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|  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/17/2006 5:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | I think that it would be helpful to get some perspective on what Christ's sacrifice essentially means.
Here's how I see it...
--------------------------------
You have God the Son as a person of a triune Godhead. This divine personage has eternally existed in perichoretic, all-loving, aesthetically-satisfied bliss. God the Son had never had any ACTUAL OCCASION of subjectively feeling separated from the Father.
Not until the Cross.
Please don't trip on this. Just think it out.
The Scriptures testify that our sins were laid upon him. That Christ "became sin" for us. That Christ suffered the penalty for us. You get the idea...
I suggest that that part of the penalty was experiencing the ramifications of existential despair.
Existential despair...meaning being separated from God and oneself.
The feeling of being ALONE, POWERLESS, ANXIOUS... utter hopelessness and pain.
God the Son...who up till the Cross had NEVER experienced subjective separation from the Father...because of his FULLY HUMAN incarnation...experiences the pain and power of sin. The Incarnated Word felt the subjective despair of being separated from the Father.
This means that God, through God's experience of his contingent expression...for the first time ever...takes upon Godself the pain of SIN. The Son feels the pangs of separation from the Father.
Can we even IMAGINE how deep this feeling of existential despair would be?????
The pain of a human being crucified (which MANY other humans experienced during that time) would NOT...EVEN...TOUCH...this amount of pain and suffering.
It would be the DEEPEST subjective felt existential despair possible.
God would be the ultimate paradoxical being.
Ad intra, God is experiences the ULTIMATE DEPTH of loving socialty possible.
Ad extra, God experiences the ULTIMATE DEPTH of existential despair possible.
This is what's trippy, y'all.
You know how we always say that Christ's sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice?
It really was.
You know how we always say that Christ took the pain of our sin upon himself?
It's true.
In the Son's suffering of separation from the Father though existential despair, God experienced the ULTIMATE DEPTH of existential despair.
NO ONE ELSE but God could have done this. NO ONE ELSE had the capacity to experience the ULTIMATE DEPTH of existential despair...like God.
And why did He do it? Why would anyone experience such hell????
So that WE wouldn't have to experience it!
Jesus paid it all.
Jesus took the pain of sin upon himself...experiencing the ULTIMATE DEPTH of existential despair, it's pain and it's power.
And the DISGUST of God was recognized. Justice was served at the Cross.
As God always knew that it would be. [The Sacrifice of God (Immanuel) was predestined from the foundation of the world, right?]
The loving heart of God absorbed the stinking, putrid puss of sin into itself...
and conquered it.
For our sakes.
But he also resurrected from the dead...
Destroying even the power of death, deterioration and decay...
The ultimate physical sign of despair's cruel grasp.
And do you know what this means?
We are NO LONGER separated from God by any means. The veil has been rent!!! We can boldly stand in the throne of grace because we have been saved by the New Adam!
No matter how separated from God that we feel...it's NOT because we HAVE to feel that way.
WE MOVE AWAY FROM GOD. Not the other way around.
Christ took that pain upon himself so that we wouldn't have to experience the TOTAL ramifications of our actions...which our frail finite selves could never handle. TOTAL ramifications which would be nothing less than an endless existence of existential despair. An eternal existence without hope, health, or life. Eternal conscious torment.But because Jesus "paid it all"...there's no need for eternal conscious torment. The "debt" has been paid...IN FULL. This is not to say that some people won't experience some level of serious pain for their existential despair. They WILL. But... Eternal conscious torment is no longer necessary... FOR ANYONE... and... Eventual universal reconciliation CAN be possible. In short, ladies and gentlemen... God the Son HEALED the SICKNESS of Creation through taking the SICKNESS into Himself...and destroying it through the power of LOVE.How about that? 
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/17/2006 5:54:38 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 9/18/2006 8:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | | I love it!
I still want to reflect and dig deeper into the intuition you expressed on the other thread about despair being related to telos. I wonder how Jesus could despair at this teleological level, since he had such profound awareness of his purpose.
