 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/16/2006 12:35 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/16/2006 5:46 PM (GMT -6) | |
Namaste said...Great stuff, POW. I really love it. Thanks for sharing! Brother, could you give me your personal take (and other resources) on THEOSIS. I've become very, very interested in this concept of late.
Would it be a cop-out to just give you two sites?
My son is doing that report on Clement of Alexandria, who makes that comment, and is repeated by others, of whom Athanasias is prominant. Its biblical too.
I'll cite Robert Rakestraw's JETS article, and the GO's Fr. Anthony M. Coniaris
(Since the highschool teacher went to Covenant College for BA and Wheaton for MS, we will be relying heavily on Rakestraw's Evangelical scent!!!)
FIRST, CONIARIS.....
-
Theosis is a beautiful word, but what does it say to those who are trying to ... Theosis has everything to say to struggling humanity. ... theosis.riewe.com/theosis2.htm - 35k - Cached - More from this site
-
Plain Talks on a Major Doctrine of Orthodox Christianity, the Church started in 33AD at Pentacost with unbroken succession. ... Theosis (1) X The Purpose of ... theosis.riewe.com - 26k - Cached - More from this site
THEN RAKESTRAW -- HIS ARTICLE IS ALSO ON HIS BETHEL SEM SITE.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/16/2006 5:52 PM (GMT -6) | | | PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO THE LAST THREE LINKS (As your affection for hinduism was showing quite some time ago, before you changed your name!!!)
SEE THOSE LAST THREE.
.
THIS IS BY GRACE.
.
A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EASTERN AND WESTERN IS THAT EASTERN DOES NOT SEEM TO TALK about "ARRIVING.? JUST THE OPPOSITE. EVEN PAUL DID NOT STAY IN THE THIRD HEAVEN.... THEOSIS IS A POTENTIAL, IS ACHIEVED BY SOME, BUT IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC ELEVATOR-STOP-SWITCH. ITS "NOT A CHANGE IN US BUT IS A CHANGE IN OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, THAT DOES INVOLVE THE WHOLE US.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/16/2006 6:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Just talking this through...from my perspective...
1. Theosis occurs when a human being wholly participates in the "life of God" through transforming interaction with the Holy Spirit in the context of Christ's Body such that the Living Christ is formed within her moment-by-moment. As a result of theosis, two things happen...
a) she is relieved of her despair (illumination of the "nous" )
and
b) she is reflective of divine grace, love, truth, and power (God's contingent expressive activity)
--------------------------------------
2.The source of theosis is NOT God's essential existence (God's essence) but is God's contingent expressive activity (God's energies) in the form of divine GRACE. As we partake in the knowledge of God in Jesus (Divine incarnation via intensification of God's contingent expression into human experience) through participation in the life of Christ's Body (the Church). In other words, we NEVER become God. That's not possible, for a variety of reasons. We become divinized in that we participate in the divine contingent expressive activity (God's revelatory activity)...and we are growing into the God-Human union, Jesus. I like the analogy about how when a piece of metal is placed into a fire that it takes on the energetic properties of the fire (light and heat) WITHOUT failing to be metal. In like manner, humanity doesn't fail being humanity as it grows more and more reflective of divine grace. Humanity is not annihilated by divinity in theosis; divinity brings the fullness of humanity out...as Christ is formed in us.
--------------------------------------
3. Within theosis, there is an synergistic, yet ASSYMETRICAL relationship with respect to our rational/volitional activity and the grace of God. God's contingent expressive activity is ALWAYS previous...and it is the empowering means and the mode by which our rational/volitional activity can actually will towards becoming unified with God.
--------------------------------------
4. Human perfection is seen in terms of divinization process. In other words, there is never an "arrival point" here in this life; there is only an accurate TRAJECTORY by which theosis is lived in. This "accurate trajectory" is the direction of growing experiential knowledge of God as we enter communion with Christ and His Body. This dispositional posture deals with our internalized self-understanding in relationship to God, where we grow in humility, honesty, and gratitude before God. (SK)
Some quotes from the stuff POW posted:
Human Perfection is not the state of "having arrived." Only God has arrived. Only God is perfect in this sense. Human perfection consists in a constant growing toward perfection, a constant journey from the image of God to the likeness of God, a constant "becoming" as St. Gregory of Nyssa says when he speaks of "the eternal discovery of the eternal growing."
