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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/5/2006 4:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | Mephi-
An interesting book:
Daniel Goleman. Emotional Intelligence.
A book that argues there are useful, non-dysfunctional applications of anger:
Carol Tavris. Anger: THe Misunderstood Emotion (NY: Touchstone, '89)--and $114 on amazon.
A piece that argues, contra Tavris, that anger is something always to be overcome:
Diane Tice & Roy F. Baumeister (wife and husband), "Controlling Anger: Self-Induced Emotion Change" in Wegner & Pennebaker's Handbook of Mentail Health.
Interestingly, Aristotle (Nicomachean Ethics, Book IV) describes legitimate and non-legitimate expressions of anger. He talks about a moderate, virtuous anger that is getting angry "at the right person, at the right time, for the right reason, and for the right length of time." You'll disagree with this I suspect, but I thought it was interesting.
Reading through Goleman on anger, he noted that modern psychology/psychiatry is not in complete agreement on whether or not there is a non-dysfunctional anger.
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 9/5/2006 6:45:20 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/5/2006 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | |
Trosie,
Addressing your whole post, with a correction, is *this* -- that the Word of God is the Son. EVERY action of God in the OT is the Son. No one sees the Father but in the Son. The Word in Genesis 1 is the same Word in John 1.
(Corie, please allow the picture!)
Likewise, when Christ said that the story of Moses at the Burning Bush was *proof* of the resurrection of the dead (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was God of the living) he could say that BECAUSE it was He Himself who had, in fact, spoken then from out of the burning Bush.
The OT is about Chirst!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
trosie said...I am coming into this thread and admit I have only read some of the four pages... but I really want to benefit from this discussion because I am wrestling with this particular issue right now in my personal life. Greg Boyd, for those who attend WHC, has done a beautiful job in helping me to see God through Jesus spectacles BUT recently I have discovered that it is the God as Father part that disturbs me. More specifically it is how God related with people in the Old Testament at times that really is disturbing. I don't know what to make of this. I can only imagine for a non-believer the Old Testament would probably not be a evangelizing tool for the most part. Yet I know that even Jesus in the New Testament became angry in the temple. The bible tells us to get angry but sin not therefore God can get angry without sinning. Yet our battle is not flesh and blood but principalities in the heavenlies. Yet in the Old Testament God showed his wrath on nations, even on first born babies, but God does not sin. It's baffling and leaves me hiding behind Jesus when I approach God the Father. I am a sinner and am told to look at the LOG in my own eyes. If God showed wrath on sinners than God could also show his wrath on me. Yes, I ask for forgiveness but continue to fall. How much does God tolerate. Is God conditional? I'd personally appreciate some perspectives. This is a great thread, Mephi! Thanks, trosie
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/5/2006 6:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Imagine you have a person that truly believes the following things. When I say "believes" I don't just mean giving mental assent. I mean that their very core of self-understanding and worldview is being framed by these ideas...
1) The ONLY identity this person has as their primary self-understanding is that they are a sentient creation of God who is loved by God. Nothing more. Nothing less. This person has grown to get life from NOTHING ELSE but the love and beauty of God. And they get this life continually. They no longer think of themselves primarily in terms of gender, ethnicity, nationality, spouse...or anything else. They have no more grandiose hopes or dreams. They have no more regrets about the past. They just see themselves as a center of experience with "this" spirituality and "this" physicality who finds their source completely in God in "this" moment.
2) They only see other persons in terms of being other sentient creatures of God that have various life experiences due to their physical, emotional, and spiritual histories. Each one is a blessing from God. And each one (including them) possibly has some level of socialized craziness because of the "kingdom of this world"
3) The present is the ONLY moment that we really have. Usually when we are fretting about something it's either about the past or the future. Living mindfully in the present...and truly believe that the future will take care of itself. It's not that you don't plan. You do...and you plan well. It's just that you truly take things moment by moment.
4) Discernment is about perception and relation unto life-affirming rhythms of life. It is not productive to get emotionally linked to being "right" or "wrong" We end up getting life from this. Rather living in discernment (via the Spirit) allows one to see what's more helpful, less helpful, or UNhelpful for life-affirming rhythms.
