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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 12/29/2003 7:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | Since the title of this board is "Miscellaneous Discussion Topics" I thought I'd bring up something that has been on my mind lately. And Doc, I'd really like to hear from you on this one, as it goes against something you've preached about in the past.
I have a friend I've known for ten years who is a prophet. Not just one with the gift of prophecy now and then, but he holds the office of a prophet and is a travelling missionary to the U.S. He most often street preaches and preaches in churches and wherever people will have him. He is ordained as a minister and a large part of his ministry is preaching against the occult. He's helped lead a lot of youth, who were formerly in bondage to the occult, to the Lord.
He told me recently that when he was in California a few years back, (God has called him and his wife to minister all over the U.S.) that when he preached on the streets there, He prophesied that God would send fire on them if they would not repent of their sins. He told me that the places where all those out-of-control forest fires occurred in California, were exactly the cities he prophesied this to.
Doc, you've said before that you don't believe that God still judges the nations in the same way that He did in OT times. Yet, my friend is credible and this really happened. Also, I know that Pastor David Wilkerson of the Times Square Gospel Church had been saying for years that God was going to let something horrible happen in New York City because of its grievous sin, and guess what?....
I guess my question is this: What do you make of this? And do you still believe what you did before?
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/29/2003 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress: You simply asserting that he holds the office of a prophet certainly doesn't make it so. Anyone can assert that (as I am sure he has). I'm sure those cities were the ones he was talking about, however, does he have any documentation that specifically shows him condemning those very areas.
As far as David Wilkerson, he has made many false prophecies as well, and what about New York City? Did he specifically state that a plane would crash into the twin towers? When these "prophets" publicly make statements that can be verified BEFORE the event and are documented, then I will believe them. By and large they are like those who heal mysterious back ailments or emotional problems. One could think God could do a little better than that.
This leads to a question: is there a legitimate office of prophet that people hold (besides simply being called by God in a special way): it sounds more to me like a person who needs to feel special. I do not believe are called as prophets today. We have his Spirit: there is no need for special prophets. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 12/31/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
Tigress: You simply asserting that he holds the office of a prophet certainly doesn't make it so. Anyone can assert that (as I am sure he has). I'm sure those cities were the ones he was talking about, however, does he have any documentation that specifically shows him condemning those very areas.
As far as David Wilkerson, he has made many false prophecies as well, and what about New York City? Did he specifically state that a plane would crash into the twin towers? When these "prophets" publicly make statements that can be verified BEFORE the event and are documented, then I will believe them. By and large they are like those who heal mysterious back ailments or emotional problems. One could think God could do a little better than that.
This leads to a question: is there a legitimate office of prophet that people hold (besides simply being called by God in a special way): it sounds more to me like a person who needs to feel special. I do not believe are called as prophets today. We have his Spirit: there is no need for special prophets.
I understand that you have no reason to believe that my friend is a prophet like Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, etc. But, let's just say that for the sake of argument he is. How does a Christian deal with that today? A prophet isn't simply one who foretells the future, you know. He's also one through whom God speaks to the world, convicting them as well as letting them know how much He loves them and wants to see them saved. My friend, Redge, sees visions and is led by God constantly to people and places where he wouldn't otherwise go and to say things he wouldn't otherwise say in his own power or authority. Many have come to the Lord through his ministry and many churches across the country have accepted him as a true minister of Jesus. He never preaches in contradiction of the Word and he always points to Jesus - never to himself.
Now, if indeed his preaching is sound and his call is from God, and his prophesies are legit, how should we as the Church respond to it?
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/31/2003 6:27 AM (GMT -6) | | One should respond no differently to your friend's ministry, Tigress, than one would respond to anyone else in ministry: we check the Word, to the best of our ability, to see if what's being taught is accurate. I mean, it's no different than daily Christianity. We go about our business doing what we're supposed to do, trying to be as noble as the Bereans (Acts 17) were, when they checked up on what Paul and his cohorts were teaching. We have people gifted with administrative abilities, teaching, evangelism, etc. We don't treat any one differently than the next. We just ensure, as we are able, that it's all done according to the Word, orderly (not in confusion and chaos) and in love. Then you just continue about your business, doing your thing, and call it a day!
And by the way, there isn't any reason why a real prophet of God cannot proclaim something about the future--God is, after all, quite able to give such information--but, like many moves of God, it is a rare event today (at least the Real McCoy stuff is).
For the prophets of God,
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 12/31/2003 6:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Starkman
One should respond no differently to your friend's ministry, Tigress, than one would respond to anyone else in ministry: we check the Word, to the best of our ability, to see if what's being taught is accurate. I mean, it's no different than daily Christianity. We go about our business doing what we're supposed to do, trying to be as noble as the Bereans (Acts 17) were, when they checked up on what Paul and his cohorts were teaching. We have people gifted with administrative abilities, teaching, evangelism, etc. We don't treat any one differently than the next. We just ensure, as we are able, that it's all done according to the Word, orderly (not in confusion and chaos) and in love. Then you just continue about your business, doing your thing, and call it a day!