St. Gregory Palamas believed that even in the age to come, the saints' vision of God would not be static. He writes,
"Clearly it will develop infinitely... The saints, communing in the grace of God and rendered through that communion more and more able to contain the divine radiance, will receive grace upon grace from God Himself, its infinite and unfailing source."
Orthodox Christians, for example, are named after saints because once we are baptized, achieving sainthood (which is a fruit of theosis) becomes our potential and our goal.
Fr. Thomas Hopko writes,
"St. Gregory said that there are two differences between God and us: 'God is the archetype and we are the image'; 'God is the Being, the Super Being, and we are the becoming,' that is, 'God is an inexhaustible possibility of growth.' Therefore, the human spirit is as inexhaustible as the Being of God because it is created in the image of God. The growth in perfection is, thus, the human perfection.
It is not as if, 'keep on trying and some day you will be perfect,' but Gregory of Nyssa said, when you try, when you are growing, then you are perfect. Then you are as perfect as a human can be, because the growth is perfection, the movement toward perfection, is in fact what it means for the human to be perfect... Whatever stage you reach, there is literally an infinite possibility for growth still before you. And according to the Fathers, this goes on for all eternity, even in the Kingdom of God. That is the character of what it means to be created in the image and likeness of God."
Interestingly enough, this view REALLY squares with a process view of spirituality and the self.
--------------------------------------
5. I'd like to suggest that, within theosis, there can be an ultimate intensity of beautiful experience via our appreciation of internal communion between our spirits and the Holy Spirit of Christ, such that the desire for aesthetic appreciation is SATIATED, moment-by-moment, by this interaction. In other words, the communion is so deep that all desire that the human being has for aesthetic appreciation (the quest for meaning and significance, inner harmony, etc) is completely and continually quelled by one's continuous relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit. From this aesthetically-satisfying ultimate intensity comes literally an INFINITE amount of ways to FREELY EXPRESS this ultimate intensity of loving unity to the world and to FREELY PARTICIPATE IN (and grow from) the contexts that we find ourselves in. THIS is why the growth potential is INFINITE.
******************************
Thoughts, POW?
Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/16/2006 7:01:20 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/16/2006 8:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Wait a friggin minute.
Hold up just a second...
Is THIS what I'm going through?
Is what I've been describing on these "testifying" threads...
...a vocalization of the subjective experiences
...of a person experiencing the initial stages of THEOSIS?
As Neo would say...
"Whoa!"
Tom, what do YOU think, man??
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/16/2006 8:08 PM (GMT -6) | | From home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/grace3.html
The Process of Theosis
God has predestined all the elect to divinization. Theosis is not a special achievement for a "chosen elite", nor does it involve participation in arcane rituals or reception of secret gnosis. There is nothing occult about our divinization; it is simply salvation in full bloom, the natural culmination of our life in Christ.
Divinization begins at Baptism, when God-as-Uncreated Grace elevates the soul by means of sanctifying grace, making her a partaker in the divine nature. The devout soul will grow in grace and deepen her relationship with God through prayer, the Mass, fasting, alsmgiving, works of mercy, devout use of sacramentals, etc. If she practices contemplative prayer she may experience a foretaste of theosis in the "unitive state", the highest state of prayer and the closest one can come to full divinization in this life.
Yet even the unitive state cannot compare with the Beatific Vision, the immediate knowledge of God which the angels and saints enjoy in heaven, and which we may enjoy, God willing, if we persevere in Grace. Since creatures cannot naturally contemplate Divinity, God elevates our minds by means of the light of glory and then unites our elevated intellects directly to the Divine Nature, so that we may see God "face-to-face".
Our intimate union with God will enable us to participate to a limited degree in God's own Knowledge of creation. We will perceive in God the mysteries of the faith, the divine plan for our salvation, and the lives of our loved ones on earth. We, like the rest of the saints, will be able to hear any prayers they address to us and can pray for their needs. And since our divinized wills will be in perfect conformity with the Will of God, we will pray according to God's will for them (I John 5:14-15).
Since the divinized always act according to God's will, their actions are not merely their own, for God works in them "both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). Thus their actions have a certain "divine" quality. Even as "the actions of Christ are both divine and human, theandric actions, so those of the just man are Godlike, performed at once by God and by man" 15.