5) Our emotional states are to indicators to help us move in positive directions. This is why they are fundmentally a good thing. Just like pain. Understanding emotions in this way allow us to make distinctions and NOT fall into the idea that we ARE our emotional states. It also allows one to fully OWN their genuine consciously understood emotional responses.
6) Let go and Let God. There's nothing I can do about my finitude and the frustrating things that come from it. Therefore, I choose to surrender to God in the moment...and do nothing else. There is a personal power and freedom to be found in this surrender to the Spirit.
7) EVERYTHING'S gonna be alright. In the end, there is NOTHING to fear. Though pain and injustice exist, it's all going to work out. Things are not out of God's control. God's plan is fully in effect. God is aware of all the trouble in the world. If we just stay open to his Spirit, he will allow us to do the most good where we can. Our job is to abide...and let God work through us. Because of this, there is no fear or anxiety about death or loss.
In short, imagine you have a zombie. A living dead person. Someone that is LOSING THEIR LIVES and living out God's life. You have a person that could fully recognize the horrors of reality around them and emotionally engage with that reality...but without letting that reality be seen as a THREAT or OFFENSE to some valued aspect of themselves. But that would make sense, right? If a person is dead, all the things that gave that person life (ie trying to be right, trying to keep some ideal, trying to fix other people's pain, etc) would fall away. This person has nothing left to defend. All that would remain is a listening, engaging homo sapien who could discern life-affirming rhythms from life-destroying rhythms...and passionately lives according to the life-affirming rhythms, and in doing so minimize the life-destroying.
Now this is not me...yet. I'm still heavy on the road trying to get there! But the freedom I'm feeling is wonderful...but anyways...the question...
Would you see this person being angry AT someone else who willfully, knowingly did something harmful to them or another human being?
Honest answer.
Here's my thought: Anger is functionally a SURVIVAL MECHANISM that provides emotional information to one that something is "wronging", "offending" or "attacking" that one in some way and then provides energy to counteract that something, therefore it's useful in our world...but only as long as the person has some sense of IDENTITY that allows them to feel like they possess something (ie physical life, psychological life, plans, ideals, etc) to be DEFENDED.
What if someone develops an IDENTITY where that no longer exists? What then?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/5/2006 6:36:51 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/6/2006 12:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Trosie:
If a person had no identity? They wouldn't be functional. We are made in the image of God hence I do not think it possible to be functional and totally lose our identity. Emotions -- even denial of emotions -- are part of how we were created hence I believe God experiences emotions. The very gesture of getting out of bed, eating, walking... is a functioning thing that requires a person to have an identity. I believe it's impossible to have no identity!
I think you are misunderstanding me. Basically I was saying that this person would ground their primary self-understanding as a sentient creation of God who is loved by God. They would see themselves simply as a human being before God. This would be their core identity. This person would not allow themselves to be DEFINED by the arbitrary categories placed upon us. This person would internally LIVE by this:
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
This person would just live as a member of the NEW HUMANITY...and would refuse to INTERNALIZE the false categories our social systems provide. They would be "in the world but not OF the world" So, I'm not saying, Trosie, that this person would not have any sense of self or anything like that.
I hope that this is clear.
***********************
Trosie: (emphasis mine)
I am coming into this thread and admit I have only read some of the four pages... but I really want to benefit from this discussion because I am wrestling with this particular issue right now in my personal life.
Greg Boyd, for those who attend WHC, has done a beautiful job in helping me to see God through Jesus spectacles BUT recently I have discovered that it is the God as Father part that disturbs me. More specifically it is how God related with people in the Old Testament at times that really is disturbing. I don't know what to make of this. I can only imagine for a non-believer the Old Testament would probably not be a evangelizing tool for the most part.
Yet I know that even Jesus in the New Testament became angry in the temple. The bible tells us to get angry but sin not therefore God can get angry without sinning. Yet our battle is not flesh and blood but principalities in the heavenlies. Yet in the Old Testament God showed his wrath on nations, even on first born babies, but God does not sin. It's baffling and leaves me hiding behind Jesus when I approach God the Father. I am a sinner and am told to look at the LOG in my own eyes. If God showed wrath on sinners than God could also show his wrath on me. Yes, I ask for forgiveness but continue to fall. How much does God tolerate. Is God conditional?
