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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/21/2006 7:49 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Corey said...
One thought I had recently... let me know if it checks out. If ETERNAL conscious torment is true, then the ultimate nature of the universe is dualistic; there will eternally be Good and Evil, Yin/Yang, etc. God keeps punishing because justice has not yet been satisfied; God is eternally unfulfilled.
I think many of the ECT people would probably say they aren't externally punished, their punishment is in the consequences of their chosen separation from God. Isn't this what CS Lewis wrote about?
Corey said...
I don't think this is compatible with the biblical picture.
Yeah, evil continuing on forever doesn't seem compatible with scripture. God said He wouldn't strive with evil men forever and shortened their lives to 120 years.
Saying that God will strive forever trying to win evil people over doesn't appear compatible with scripture.
What about all the verses about destruction, eis tous aionas ton aionon separation, etc?
Look at Jesus' parables about the Kingdom. Only those ready get invited into the wedding feast, the rest are left out in the darkness.
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it.
For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14
Note the contrast between annihilation and life, not between more rewards and fewer rewards.
Note the non-universality of those who receive life. Few < All
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 9/21/2006 7:53:32 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 9/21/2006 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | And I really would like for you to be internally consistent, Laika.
Your view should be the following...with your take.
Unbelievers who are dead and wasted away over the centuries will have their bodies and brains RECONSTRUCTED by God (the Resurrection of the Dead) in such a way that these bodies and brains can withstand ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT in a literal, burning PLACE of fire...where the smoke of torment goes up forever and ever. Remember that, in Revelation, the Second Death takes place AFTER the bodily resurrection of ALL human beings. Some are resurrected into life...others are resurrected to endure the second death in the Lake of Fire. This means that God would RECREATE their human bodies with the necessary durability...SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF BEING ABLE TO ENDURE EVERLASTING TORMENT. They will have brains and bodys that are continually being destroyed, but not consumed.
And this would be done by an all-loving God who supposedly genuinely wants all people to be saved.
You do understand that this is the LOGICAL OUTWORKINGS of your literalist perspective, right?
It's amazing to me that Laika wants to preserve the ETERNALITY of the torment using more literal interpretations of Scripture...but then turn around and go ANNIHILATIONIST with respect to the torment SIMPLY being the existential wrenching of being separated from God...and leaving out all the fire, smoke, burning, and torment FROM those things!
Please...be...consistent.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/21/2006 8:42:30 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/21/2006 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...Corey: I spent a couple decades in the C.S. Lewis camp on this topic, so to some level I'm familiar with it. So then hell isn't a place of punishment, rather it's a self-chosen eternal exile. This doesn't seem to solve the problem of eternal dualism, though. On this view, there eternally remains evil. Perhaps we can say that God's Justice is not eternally frustrated, since he's not the one forcing the seperation, but nonetheless God's ultimate telos (Love, in my view) and victory remain incomplete.
Would you agree that God continues to love those in hell? Like a parent with a self-destructive child would.
The parent can do whatever they can to help the child, even protective custody so they can't physically harm themselves, but in the end the parent can not reach down into the heart of the child and change it, only the child can change their heart. There's NO proof that God has forever to influence a change. "I will not strive with men forever, therefore I will shorten their days".
The game is up when we die. That's when opportunity for faith dies as well. Any choices made "post-mortem", (Lazarus didn't have any choices in that parable) would not be based on faith, "belief in invisible things", but would be totally machivellian choices.
Anyone will take Jesus as Lord to escape destruction or eis tous aionas ton aionon punishment, there's no faith required. Faith is the foundational thing missing from all your universalist arguments. Faith is how we are approved by God. Faith is how we please God, it's impossible to please God without faith. Hebrews 11
So you'd have a bunch of people bobbing in the lake of fire, going, "hmmmm, stay here forever in this flaming *flambe' or believe God exists (He threw me in here) and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him (He didn't throw those believers in here)".
I don't have an opinion on ECT or annihilation or whatever options there are. Universality is not supported by scripture or logic, imho.
Scripture talks about eis tous aionas ton aionon separation and scripture talks about destruction. Take your pick.
* http://whatscookingamerica.net/flambe.htm
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/21/2006 10:37 AM (GMT -6) | | | Laika: Like a parent with a self-destructive child would.
Corey: EXACTLY!!!!! A good parent would "bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things" in love for their child. A loving parent would never give up, never lose hope, never stop pursuing the child's good.
Laika: There's NO proof that God has forever to influence a change. "I will not strive with men forever, therefore I will shorten their days".
Corey: There's NO indication that God MUST give up the chase. What metaphysical reason would there be that God can't outlast a person's stubborn rebellion? I don't think you can say that he MUST quit. Rather, you are using that text to show that God CHOOSES to give up.