(This does not mean that God overrides or replaces the creature's will, as the Quietists thought. It means that the will of a divinized person submits to and perfectly conforms to the Divine Will. It still exists and acts; the Divine Will neither annihilates nor renders it passive. Nor does the limited participation in God's Knowledge make the creature omniscient, for it is only a partial participation. A divinized soul only comprehends that which pertains to herself and to her place in the Divine Plan; the infinite Mystery of God's Nature remains incomprehensible to her finite mind.)
The deified soul is filled with God, permeated with Divine Light, Life, Power, Glory and Love. Yet no confusion or change occcurs between her created substance and the Uncreated Substance of God.Though in intimate contact they remain distinct, so that the creature may enjoy the Beauty of God without the violation of her nature or selfhood.
The Church Fathers compared theosis to the casting of metal in a furnace. As the metal will take on the color and heat of the fire while remaining metal, so the divinized soul radiates the Glory of God and resembles the Holy One as closely as a creature possibly can, yet she remains a creature, essentially distinct in both nature and person.
But theosis will not only affect the soul. At the resurrection the divinized soul will rejoin her former body which, now glorified and incorruptable, will be divinized with the soul and both will enjoy the bliss of Heaven forever.
----------------
TOM??
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/16/2006 8:12 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/16/2006 10:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Prayers by the Lake
|
Prayers by the Lake - Bishop Nikolai ( Velimirovic ) - Molitve na jezeru - Vladika. Translated and Annotated by: Rt. Rev. Archimandrite Todor Mika, STM and ...
www.sv-luka.org/praylake/index.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
Worth the trouble. |
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/17/2006 7:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for that, POW. I've been reading over some of the Prayers by the Lake.
Ok, siblings. I've been reading like crazy all night...and things are starting to make sense.
Unceasing Prayer
www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=194
The Jesus Prayer
www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=195
Hesychasm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
Theosis
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis
On Humility: "I'm Glad That I'm a Nobody: A Positive Psychology of Humility
www.meaning.ca/articles/presidents_column/humility_nov03.htm
(This is HUGE for me. God has done MASSIVE work on this! I've been discovering the HEALTHY REALISM in humility like I never have before! It just makes SENSE seriously. Due to my past abusive history and the narcissistic personality dysfunction that came from it, genuine humility has always been very hard for me. My mind functionally equated humility with humiliation because my childhood and early teenage years was steeped in internalized pain and humiliation of various types. Moreover, I was taught in my church and household that humility was SELF-ABASEMENT...which just compounded my emotional issues. There have been many people who've thought that I've just been some kind of arrogant a$$, and I know that I have been. I never wanted that. I always prayed that I could be meek like Jesus. I really wanted people to know how much I was hurting...how non-existent my sense of self-worth really was...but it was hard to do that. Imagine having a moderate form of NPD and ADHD. But not even THERAPY has been anywhere near helpful for me as connecting with God as God has allowed me too.
To anyone out there who is struggling emotionally in their faith, God can free you, yo! God can TRULY make a way when human beings say there is NO WAY!! Believe in God's undefeatable love and gracious power! Believe it!!)
Holy Wisdom: Directions for the Prayer of Contemplation
(This deals with the 3 "Ways": Purgative, Illuminative, and Unitive)
www.ccel.org/ccel/baker/holy_wisdom.vii.ii.viii.html
State or Way (Purgative, Illuminative, and Unitive)
www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm
-----------------------------
It would appear that God's grace working in me has lead me to a place that I'm experiencing some aspects of the Unitive Way. Obviously, what I'm now experiencing has been a part of the Church for some time now. I mean, I knew this somewhat...but I guess that I automatically ASSUMED that such mystical experiences would never happen to me...so I never even bothered to compare my experiences with the Christian mystics of antiquity. (Sheesh...talk about a lack of perspective!  ) I can't tell you how GREAT that makes me feel! There's something to put language to my inner experience! 
ALL Praise, Glory, and Honor to the Holy One...who heals our sicknesses...and brings us to his marvelous Light!
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/17/2006 7:20:12 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/17/2006 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Von B had it goin' on...for real!
Contemplation Unites Liturgy with Daily Life
by Hans Urs von Balthasar
www.adoremus.org/499vonB.html
Part of it...