Trosie, I bolded some stuff in your correspondence to show you something. We're going to fundamentally disagree on a level. I'm leaning towards believing that God does NOT get angry at people. Actually, I have difficulty seeing God getting "angry" at all...period. Before you jump to any conclusive idea about what you think I mean by that, please make sure that you read over this thread a little more. I think I've laid out my thinking pretty well here...at least enough to be understood. So, I don't think any answer I give you is going to help much.
But I'll try something here. POW has a very important point. The Word of God, the means by which all things were created, is the Son...who is Jesus, the Incarnate Word. In shaping the history of Israel, God was pushing human destiny to a point of climax: the Incarnation of God who is also the Messiah. Actually, if we think about John 3, we see that it was the FATHER who initiated this mission. God SENT His son for us. But the Son glorifies the Father...who also glorifies the Son. One cannot speak of about the Messiah, Jesus, without speaking of the Father God from whom he was sent for the freedom of God's people. Jesus IS the Love of the Father.
It's very important to look at the robustly TRINITARIAN nature of salvation history. This is more helpful framework from whence to ask your questions, I think.
:devil:
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/6/2006 12:41:53 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/6/2006 7:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Don:
I Peter 4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
No room here for offense.
Right, Don. Exactly.
************************
It's pretty simple. When one allows their identity to FULLY rely on God and God's love, all the regular sensibilities about life begin to change. The stuff that ONCE seemed like general threats or possible offenses don't anymore. Perhaps this is why Jesus would say something like this...
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
A WORRY-FREE, and (therefore) ANGER-FREE life. Not that you ignore realities that exist...but you put them IN PERSPECTIVE.
And this is why it amazes me that people really believe that God can get angry at people. God has nothing to worry about. God doesn't have a self-concept that ALLOWS for being so FRAGILE as to get angry at someone else.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/6/2006 7:51:55 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/6/2006 7:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, Selah?
What's up on the answer to my question. Given the internalized beliefs of the person I've described,
Would you see this person being angry AT someone else who willfully, knowingly did something harmful to them or another human being?
If not, SHOULD they be, in order to be more like God?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/6/2006 6:09 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/6/2006 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah,
I'll be a tad presumptuous (just for some kicks!) and say that you would say this:
Well, Meph. If there was a person that embodied those kinds of beliefs...really trying to live with Christ as their ultimate center and all that...NO, I really cannot see that person being angry AT someone else who willfully, knowingly did something harmful to them or another human being.
So, if you were to have said that, I probably would have asked this:
Well, Selah, if you can't see that finite, IMPERFECT human being angry AT someone else who willfully, knowingly did something harmful to them or another human being...
then how could you see the INFINITE, PERFECT God getting angry AT people who willfully, knowingly harm others?
Just wondering?
*********************
Now, we've heard from Brandon, Tom, Jeff, Trosie, and Selah...and that's great!
Corey, I think you're up, man! 
Hopefully, you've had some mental bandwidth to think about this some. I love your perspectives on stuff. Share, share, share...
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/6/2006 7:49:42 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/6/2006 10:31 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hi Mephi,
Sorry I didn't respond all day... some of us WORK! ;)
Anyway, I guess you know the pressure's too much for me when I start rambling on these threads. Ok, I give.
As long as God's not complicit in evil...I'm not gonna fight the lesser battles!
love ya,
T
MephEternal said...
Selah,
I'll be a tad presumptuous (just for some kicks!) and say that you would say this:
Well, Meph. If there was a person that embodied those kinds of beliefs...really trying to live with Christ as their ultimate center and all that...NO, I really cannot see that person being angry AT someone else who willfully, knowingly did something harmful to them or another human being.
So, if you were to have said that, I probably would have asked this:
Well, Selah, if you can't see that finite, IMPERFECT human being angry AT someone else who willfully, knowingly did something harmful to them or another human being...
then how could you see the INFINITE, PERFECT God getting angry AT people who willfully, knowingly harm others?
Just wondering?
*********************
Now, we've heard from Brandon, Tom, Jeff, Trosie, and Selah...and that's great!
Corey, I think you're up, man!
Hopefully, you've had some mental bandwidth to think about this some. I love your perspectives on stuff. Share, share, share...
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/7/2006 12:11 AM (GMT -6) | | WOW! I just read the five pages through and there is A LOT of meat to chew on!!!