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/18/2006 8:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Corey: I wonder how Jesus could despair at this teleological level, since he had such profound awareness of his purpose.
Jesus didn't despair at a teleological level. He always did what he saw the Father doing...and insofar as this is true, he did not "sin"...or fall into despair. Throughout Jesus' life he always related himself to himself and God RIGHTLY...and in so doing willed to be himself (according to the Father's wishes)...and in so doing, rested in the power of the Creator.
What occurred is that the Son, for the first time in the history of reality, experienced a genuine sense of SEPARATION and ESTRANGMENT from the Father. At that moment, Jesus was NOT "resting in the power" of the Creator. Jesus felt the weight, pain, and power of despair...and this was the ULTIMATE DEPTH of existential despair possible BECAUSE of Jesus being the Son of God. The felt depth of what it MEANS to be separated from God.
THIS is why Gethsemane is so moving. Jesus KNEW this separation was going to occur. THIS was, I believe, the main source of Jesus' pain. Please remember that this is the SAME JESUS who spoke so beautifully about glorifying the Father, being glorified by the Father, and being ONE with the Father (Johannine material) Describing such UNITY with the Father. It is THIS JESUS who experiences separation from God.
There's no way that Jesus' angst in Gethsemane would have been over simply physical death or the process of physically dying. He raised Lazarus to life! He said that he was the life! Fear of death wouldn't have hindered him.
But...
The knowledge that his sacrifice would include FELT SEPARATION from his Father...something NEVER EXPERIENCED in divine history...THIS was almost unbearable for our Lord. The hopelessness. The loss. No wonder Jesus would cry out the way he did on the Cross.
As it should have been.
But his obedience didn't wane. And we have all been saved.
Thank God for the New Adam.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/18/2006 9:01:42 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
   |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 9/18/2006 2:49 PM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said... for the first time in the history of reality, experienced a genuine sense of SEPARATION and ESTRANGMENT from the Father. .
Overall Nice, D.!!!
However...
Here's why Athanasias spoke of the Gospels using ‘partitive exegesis.’
And here's why we need the Nicene Creed too, and the Chalcedon Formula here especially
AD 451
THEREFORE, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the Godbearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
I'd like to make two separate comments on your first post...
First, the suffering -- which is volentary -- began right away to some degree, and stretched his WHOLE life. The Heidelberg Catachism is good in making that point.
Second, while you are good at protecting from the notion that Christ's suffering was only in some abstract humanity, separate from his one person, you still must allow for personal suffering by God that does not change his divinity -- and I'm not sure you've done that.
The "one nature" together of human and divine suffered, but the divinity and the divine "fellowship" (which we really can't define!!! -- which should be our third point)
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 9/18/2006 2:59:09 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 9/18/2006 2:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | | For "D.":
The death of "One of the Holy Trinity in the flesh" was a voluntary act, a voluntary assumption by God of the entire dimension of human tragedy. "There is nothing in Him by compulsion or necessity; everything was free: willingly He was hungry, willingly thirsty, willingly He was frightened, and willingly He died."26 But — and this was the essential difference between the Orthodox and the Aphthartodocetae — this divine freedom of the hypostasis of the Logos did not limit the reality of His human condition: the Lord assumed a mortal humanity at the very moment of the Incarnation, at which time the free divine decision to die had already been made. "He takes a body, a body which is not different from ours," writes Athanasius; "He takes from us a nature similar to ours; and since we all are subject to corruption and death, He delivers His body to death for us."27
The idea that the cross was the purpose of the Incarnation itself was vividly suggested by the Byzantine liturgical texts of the Nativity. The hymnology of the pre-feast (December 20 to 24) is structured according to that of Holy Week, and the humility of Bethlehem is viewed as leading toward Golgotha: "The kings, first fruits of the Gentiles, bring Thee gifts... By myrrh they point to Thy death..." "Born now in the flesh, Thou shalt in the flesh undergo burial and death, and Thou shalt rise again on the third day."28
The question whether the Incarnation would have taken place, had there not been a Fall, never stood at the centre of attention in Byzantium: Byzantine theologians envisaged rather the concrete fact of human mortality: a cosmic tragedy in which God through the Incarnation undertook to become personally — rather, hypostatically — involved. The major and apparently the only exception to this general view is given by Maximus the Confessor for whom the Incarnation and "recapitulation" of all things in Christ is the true "goal" and "aim" of creation; the Incarnation therefore was foreseen and foreordained independently of man’s tragic misuse of his own freedom.29 This view fits in exactly with Maximus’ idea of created "nature" as a dynamic process oriented toward an eschatological goal — Christ the incarnate Logos. As creator, the Logos stands as the "beginning" of creation; and as incarnate, He is also its "end" when all things are going to exist not only "through Him" but "in Him." In order to be "in Christ," creation had to be assumed by God, made "His own;" the Incarnation therefore is a precondition of the final glorification of man independent of man’s sinfulness and corruption.