In contemplation...we have found the link which joins the two halves of Christian existence the "work of God" in the realm of the Church and the work of man in the everyday world into a firm unity. Contemplation binds the two together in a single liturgy which is both sacred and secular, ecclesial and cosmic. Without contemplation it would scarcely be possible to unite the two, for the simple reason that, practically and psychologically, the effect of the Church's liturgy fades as the day proceeds, and the world's work is for the most part remote from it. Some link is necessary if they are to be drawn together in a lived, spiritual unity. In contemplation, however, liturgy becomes Spirit, and this Spirit can become incarnate in everyday life. In some way or other, of course, this is what happens necessarily in every authentic Christian life: anyone who assists at Mass with devotion and knows what he is doing when he receives communion is bound to pay attention to the spiritual meaning of the celebration and its offer to refashion the Christian's everyday life.
And the more deliberately he thus "pays attention", the better the two parts fit together the supernatural form which comes down from eternity, and the matter of everyday life in the world. Those who attempt to join the two without contemplation either take the sacramental principle to extremes and improperly expect it to yield quasi-magical effects, or else they sacralize worldly affairs in a completely exaggerated way, constructing a theology of earthly realities and reckoning the office, technology, comfort, the state and secular culture among the factors which go to build up and bring about the kingdom of God.(The latter often occurs nowadays, particularly in those spiritualities which have a false view of contemplation.)
By contrast, the man who is filled with the spiritual law of Christ as he goes to his daily work will see it in the same sober terms as holy scripture does, yet he will be aware that the earth and its toil is joined, seamlessly, to the work of heaven. If the Liturgical Movement is isolated and has no connection with a contemplative movement, it will remain a kind of Romanticism, a flight from time, inevitably calling forth the protest of a counter-Romanticism promoting a false sacralization of everyday things.
This last sentence really describes how I had seen Liturgy in the past. A significant amount of it just seemed so damn archaic and irrelevant to me before. Just being honest. I mean, I knew that it is very helpful for some people and I knew that it was a part of historical and contemporary Christian worship...but I just didn't think that it was "for me". But, lately, I've been seeing some of the real beauty that's been there all the time. And I know that it's contemplation through God's grace that's made the difference. Friggin trippy.
For more Von B...www.ratzingerfanclub.com/Balthasar/
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2006 4:18 PM (GMT -6) | |
Namaste said...
. . . how I had seen Liturgy in the past. A significant amount of it just seemed so damn archaic and irrelevant to me before. . . . but I just didn't think that it was "for me".
I see what you are saying, in the way we speak today. But liturgy is not an american-english word. It just means "the work of the people." Collecting gifts received from God and perparing them as offering (They were used in benevalence, and part in the Eucharist too.) to represent not only their own value but also our own hearts and minds...
While I see what you are saying, and can find it represented in B., I think you should ALSO investigate "S."
Amazon.com: For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy: Books: Alexander Schmemann by Alexander Schmemann ... life "for the life of the world," came ... www.amazon.com/Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087 -
This is a CLASSIC, and you would be glad if you got a copy!
EVERYHTING is "sacramental. So I have to take issue, in certain ways, with some of what you -- and maybe even B. -- wrote.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2006 4:22 PM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...
...I love the analogy of metal in fire! Total permeation but not annihilation. If it turns into a kind of positive annihilation into bliss, I'm not interested. I wanna recognize my SELF when I'm all I can be in God's presence.
Tom
Don't worry Tom.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2006 4:29 PM (GMT -6) | |
Namaste said...
Ok, siblings. I've been reading like crazy all night...and things are starting to make sense.
Wow. Good news.
"He who endures to the end..."
"Count it all joy when you encounter various trials..."
"Let he who thinks he stands..."
"Built each other up..."
"Pray for one another."
"Rejoice in the Lord always..."
Glory be to God.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2006 6:02 PM (GMT -6) | | |
FOUND THIS:
"Becoming The Jesus Prayer" - by Michael Plekon
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/17/2006 6:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for that last one, B. Tight stuff!
The beauty of Christ shining in the world...truly.
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/17/2006 7:38 PM (GMT -6) | | | Here's s spiritual CLASSIC (edited by Sparks, one of the guy's who went from the Evangelical Orthodox Church to the OE way back when):
===============================
On Lorenzo Scupoli -- (another book has this...) In his Spiritual Combat , Lorenzo Scupoli, a leading figure in the Counter Reformation in Italy, shows that the path to spiritual excellence does not consist in the diligent performance of external practices, but in denying ourselves and devoting ourselves to doing God’s will in loving service. Aspiring to this goal, he continues, we must undertake spiritual combat against our inordinate affections, inclinations, and rebellious passions, taking up the four spiritual weapons of distrust of self, trust in God, spiritual exercises, and prayer. In practical, down-to-earth terms, Scupoli explains how we can use these spiritual weapons to devote ourselves more completely to the service of God in the experiences of our daily lives. http://www.trinstore.com/ecom_2/item_view.cfm?inventoryid=86
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/21/2006 3:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Does God love the elect and hate the non-elect?