Mephi, thank you for encourageing me to reframe the way in which I was asking my questions. I believe that taking the perspective you have on this thread would help me considerably in my response to God as Father. The most difficult part in my relating with God as Father has been in the area of anger toward people.
"We do not battle with flesh and blood but with principalities..." From what I have read in these past pages I "think" you are saying that God loves the sinner but hates the sin. God disciplines but does not get angry. I was viewing God's relating with people in the OT as being less loving due to the actions that I interpreted as acts of anger toward people.
Actually, it would be unhealty for a parent to discipline their child out of anger. The loving parent disciplines/corrects their child in order to help grow safely into a well adjusted adult. The discipline is not about the parent's feelings but about what is best for the child. In the same way God did not relate with people out of anger but out of concern and loving correction.
Thanks much!
trosie
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/7/2006 8:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
Hi Mephi,
Sorry I didn't respond all day... some of us WORK! 
Anyway, I guess you know the pressure's too much for me when I start rambling on these threads. Ok, I give. As long as God's not complicit in evil...I'm not gonna fight the lesser battles!
I appreciate your response, T. I trust that this isn't just a capitulation of any typen that I've wrangled from you...but that you genuinely see that point that I've been trying to make.
One of the things that I was talking with the wife about yesterday was this: I forgot how wrenching this could be for some people. I mean, can you imagine how a paradigm shift like this would affect people like JOHN PIPER (the consummate understudy of Jonathon Edwards!)? He'd probably have a theological meltdown or something! He's spent so much of his life and ministry PREACHING God's anger at people to others. He wouldn't know what to do. He has something that he spoke just THIS PAST JUNE called...lo and behold..."Defending My Father's Wrath"
www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/78/1782_Defending_My_Fathers_Wrath/
An exerpt.
There are cultural forces at work inside and outside the church that make me eager to defend my Father’s wrath against me before I was adopted. He does not need my defense. But I believe he would be honored by it. And he commanded us, “Honor your father” (Exodus 20:12).
Nice...
This is one of his talks on the Wrath of God called "God's Wrath: "Vengeance Is Mine, I Will Repay," Says the Lord"
www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/78/204_Gods_Wrath_Vengeance_Is_Mine_I_Will_Repay_Says_the_Lord/ (All emphases mine)
The reason I use the word anger to define part of what wrath is that the two words (orge and thumos) are used over a hundred times in the Bible side by side. Some of them are parallel so that you can hardly distinguish them. For example, Psalm 6:1, “O Lord, rebuke me not in your anger, nor discipline me in your wrath.” Psalm 90:7, “We are brought to an end by your anger; by your wrath we are dismayed.” Hosea 13:11, “I gave you a king in my anger, and I took him away in my wrath.” Romans 2:8, “For those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury [anger].”
When you try to distinguish these words the closest you get is something like this from A. T. Robertson: God’s anger (thumos) is his vehement fury or boiling rage. His wrath (orge) is his settled indignation or his settled anger. In other words, in God’s anger the emphasis falls on the emotional, boiling intensity of it. And in God’s wrath the emphasis falls on the controlled, settled, considered direction and focus of its application. But we dare not draw a hard line between them. God’s anger is never out of the control of his wisdom and righteousness, and his wrath is never cool or indifferent, but is always a wisely directed fury. The wrath of God is never less than a perfect judicial decree, but is always more than a perfect judicial decree because it is always full of right and fitting fury.
Make sure that you get that last part. Basically what Piper is saying is that God is a perfectly just judge who doesn't JUST render just judgment, but also does it from a disposition filled with anger and indignation! Interesting, huh?
Now can you imagine him REALLY doing the math about God's nature and coming up with the idea that God IS utterly disgusted with sin...but... is NOT angry AT anyone who sins?He'd probably go into breakdown. "No...Bible..is...inerrant...true...God...is...angry...doesn't...make...sense...God...said...I believe...That's...settles...ARRRRRGHH!!!!" Anyways, what I'm saying is that I can see how some people would REALLY struggle with this idea we've been discussing on this thread. It's almost COMMON Christian understanding that God, OF COURSE, gets angry at sinners. I just hope some kind of revolution can happen to offer another perspective...JUST like open theistic theological perspectives are offered in opposition to the longstanding classical theistic perspectives. ***************************** Trosie: (emphasis mine) Mephi, thank you for encourageing me to reframe the way in which I was asking my questions. I believe that taking the perspective you have on this thread would help me considerably in my response to God as Father. The most difficult part in my relating with God as Father has been in the area of anger toward people.