Given the fallen state of man, the redemptive death of Christ makes this final restoration possible. But the death of Christ is truly redemptive and "life-giving" precisely because it is the death of the Son of God in the flesh (i.e., in virtue of the hypostatic union). In the East, the cross is not envisaged so much as the punishment of the just one, which "satisfies" a transcendent Justice requiring a retribution for man’s sins. As Georges Florovsky rightly puts it, "the death of the Cross was effective not as a death of an Innocent One but as the death of the Incarnate Lord."30 The point was not to satisfy a legal requirement but to vanquish the frightful cosmic reality of death, which held humanity under its usurped control and pushed it into the vicious circle of sin and corruption. And, as Athanasius of Alexandria has shown in his polemics against Arianism, God alone is able to vanquish death because He "alone has immortality" (1 Tm 6:16). Just as original sin did not consist in an inherited guilt, so redemption was not primarily a justification but a victory over death. Byzantine liturgy, following Gregory of Nyssa, uses the image of the devil swallowing a hook hidden by the body of Emmanuel; the same idea is found in a pseudo-Chrysostomic sermon read during the liturgy of the paschal night: "Hell received a body and encountered God; it received mortal dust and met Heaven face to face."
Summarizing this patristic concept of death and resurrection, in the light of the Christological statements of the fifth and sixth centuries, John of Damascus writes,
Although Christ died as man, and His holy soul was separated from His most pure body, His divinity remained with both the soul and the body and continued inseparable from either. Thus, the one hypostasis was not divided into two hypostases, for from the beginning both body and soul existed in the hypostasis of the Word. Although at the hour of death body and soul were separated from each other, yet each of them was preserved having the one hypostasis of the Word. Therefore, the one hypostasis of the Word was an hypostasis as of the Word; so also of the body and of the soul, for neither the body nor the soul ever had any proper hypostasis other than that of the Word. The hypostasis, then, of the Word is ever one, and there were never two hypostases of the Word. Accordingly, the hypostasis of Christ is ever one. And though the soul is separated from the body in space, yet they remain hypostatically united through the Word.31
The triduum of Easter — the three days when Christ’s humanity suffered the common fate of man, yet remained mysteriously en-hypostasized in the one divine hypostasis of the Logos — was graphically expressed in the traditional Byzantine iconography of the Resurrection: Christ trampling down the gates of Sheol and lifting Adam and Eve back to life. Better than any conceptual language and better also than the image of any particular event or aspect of the mystery — such as the empty tomb or even the crucifixion itself — this icon points to the dynamic, soteriological dimension of Christ’s death: God’s intrusion into the domain usurped by the devil and the breaking up of his control over humanity. The same mystery of hypostatic unity which remained unbroken in death itself is expressed in the Byzantine liturgy of Holy Week; on Good Friday, at vespers, at the very moment when Christ gives up the spirit, the first hymns of the Resurrection are beginning to resound: "Myrrh is fitting for the dead, but Christ has shown Himself free from corruption." The hidden yet decisive triumph over death permeates the liturgical celebration of Holy Saturday: "Though the temple of Thy body was destroyed in the hour of the passion, yet even then one was the hypostasis of Thy Divinity and Thy flesh."32 One could discover in these texts the ultimate, soteriological reason why Cyril’s theopaschite formula becomes a criterion of orthodoxy in sixth-century Byzantine theology: death was vanquished precisely because God Himself had tasted of it hypostatically in the humanity which He had assumed. This is the paschal message of Christianity.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/byzantine_theology_j_meyendorf.htm (o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/18/2006 4:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | POW: First, the suffering -- which is volentary -- began right away to some degree, and stretched his WHOLE life. The Heidelberg Catachism is good in making that point.