By John MacArthur
Question:
There are some who teach that God loves only His elect and hates the non-elect. Please comment.
John:
The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God’s attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that these mercies flow out of God’s boundless love? Yet it is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners.
I want to acknowledge, however, that explaining God’s love toward the reprobate is not as simple as most modern evangelicals want to make it. Clearly there is a sense in which the psalmist’s expression, “I hate the assembly of evildoers” (Ps. 26:5) is a reflection of the mind of God. “Do I not hate those who hate Thee, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against Thee? I hate them with the utmost hatred; they have become my enemies” (Ps. 139:21-22). Such hatred as the psalmist expressed is a virtue, and we have every reason to conclude that it is a hatred God Himself shares. After all, He did say, “I have hated Esau” (Mal. 1:3; Rom. 9:13). The context reveals God was speaking of a whole race of wicked people. So there is a true and real sense in which Scripture teaches that God hates the wicked.
So an important distinction must be made. God loves believers with a particular love. It is a family love, the ultimate love of an eternal Father for His children. It is the consummate love of a Bridegroom for His bride. It is an eternal love that guarantees their salvation from sin and its ghastly penalty. That special love is reserved for believers alone.
However, limiting this saving, everlasting love to His chosen ones does not render God’s compassion, mercy, goodness, and love for the rest of mankind insincere or meaningless. When God invites sinners to repent and receive forgiveness (Isa. 1:18; Matt. 11:28-30), His pleading is from a sincere heart of genuine love. “‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’” (Ezek. 33:11). Clearly God does love even those who spurn His tender mercy, but it is a different quality of love, and different in degree from His love for His own.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 10/22/2006 6:51 PM (GMT -6) | | John MacArthur:
Such hatred as the psalmist expressed is a virtue, [ b]and we have every reason to conclude that it is a hatred God Himself shares. After all, He did say, “I have hated Esau” (Mal. 1:3; Rom. 9:13). The context reveals God was speaking of a whole race of wicked people. So there is a true and real sense in which Scripture teaches that God hates the wicked.
I wish...how I wish..that we could understand what it MEANS that a perfectly loving, perfectly beautiful God had to work with DESPAIRING, VIOLENT human beings in communicating His Word.
That we could understand that God's holy word came through people with ISSUES. And that we don't need some manufactured sense of SECURITY (ala inerrancy) in order to believe in the authority and power of the Bible.
Don't we see this with how Paul talks about the "nature of a woman" being demonstrated by the length of her HAIR???
Man...I wish we got this. Brueggemann and Fretheim, save us!
*********************************
Jefscott:
Tom, I'm thinking McArthur's reasoning is pretty valid as far as it goes. Whether we talk about variation in beautiful experience or constraints imposed by temporal ends (those ends revealed in scripture), we have to admit that the experience of God's love is conditioned at this time. But McArthur realizes that God's preference and desire for all, even now, is for their good. I think UR would be a hard sell for him, as it was for me, but I'm proof that even a McArthur can see how to make the most sense of the ultimate effectualness of God's love when the temporal purposes of the creational project can be viewed as the constraining factors. Indeed, it is precisely because McArthur believes in literal election (i.e., justification unconditioned by LFW) that UR might seem to be the most plausible interpretation of God's unconditional love. At least that's how the logic works for me. But maybe I'm just a polyanna.
This is EXACTLY what I'm hoping, Jeff. Like I'm seriously thinking about talking to John Piper about his maxim...and ask him the question:
How EFFECTUAL is God in bringing about God's own maximal glorification?
One of Piper's main points is that God is so happy BECAUSE God gets everything that he wants.
Hmmmm...
"All is full of love." -- Bjork
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :) | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/13/2007 2:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Bruce.
From the bottom of my heart...
Thanks.
For everything.
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit of Christ, who is in you, whom you have received from God the Father? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." | | Back to Top | | |
| 33 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:23 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|