"We do not battle with flesh and blood but with principalities..." From what I have read in these past pages I "think" you are saying that God loves the sinner but hates the sin. God disciplines but does not get angry. I was viewing God's relating with people in the OT as being less loving due to the actions that I interpreted as acts of anger toward people.
Actually, it would be unhealty for a parent to discipline their child out of anger. The loving parent disciplines/corrects their child in order to help grow safely into a well adjusted adult. The discipline is not about the parent's feelings but about what is best for the child. In the same way God did not relate with people out of anger but out of concern and loving correction.Oh, PRAISE HIM! Yes, Trosie, you got me right. I'm really glad I was able to be some help to you. I'm hoping that others would see the very PRACTICAL possibilities for believing that God is NOT angry with sinners. Thanks for your openness and transparency!  ********************************* Don: Wobbling at the edge of the cliff...
What if the OT writers were just doing what everyone else was doing at the time... attributing their mean, angry actions to their god. The christian "leaders" today do it all the time.and earlier, you wrote...
It's interesting how we see the Old Testament writers as sometime seeing God as very different from the "Gods" of those around them, and at the same time seeing God very much the same as those around them. Sometimes I wonder if they were "inspired" emotionally to write but their knowlegde of God was limited.
Yessir. There are some biblical OT scholars that will say this pretty much outright! In "A Theological Introduction to the Old Testament" four OT scholars came together to put together a faithful, yet scholarly critical work examining the theology of the OT. The authors were Bruce C. Birch, Walter Brueggemann (a favorite of mine, as y'all know), Terrence E. Fretheim, and David L. Peterson. www.amazon.com/A-Theological-Introduction-Old-Testament/dp/068706676X/sr=8-1/qid=1157633305/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2968232-0363847?ie=UTF8&s=booksAt any rate, they specifically say, particularly when it comes to the idea of the Conquest, though they use this sense elsewhere, they have three terms...interpretive, theological, ideological. In other words, they say that there must be an "adjudication of high theological claim and pervasive ideological assumption." This ends up saying what YOU are saying, Don. There are just SOME ways that the OT people were doing the same tribalistic "Our-angry-God-is-going-to-conquer-YOU-and-give-us-your-land" ways that all the other ANE peoples were doing. A quote... "The adjudication of high theological claim and pervasive ideological assumptions is a tricky task in any case. Those who are adherents of Judaism or Christianity and who take this text as normative will find here a God who is faithful and generous to Israel, committed to well-being for the faithful, and passionate in defense of the claims of the marginated. At the same time, an alert reader cannot fail to see that these high theological claims are shot through with and dependent upon ignoble propensities. There is no easy resolution to this problem, though in any case the first step is to recognize what is before us in the text. It is perhaps a usual strategy among the faithful to take the "good stuff" and ignore or not even notice the embarrassing elements. It is our judgment, however, that high minded theological affirmation about the God who keeps promises in a material way cannot ever simply disregard what comes with it, so that at best we are left with an uneasy awareness of the compromised foundation upon which such noble claims rest."What I like about this book is that it takes seriously the HUMAN element of the divine/human synergistic work that we have called the Bible. They take seriously that God's Spirit can speak IMPERFECTLY through faithful, yet flawwed people...and that speech CAN be empowering and directive for future faithful generations. As long as we are not WOODEN in our interpretations of Scripture. Given this foundation, it MAKES SENSE to theorize that biblical authors were INDEED inspired by God and wrote as they were inspired...but placed certain ideological claims in there that were consonant with what THEY understood. This is in no way demeaning the authority of the Bible. Anyone who knows some of these scholars KNOW that they take the Bible very seriously, academically and personally in faith. So, Don. Just JUMP off that cliff and come on in. 
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/7/2006 8:36:24 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/7/2006 8:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Come on, y'all. Let's have a SINGALONG!
Everybody sing along...cue the banjo and tamborines...
God's not mad at meeeeeee.
God's not mad at youuuuuu.
God has set me freeeeeeee.
You can be free, tooooooo.
All together now!
(holy rollers drunk in the Spirit...heh)
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/11/2006 8:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
I think what you have articulated here is freeing.
Sweet. 
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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