But the text doesn't say that God gives up the whole project of reconciliation. It only says that God knew it was best to shorten the probabationary period. It's clear that this earthly environment allows continued deception. But the judgement environment does not, it seems. There will be no deception in hell of, "yeah, this is workin' for me..." Post Edited (Corey) : 9/21/2006 10:49:40 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/21/2006 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...Laika: Like a parent with a self-destructive child would.
Corey: EXACTLY!!!!! A good parent would "bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things" in love for their child. A loving parent would never give up, never lose hope, never stop pursuing the child's good.
The parent can't guarantee their child will turn before they die. And neither can God.
Corey said...
Corey: There's NO indication that God MUST give up the chase. What metaphysical reason would there be that God can't outlast a person's stubborn rebellion? I don't think you can say that he MUST quit. Rather, you are using that text to show that God CHOOSES to give up.
But the text doesn't say that God gives up the whole project of reconciliation. It only says that God knew it was best to shorten the probabationary period. It's clear that this earthly environment allows continued deception. But the judgement environment does not, it seems. There will be no deception in hell of, "yeah, this is workin' for me..."
And thus no opportunity for faith. No "assurance of things hoped for", no "conviction of things not seen", no gaining approval or pleasing God. Totally machiavellian and expedient choices, "does Job fear God for naught?"
Before death, God doesn't torture people into the Kingdom, so why would He do it after the judgement?
Is it impossible for Him to respect the choices people make?
Apply universalism to the parable of the wedding. He's the groom, we're the bride. What if we don't want to be the bride? Is there no restraining order the groom would obey? Will He stalk us forever?
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 9/21/2006 5:22:18 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/21/2006 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | | Laika: The parent can't guarantee their child will turn before they die. And neither can God.
Corey: Agreed. But you'd agree, wouldn't you, that as long as there's any hope, the parent will continue to pursue.
Corey (previously): There will be no deception in hell...
Laika: And thus no opportunity for faith.
Corey: So deception is a necessary component of faith??! No, to be accurate you should say only that some level of ambiguity is required. But it's wrong to equate deception with ambiguity. They're quite different, and this difference is important.
I'm not sure it's actually the case, but let's assume that ambiguity is necessary for faith. Are you so certain that there are no ambiguities in hell? Does the person truly have full awareness of everything entailed in relating rightly to God? It would seem that anything short of omniscience leaves room for ambiguity. What's more, even if there is "head knowledge" of these things, wouldn't you agree that mere knowledge does not equate to a subjectively appropriated personal faith? I described in earlier conversations with you my view that a condemned soul would not necessarily know whether or not reconciliation with God was a viable possibility. It would take great faith, it seems, to believe that even now God could/would make things right again, through Christ's salvific work.
Mere belief in the existance of God ain't no thang -- the demons do that and shudder, as James tells us. Subjective appropriation is key.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/21/2006 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...
I'm not sure it's actually the case, but let's assume that ambiguity is necessary for faith. Are you so certain that there are no ambiguities in hell? Does the person truly have full awareness of everything entailed in relating rightly to God? It would seem that anything short of omniscience leaves room for ambiguity. What's more, even if there is "head knowledge" of these things, wouldn't you agree that mere knowledge does not equate to a subjectively appropriated personal faith? I described in earlier conversations with you my view that a condemned soul would not necessarily know whether or not reconciliation with God was a viable possibility. It would take great faith, it seems, to believe that even now God could/would make things right again, through Christ's salvific work. Post judgement, there would be no ambiguity that God exists Heb. 11:6, that God is punishing you for rejecting His covering of your sin Heb. 11:6, that there isn't a way out, Luke 16:26.......ad infinitum
You make it sound like people are ignorant, not suppressors of the truth, "without excuse". Romans 1:18-20
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 9/21/2006 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika: Post judgement, there would be no ambiguity that God exists Heb. 11:6, that God is punishing you for rejecting His covering of your sin Heb. 11:6, that there isn't a way out, Luke 16:26.......ad infinitum
You make it sound like people are ignorant, not suppressors of the truth, "without excuse". Romans 1:18-20
Corey: It is likely the case, as you've pointed out, that ambiguity about the existance of God is removed post-death. But there may yet be ambiguity that God could/would reward those who seek him, especially as applied personally to one in hell. It would take great faith, it seems, for such a person to believe that God could/would have mercy on them even now.
I agree, wholeheartedly, with scripture that the problem facing us is not primarily ignorance, but rather suppression. It seems that an environment such as hell would be a good remedy to this hardness of heart. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/21/2006 6:08 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...
