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Ochuk
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 102

Posted 12/17/2003 10:58 AM (GMT -6)

A guy told me this when discussing the death penalty.

"Adam I say we use the BIble as the standard of justice. THus it is just to execute homosexuals, adulterers, etc. To say it is unjust is to call God unjust. There's simply no way around that Adam. At least you guys have not shown a way around that."

I'm not sure how to respond. How would you?

Read my blog at ochuk.gizzar.com

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 12/17/2003 11:29 AM (GMT -6)

It is also just to execute disobedient children.

The question is one of exegesis. Were the laws adopted by the Hebrew people meant for all times?

The answer is no.

There were reasons they had such stringent laws, but they do not apply to us today.

Like it or not, the Bible does not give us a blue-print for what we should do in every conceivable ethical situation.

dlw

Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

Ochuk
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 102

Posted 12/17/2003 11:37 AM (GMT -6)

Does God's word stand forever? Is he not the same yesterday, today, and forever?

(this would be his answer)

Read my blog at ochuk.gizzar.com

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 12/17/2003 12:31 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Ochuk

Does God's word stand forever? Is he not the same yesterday, today, and forever?

(this would be his answer)

Can God's word be misinterpreted? Haven't things changed since the death and ressurrection of Jesus?

Can we not learn stuff about the world that weren't known during Biblical times and don't we need to know all such facts in making judgements about what is right conduct?

dlw

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 12/17/2003 12:42 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Ochuk

A guy told me this when discussing the death penalty.

"Adam I say we use the BIble as the standard of justice. THus it is just to execute homosexuals, adulterers, etc. To say it is unjust is to call God unjust. There's simply no way around that Adam. At least you guys have not shown a way around that."

I'm not sure how to respond. How would you?

I'd say, "O.K. and God also calls on us to practice 'greater love' which is described as laying down our lives for others so will you be taking the execution for those homosexuals and adulterers instead?"

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 12/17/2003 7:59 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Ochuk

Does God's word stand forever? Is he not the same yesterday, today, and forever?

(this would be his answer)

As an example of how things have changed with the inauguration of the New Covenant, consider that to Jews under the OT, yes, adulterers were to be put to death. However, when Paul dealt with adulterers in the Corinthian church, the penalty was not death, but was instead discipline, even to the point of disfellowship/excommunication.

We also must keep in mind that the Mosaic system of government was designed for the government of a earthly nation, whereas Jesus said his kingdom was a spiritual one and not of this world.

So no, God's word hasn't changed, we have just been the beneficiaries of God's progressive revelation of grace to mankind.

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Rom. 14:17).

P.S.: As to the death penalty, Paul never disputed the right of the secular government of Rome to execute those who deserved it. It seems to me that your friend's theonomist interpretation of Mosaic Law is not able to be consistently applied to today as, (1) The Jews were a civil nation, whereas the Church is a spiritual kingdom, and (2) The United States is not the Church and is also not OT Israel.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Ochuk
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 102

Posted 12/18/2003 9:59 AM (GMT -6)

We were talking about government's rights. The issue of Calvin and Servitus (s?) came up, and the debate turned to the question "Was it just for him to be put to death?"

Read my blog at ochuk.gizzar.com

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 12/18/2003 6:40 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Ochuk

We were talking about government's rights. The issue of Calvin and Servitus (s?) came up, and the debate turned to the question "Was it just for him to be put to death?"

Well of course legally the gov't of Geneva had a sovereign right to execute Servetus for heresy. That said, it seems clear that this was little more than Calvin silencing a critic, not a morally justified execution.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 12/18/2003 6:53 PM (GMT -6)

It is important that gov't have restrictions on its authority, such as its ability to manipulate its people into supporting a war for spurious reasons, but this is evidenced in the OT through examples such as the importance of separation of Church and State for Samuels and Saul, Nathan and David and then how the building of the temple lacked the mobility of the tabernacle and aligned the state and (church) moreso. This, combined with the inequities that arose from Solomon's taxation and concentrated development led the northern tribes to separate and then their kings to promote the worship of idols since they didn't want them going to the temple and being led to be disloyal...

But those are general principles derived from historical experiences recorded in the Bible, as stated before the Bible doesn't give us a blueprint of what to do in every conceivable ethical circumstance.

dlw

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