I'd agree. I've said something like this before elsewhere. (In some post describing WHY I didn't like "Passion of the Christ)
*****************************
POW: Second, while you are good at protecting from the notion that Christ's suffering was only in some abstract humanity, separate from his one person, you still must allow for personal suffering by God that does not change his divinity -- and I'm not sure you've done that. The "one nature" together of human and divine suffered, but the divinity and the divine "fellowship" (which we really can't define!!! -- which should be our third point)
That's what the AD INTRA and AD EXTRA divisions are for. Christ is ONE PERSON with TWO NATURES in that Christ is the intensification of God's contingent expression into HUMAN experience. (I know the language sounds forensic...but it really does make sense) Christ is FULLY DIVINE in that Christ perfectly represents and incarnates the ad intra existence of God [Christ is the exact represetation of God, remember)...and Christ is FULLY HUMAN in that Christ is a contingent human existent that did not HAVE to be! Christ's Incarnation was NOT a necessity...but the consummate, yet contingent expression of God's character that was freely chosen.
No other being fits this bill.
No other being is FULLY divine and FULLY human.
We also have to understand that God's suffering in God's contingent expressive experience does NOT take away in ANY regard from the ad intra essential existence that makes God who God is. God "suffering" in God's contingent expression doesn't change God's self-relation ad intra.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 9/18/2006 4:08:57 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/18/2006 4:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | John of Damascus: Although Christ died as man, and His holy soul was separated from His most pure body, His divinity remained with both the soul and the body and continued inseparable from either. Thus, the one hypostasis was not divided into two hypostases, for from the beginning both body and soul existed in the hypostasis of the Word. Although at the hour of death body and soul were separated from each other, yet each of them was preserved having the one hypostasis of the Word. Therefore, the one hypostasis of the Word was an hypostasis as of the Word; so also of the body and of the soul, for neither the body nor the soul ever had any proper hypostasis other than that of the Word. The hypostasis, then, of the Word is ever one, and there were never two hypostases of the Word. Accordingly, the hypostasis of Christ is ever one. And though the soul is separated from the body in space, yet they remain hypostatically united through the Word.
If I may attempt to restate this in my terms...
Christ's corporeal and incorporeal aspects are BOTH aspects of the ONE intensification of God's contingent expression into human experience. There is never any point at which one can say that Christ's human physiology was NOT truly a dimension of God's contingent expression into human experience. (This is what Docetism would say!) God truly DID have authentic human experience BODILY in Christ..as an incarnation. And in this BODY the fulness of God dwelt.
Just because Christ's corporeal and incorporeal aspects may have separated for a time (ie. physical death), it was NEVER the case that either dimension of Christ's reality ever CEASED being of God's contingent expression into human experience.
Christ's death did not turn him into being "of two hypostases".
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 9/18/2006 5:24 PM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said... POW: First, the suffering -- which is volentary -- began right away to some degree, and stretched his WHOLE life. The Heidelberg Catachism is good in making that point.
