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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Go to Hell, Satan! | Forum Quick Jump
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/7/2006 9:37 AM (GMT -6) |   |
TGB said...
Tom: Is the major premise of UR God’s love? Absolutely… What would you offer as a more fundamental premise? I’m all ears. Was John just being emotional when he said “God is love”?
Mark: In another John is the first premise and in one John is the conclusion.
Tom: I don’t understand. I mean, I can’t make heads or tails of your answer. In “another John” is the first premise? In “one John” is the conclusion? I’m completely lost.
I thought my question was pretty simple. You criticize UR for adopting as its most fundamental premise the belief that God is love, as if making it fundamental to anything is some kind of emotionalism. I agree ‘God is love’ is our fundamental premise, and I’m surprise you criticize such a premise. ‘God is love’ is clearly a biblical truth. It’s clearly not pure emotionalism (unless John was being purely emotional when he said it). And I can’t think of any more appropriate basis upon which to proceed with anything we want to say about God than ‘God is love’. But there might be good evidence in the Bible or elsewhere that “God is love” isn’t fundamental. That there’s another “God is ______” sort of claim in the Bible that’s more fundamental.
I’m all ears, Mark. If not ‘God is love’, then what would you suggest we adopt as the fundamental premise about God?
Some ninety plus times Jesus says “I tell you the truth” but what’s most profound, He is the Truth. Multiple times we read he is the Truth, opposed to never once saying I’m love. If we look at 2nd John 4 where it states “God is love” it is in mentioned of the Trinity, it’s a clear example of how believers should treat each other. It is also made clear, our salvation and redemption is through Jesus, the Truth and not through the Godhead, love. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.- John 14:6 To know the Truth is to know the Father as well. That’s the only ticket, emotional whining doesn’t cut it nothing else cuts it.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 10/7/2006 9:47:14 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/7/2006 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I acknowledge the capacity of three persons of the Godhead to possess emotions, his longsuffering and that of his creation affirms this. But that’s not the issue. Anything outside of a deterministic version of UR does not end the suffering; to the contrary, it prolongs it indefinitely until all choose God. In fact, there is no eternal paradise experience for those of us that abide in Christ, not as long as creation continues to mourn in labor pains, eternally waiting on satan (and Reitan’s pennies) to cash out.
No, the father of lies will be gone forever, for there is no truth in him. The new earth is not about how Satan makes his way in, to the contrary, it’s about how God fully makes the truth of his way into our new world, his new creation earth. The fate of evil is a mute point since it can’t exist in the full Light of Truth. All across the universe and though out the cosmos, encompassing every remote dwelling, the presence of our Host will reside, consecrating every new born heart, forever sealed as an eternal child of God.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/7/2006 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...Mark- Are you telling me we agree?! Ahhhh! Yaaay!  Yes Tom, the Spirit of Truth is at work in the world.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/7/2006 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Mark:
I acknowledge the capacity of three persons of the Godhead to possess emotions, his longsuffering and that of his creation affirms this. But that’s not the issue. Anything outside of a deterministic version of UR does not end the suffering; to the contrary, it prolongs it indefinitely until all choose God. In fact, there is no eternal paradise experience for those of us that abide in Christ, not as long as creation continues to mourn in labor pains, eternally waiting on satan (and Reitan’s pennies) to cash out. No, the father of lies will be gone forever, for there is no truth in him. The new earth is not about how Satan makes his way in, to the contrary, it’s about how God fully makes the truth of his way into our new world, his new creation earth. The fate of evil is a mute point since it can’t exist in the full Light of Truth. All across the universe and though out the cosmos, encompassing every remote dwelling, the presence of our Host will reside, consecrating every new born heart, forever sealed as an eternal child of God.
Mark, it seems that you are an annihilationist. And that's wonderful.
We disagree on that end state of demons. But we do CRITICALLY agree on the following things:
1) It is only by the power of Christ's sacrifice and divine grace that ANYONE is saved.
2) Everything that is not of God will be eliminated from the cosmic scene at the Consummation.
3) The pain of divine wrath is tied to the ontological freedom that creaturely sentient beings have.
I think that we agree more than we disagree.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's nature." -- the new mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/7/2006 10:02 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Through the Scarlet Lamb we have been saved and by the Wrath of the Lamb we find the solemn promise of victory, conquering over all evil and those that follow in wickedness. The prince of darkness will find no refuge in the all-inclusive Truth and Light of God. The parasite of all that is good will be circumcised throughout the entire span of creation. No one will be captured and interrogated with a serum of artificial truth, for all prisoners will scatter into the abyss of utter darkness. All that is of evil is of a lie and no lie can stand in face of Divine Truth. As darkness is the diminishment of Light, likewise, any and all lies are the privation, the partial absence, the diminishment of Divine Truth. Enduring love will reign, nourished by the endless fountains of living water, Truth.
- Mark
John 18:36-37 "Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.' 'You are a king, then!' said Pilate. Jesus answered, 'You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.'"
John 6:47 "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 10/9/2006 10:11:00 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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