plan and know of the name of Jesus yet reject Him as who He said He was (the Messiah). The Muslims believe He was simply a prophet and a good teacher, and many Jews don't even believe He was from God at all.
Those who claim that rejecting Jesus doesn't automatically reject God are essentially calling Jesus (and God) a liar, because Jesus said:
"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)
This implies of course that Islam and Christianity are incompatible since their views of Jesus diverge so much (including denying His death on the cross and subsequent resurrection).
Hope this clears things up a bit.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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