I'd agree. I've said something like this before elsewhere. (In some post describing WHY I didn't like "Passion of the Christ)
*****************************
POW: Second, while you are good at protecting from the notion that Christ's suffering was only in some abstract humanity, separate from his one person, you still must allow for personal suffering by God that does not change his divinity -- and I'm not sure you've done that. The "one nature" together of human and divine suffered, but the divinity and the divine "fellowship" (which we really can't define!!! -- which should be our third point)
That's what the AD INTRA and AD EXTRA divisions are for. Christ is ONE PERSON with TWO NATURES in that Christ is the intensification of God's contingent expression into HUMAN experience. (I know the language sounds forensic...but it really does make sense) Christ is FULLY DIVINE in that Christ perfectly represents and incarnates the ad intra existence of God [Christ is the exact represetation of God, remember)...and Christ is FULLY HUMAN in that Christ is a contingent human existent that did not HAVE to be! Christ's Incarnation was NOT a necessity...but the consummate, yet contingent expression of God's character that was freely chosen.
No other being fits this bill.
No other being is FULLY divine and FULLY human.
We also have to understand that God's suffering in God's contingent expressive experience does NOT take away in ANY regard from the ad intra essential existence that makes God who God is. God "suffering" in God's contingent expression doesn't change God's self-relation ad intra.
Well put. Wow. You are good with language. (o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 9/18/2006 5:27 PM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said... John of Damascus: Although Christ died as man, and His holy soul was separated from His most pure body, His divinity remained with both the soul and the body and continued inseparable from either. Thus, the one hypostasis was not divided into two hypostases, for from the beginning both body and soul existed in the hypostasis of the Word. Although at the hour of death body and soul were separated from each other, yet each of them was preserved having the one hypostasis of the Word. Therefore, the one hypostasis of the Word was an hypostasis as of the Word; so also of the body and of the soul, for neither the body nor the soul ever had any proper hypostasis other than that of the Word. The hypostasis, then, of the Word is ever one, and there were never two hypostases of the Word. Accordingly, the hypostasis of Christ is ever one. And though the soul is separated from the body in space, yet they remain hypostatically united through the Word.
If I may attempt to restate this in my terms...
Christ's corporeal and incorporeal aspects are BOTH aspects of the ONE intensification of God's contingent expression into human experience. There is never any point at which one can say that Christ's human physiology was NOT truly a dimension of God's contingent expression into human experience. (This is what Docetism would say!) God truly DID have authentic human experience BODILY in Christ..as an incarnation. And in this BODY the fulness of God dwelt.
Just because Christ's corporeal and incorporeal aspects may have separated for a time (ie. physical death), it was NEVER the case that either dimension of Christ's reality ever CEASED being of God's contingent expression into human experience.
Christ's death did not turn him into being "of two hypostases".
While I could be wrong -- for my own lesser abilities -- This sounds very good.
Wow again.
Good job, Sir.
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  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 9/19/2006 6:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 9/19/2006 7:52 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/19/2006 8:28 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks for the article, POW.
Here's a good section...
"From what Christ himself says of it, who was not wont to magnify things beyond the truth. He says, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful even unto death." Matt. 26:38. What language can more strongly express the most extreme degree of sorrow? His soul was not only "sorrowful," but "exceeding sorrowful;" and not only so, but because that did not fully express the degree of his sorrow, he adds, "even unto death;" which seems to intimate that the very pains and sorrows of hell, of eternal death, had got hold upon him. The Hebrews were wont to express the utmost degree of sorrow that any creature could be liable to by the phrase, the shadow of death. Christ had now, as it were, the shadow of death brought over his soul by the near view which he had of that bitter cup that was now set before him.
Praise our Lord for his obedient choice of self-sacrifice! "All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/19/2006 8:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Confession time.
I never ever thought that I would fall so in love with the Triune God.
Never.
I never saw so much beauty in God before.
Never.
Some "theologian", huh? I confess this to my shame. But I'm so happy I'm here. My soul crys out "Hallelujah". Let everything that has breath, Praise God! 
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 9/19/2006 9:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | I'm bothered by one thing...