Corey: It is likely the case, as you've pointed out, that ambiguity about the existance of God is removed post-death. But there may yet be ambiguity that God could/would reward those who seek him, especially as applied personally to one in hell. It would take great faith, it seems, for such a person to believe that God could/would have mercy on them even now.
But what's the attractive, viable alternative?
Here and now, the viable alternatives are attractive enough to keep many away from the Kingdom.
But in hell?
What are the "passing pleasures" of the Lake of Fire?
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/21/2006 7:02 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...The attractive, viable alternative is continued willing to be oneself. Defiance.
Why would that be attractive?
I don't see any objects of pride in that situation.
Enumerate some of the benefits/objects of pride that outweigh the cost.
And how long will a finite human last in an infinite hell?
If you think about it, if you can't countenance the "duality" of eternity, universalism second "worse" behind ECT:
ECT: eternal conscious torture
Uni: conscious torture until finite fuel is expired
Ani: annihilation
I must admit, ignoring scripture, rhetorically people can make a case for ANYTHING. Maybe that's why God gave
us something objective to hold onto.
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/21/2006 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...
Corey: God pursues God's image. I believe that all humans, regardless of their damnation, still hold something of the image of God. If I could figure out how God could NOT love God's image, it would be a lot easier for me to believe that God gives up for good. But love endures all things.
Corey,
God is spirit, the Imago Dai is spirit. As a trichotomist, I contend that the spirit, body and soul is the anatomy of man's constitutional nature. God says he eventually blots out his image in the wicked. God is not in Hell seeking empty jars of clay.
The Wickedness of Humankind:
1 When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.
5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the LORD said, "I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created--people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the sight of the LORD.
Love endures all things but Love is not self seeking either.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/21/2006 7:59:14 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/21/2006 7:17 PM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever" very interesting......
So finite fuel burning in an infinite fire will eventually lose God's image....
or, how much of God's image does ash possess?
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/21/2006 7:30 PM (GMT -6) | |
Laika said...
So finite fuel burning in an infinite fire will eventually lose God's image....
or, how much of God's image does ash possess?
I believe God blots out his image before hell. The hardening of the heart, the solidifying, is part of the process. The remnant is little more then a burnt offering.
The Lord gives and the Lord takes away.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/21/2006 7:34:34 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 9/21/2006 7:33 PM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
Laika said...
So finite fuel burning in an infinite fire will eventually lose God's image....
or, how much of God's image does ash possess?
I believe God blots out his image before hell. The hardening of the heart, the solidifying, is part of the process. The remnant is little more then a burnt offering.
Actually, I *am* starting to get a picture of the universalist god..... he's got a bunch of urns on his mantle.
Call it a pyric victory. <-----------(get it? pyrrhic victory)
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 9/21/2006 7:37:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/21/2006 7:47 PM (GMT -6) | |
Laika said...
Call it a pyric victory. <-----------(get it? pyrrhic victory)
LOL 
Yeah, like the picture of Jim Carrey (god), from "Liar Liar", in the restroom (hell) beating the living daylights (Imago Dei) out of himself.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/21/2006 7:55:16 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/21/2006 9:06 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...Grace is not only understood in negative terms (avoiding God's punishment) but also in positive terms (receiving God's provision). So I don't think it's proper to say that "grace is meaningless without judgment".
Let’s make a distinction between “saving grace” and “prevenient grace”. The latter is how I see God “pursuing” all of mankind and should not to be confused with “saving grace” where only a few choose to accept, there’s a critical difference. Prevenient grace unconditionally rains on the crops of the righteous and unrighteous alike. Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD. - Isaiah 26:10. FAITH is NOT REQUIRED in order to recive the provisions of prevenient grace. The contrary is said of the special gift of salvific grace. It is by grace we’re saved through FAITH. The free gift of saving grace is exercised through faith and faith is a choice to believe that requires, like all free choices, the power of the contrary. And what Scripture has revealed, the “contrary” is "judgment" with a “negative” outcome.
So anyways, I hesitate using the negative term “avoiding God’s punishment”. My preference would be to say it’s the self-imposed consequence of a rebellious act of rejecting God's free gift of saving grace.
It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15 All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God - 2 Corinthians 4
Saving grace is contingent on a deliberate choice to accept ownership of the free gift in order to take possession , if not the free gift is forfeited. "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs. - Jonah 2:8
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/22/2006 6:18:20 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/21/2006 9:14 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
If a person TRULY understands the DEPTH of forgiveness that they've been shown by God, living a life filled with loving grace towards others NATURALLY emerges from that person. If a person TRULY understands the DEPTH of forgiveness that they've been shown by God, living a life filled with loving grace towards others, then they WOULD KNOW IT COMES NOT from SELF but SUPERNATURALLY from the SPIRIT OF GOD.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 9/21/2006 10:31:07 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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