And by the way, there isn't any reason why a real prophet of God cannot proclaim something about the future--God is, after all, quite able to give such information--but, like many moves of God, it is a rare event today (at least the Real McCoy stuff is).
For the prophets of God,
Starkman
Thanks for your response, but I guess what I'm asking is not so much about how to deal with modern-day prophets, as how do we deal with modern-day prophecies. I mean, if it's true that certain things happen because God decided to make or let them happen, and He forewarned a certain community about it beforehand so that they could repent and prevent it from happening in the first place, then that changes a lot of what we as the Church should say about certain events - like for instance 9/11, if indeed that event was a judgement from God. I'm not saying that I believe it was, but if it truly was, the Church has no right to go around saying that it wasn't. Not to mention the fact that this might mean that we need to be supporting our prophets better than we have been as my friend, Redge, has suffered much in his ministry, and I'm sure many other prophets do also. I should also clarify that he's a missionary to the U.S. just as much as he is a prophet, so he's evangelizing as well as prophesying.
If and when there are these kinds of prophecies foretold, how should we deal with them if we're a part of the community about which the prophecy is given? I have a cousin and her husband who lives in California where Redge's prophecies came true. She claims to be a Christian but also believes that there are many ways to heaven. She's essentially part of the problem - one of the ones responsible for the judgement. And just like in Revelations, we as the Church could be part of the problem, too. I guess I'm just saying that we need to be ready to heed these messages from God, much more so than I think we've been willing to in the past.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/31/2003 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
Well, I think that if God were going to send a prophet to someone about a coming disaster like, say, 911, He'd be sure to send that prophet (as He did OT prophets) to a source where the message would be broadcasted to the nation. Anyone can say, "There's going to be great doom in New York ...," and it can be said to anyone ("Yea, the Lord would saith unto you, my child ..." happens all the time in the extreme charismatic churches). Further, I do not worry about heeding prophecies people (or prophets) when they do the typical "Thus saith the Lord"--the Elizebethian/King James langauge is a dead give-away that something's rotten in Denmark ... in my opinion. If someone's a real prophet, God will most likely have long been dealing with the person who is to recieve the prophecy; seldom does God need to say anything to anyone that He hasn't already been saying to them for some time.
To sum, I treat prophecies, Tigress, as I said above; like anything else in my day-to-day Christian walk. If God is speaking, He's surely not so helpless to leave His people wondering if He spoke. Besides, He's been very clear in His Word about what He expects from us, and He, therefore, doesn't need to send prophets to say what's clearly been said already. If God wishes to speak to us, He'll do so, and there won't be any need to complicate the matter with "prophecies" that are either so vague or typical. God won't let those kinds of things get in His way when it's time for Him to talk.
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 12/31/2003 9:18 AM (GMT -6) | | I guess you can tell that in some ways I'm questioning his legitimacy myself. I've known him for ten years and he's never wavered in his devotion to Biblical truth and accuracy. And God really seems to use him in miraculous ways. Too many things have happened with him and his, now deceased wife, for them to be coincidences. (He's remarried recently so we'll see where the Lord leads them together.) But, I don't see or hear about very many people like them in the Church as a whole, so I do get concerned that maybe it's all just in their minds, or something. I mean they usually get involved in the more charismatic churches wherever they go, which can often "fuel the fire," so to speak. Yet, if the fire is truly from the Holy Spirit, it's a good thing. I just sometimes wonder if it really is, that's all. But, just because I'm questioning it, doesn't mean it's not legit, either. So, I can't seem to know for sure. I mean if we knew any of the prophets of the Bible, none of us could truly know for sure if what they were saying was true, right? I mean just because they were correct in their past prophecies doesn't necessarily mean that they will always tell the truth in the future, right? We always have to be questioning the legitimacy of their messages, right? Arghhh! In the words of the great Sweat Hog, Vinnie Barbarino, "I'm so confused!"
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/31/2003 10:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Ah! The days of Welcome Back Carter (that was the name of the show, wasn't it? I didn't watch it much).
You know, I think what can be very stressfull for Christians in this regard is the act itself of questioning someone's ministry, particularly the ministry of a prophet. That ministry is so often presented as if one dare not question it because ... well, God speaks through them. It's a rather circular ordeal: "Thus saith the Lord," well, how do I know? Because "Thus saith the Lord." And around and around it goes. It just can't be that they aren't hearing from God, can it; after all, they are a prophet of God.
Well, you're right, Tigress, when you said that even a good prophet can go astray. Hek, that applies to all of us! But God is never going to hold you responsible because someone came up to you and said "Thus saith the Lord." If God has an issue to address with you, He'll let you know personally in His walk with you. If someone then confirms something you're dealing with, you then have more reason to harken to what you already know. But if someone just comes up to you and says, "The Lord gave me a word for you ... God wants you to go to Zimbabwa; He has a great work for you there. You'll meet two men who will provide your needs and see that you are welcomed ...." Well, if God ain't told you about going to Zimbwabwa, shine the whole thing on and go about your business (as I noted that we will eventually do anyway).
Don't be confused. You're never going to miss God if He has something He wants to say to you. After all, He's God. If He can't get the point across, well, then we all are doomed!
Be blessed,
Starkman
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