It is one thing to say that Christ experienced the ultimate dispair, but it is another thing to additionally burden the dispair with a "payed in full" judgement for "the soul that sins shall die"..."the wages of sin is death." Yes, Christ suffered ultimately, but suffering dispair does not take care of the injustice of sin. I happen to believe that there is something to the penal requirement of sin; justice must be administered. Christ's death on the cross, therefore, doesn't have to revolve around penality--it can, in fact, be the center of God's love, God's glory and God's desire to destroy man's dispair--but there must be awareness that penality is an issue.
Whatever Christ suffered in dispair, He suffered for all personal beings. And whatever Christ suffered for in death, He suffered for injustice.
Starkman My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/19/2006 9:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | Starkman: It is one thing to say that Christ experienced the ultimate dispair, but it is another thing to additionally burden the dispair with a "payed in full" judgement for "the soul that sins shall die"..."the wages of sin is death." Yes, Christ suffered ultimately, but suffering dispair does not take care of the injustice of sin. I happen to believe that there is something to the penal requirement of sin; justice must be administered. Christ's death on the cross, therefore, doesn't have to revolve around penality--it can, in fact, be the center of God's love, God's glory and God's desire to destroy man's dispair--but there must be awareness that penality is an issue.
Whatever Christ suffered in dispair, He suffered for all personal beings. And whatever Christ suffered for in death, He suffered for injustice.
How is "justice" not administered? In Christ's sacrifice, God's disgust towards despair (sin) is FULLY revealed. Death and separation are the ramifications of despair. And if EVERY BEING who despairs would have to endure the TOTAL revelation of God's disgust towards despair, we would ALL be separated from God eternally. (That's the closest thing that could happen)
But...
God endured this "penalty"in Christ. Such that no other being would HAVE TO experience the total ramifications of their despair. Jesus "paid it all" Propitiation AND expiation occur.
Injustice, my friend, is a RAMIFICATION of existential despair. In suffering the total ramifications of despair, Jesus "paid" the ultimate cost of injustice.
See what I'm saying? This ISN'T eliminating any reckoning of "injustice" at all.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 9/19/2006 9:41 AM (GMT -6) |   |
MephEternal said...Starkman: It is one thing to say that Christ experienced the ultimate dispair, but it is another thing to additionally burden the dispair with a "payed in full" judgement for "the soul that sins shall die"..."the wages of sin is death." Yes, Christ suffered ultimately, but suffering dispair does not take care of the injustice of sin. I happen to believe that there is something to the penal requirement of sin; justice must be administered. Christ's death on the cross, therefore, doesn't have to revolve around penality--it can, in fact, be the center of God's love, God's glory and God's desire to destroy man's dispair--but there must be awareness that penality is an issue.
Whatever Christ suffered in dispair, He suffered for all personal beings. And whatever Christ suffered for in death, He suffered for injustice.How is "justice" not administered? In Christ's sacrifice, God's disgust towards despair (sin) is FULLY revealed. Death and separation are the ramifications of despair. And if EVERY BEING who despairs would have to endure the TOTAL revelation of God's disgust towards despair, we would ALL be separated from God eternally. (That's the closest thing that could happen) But... God endured this "penalty"in Christ. Such that no other being would HAVE TO experience the total ramifications of their despair. Jesus "paid it all" Propitiation AND expiation occur. Injustice, my friend, is a RAMIFICATION of existential despair. In suffering the total ramifications of despair, Jesus "paid" the ultimate cost of injustice. See what I'm saying? This ISN'T eliminating any reckoning of "injustice" at all.
No, no. I wasn't saying you weren't eliminating any reckoning of injustice. What I was saying was that Christ's suffering of dispair does not address the injustice on the penal level. It simply doesn't. I mean, Christ could suffer all day, all night and so on, but that has nothing to do with atoning for the breaking of the law, or of sin, and death as a result. Yes, dispair results in death because of sin, but Christ's suffereing ultimate dispair does not address the particular penal aspect of atonement. I can't see how any degree of Christ's suffering is somehow so great that it "pays" for our sins (and, again, I wasn't saying you were denying or eliminating this).
Sorry for not being more clear.
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/19/2006 9:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | Starkman: No, no. I wasn't saying you weren't eliminating any reckoning of injustice. What I was saying was that Christ's suffering of dispair does not address the injustice on the penal level. It simply doesn't. I mean, Christ could suffer all day, all night and so on, but that has nothing to do with atoning for the breaking of the law, or of sin, and death as a result. Yes, dispair results in death because of sin, but Christ's suffereing ultimate dispair does not address the particular penal aspect of atonement. I can't see how any degree of Christ's suffering is somehow so great that it "pays" for our sins (and, again, I wasn't saying you were denying or eliminating this).
Sorry for not being more clear.
I think that Christ's suffering does address the penal-substitution aspect of atonement.
Think about something. God's glory is God's self-revelation. So, God revealing his disgust of sin IS glorious. (This is where people like Edwards and Piper ALMOST have it right) When sin exists, God would be working AGAINST God's own glorification to NOT demonstrate, in a real way, God's utter disgust for sin. Said another way, God would NOT be maximizing his glory without some kind of demonstration of His character against the heinous unreality of despair (sin). And it would be totally just of God to allow all despairing beings to suffer the ramifications of their despairing. We would all be lost.
However,
Christ became the SACRIFICIAL LAMB for us in our place. The innocent, despair-free Incarnate Word suffered incredibly more than any DESERVING sinner should. And in doing so, Christ reconciled humanity to God. The disgust of God was displayed and abated...by God himself in Christ.
Sacrifice. Propitiation. Reconciliation.
This is penal-substitutionary atonement...down the line.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 9/19/2006 12:13 PM (GMT -6) |   | Something else that we should LEARN from this as Christ's followers:
Firmly deciding to follow one's life calling from God...to WILL to do God's will...could end up with you looking like a total failure sometimes. It can cause you a lot of misunderstanding from others, painful ostracism, and even death. It takes some serious fortitude to remain obedient in a world socialized into disobedience.
THIS is why we must completely die to ourselves and take on Christ's yoke upon ourselves.
If we don't understand the depth of God's victory here...and the true power of the Reign of God to change lives, we will ever fall into problematic thinking that the much of the pain that we experience as Christ's followers is indication that something's wrong...that we are not in God's will...instead of the opposite. Christ said that we would have tribulation in the world. This was no idle threat! People fear what they don't understand...and they grow to hate what they fear. People that live outside of the world's fragmented socialized craziness will look at FREE people...as being menaces in some way. To live like Christ is to PUT ON the mantle of suffering...because obedience in a land of disobedience has ramifications for the diligent one.
But...
Christ assured us that he had overcome the world. And that was BEFORE the Cross and Resurrection!!The seed had been planted. The Reign of God was among his people and would be empowered by the Holy Spirit.
As followers of the Lord, we must be prepared to look like "fools"...just like Paul talked about. We must be willing to surrender all and say to God...from the depths of our souls...
I...AM...YOURS!
This is what Christ did in Gethsemane.
This is what we can do daily...as we die to ourselves daily.
Following Christ does NOT entail escapism, as some would think. Those who follow Christ are VERY realistic about the satanic, despair-conducive forces in this world...and they engage those powers by living in the power of the Holy Spirit and by having an identity FIRMLY ROOTED in who God is in Christ.
And they are JUST as realistic about the victory of God and the spoils of that universal victory!
This is why Paul could say what he did in Romans 8.
-------------------- Romans 8:18-39 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparingwith the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then can condemn? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. -------------------------------
In willing to will what God wills...in giving ourselves completely to God...we GAIN more than we could ever lose. We lose our "lives" and gain true life.
SO..
Belonging to God...heart, mind, and body...does NOT mean that one will live a life of good tidings and niceties. It could mean a hard life of pain, suffering, and rejection. But the best is always yet to come.
We learn all this from Jesus...the obedient Second Adam.
Just a thought for us.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
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  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 9/19/2006 7:28 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 9/19/2006 7:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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