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markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 10/24/2006 4:16 PM (GMT -6)

Ok, a puzzle that puzzles me...

So...God's dealt with our sins on the cross - that's it, punishment meted out, nothing left, all the evil dealt with.

But then, perhaps there's a murderer here on earth, he's found by the courts, and brought to trial. During this process he comes to Christ, and is forgiven his wrongdoing. What's left to do on earth? Should there be any punishment? If one were a Christian lawyer what should one do? How does the intersection of these two systems work?

I get a parking ticket, I can't pay it...again, how does the cross relate, what's the story?

Any thoughts?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 10/24/2006 8:22 PM (GMT -6)

Good question.

Christ dealt with the *consequences* of our sin.

Were we to do nothing about that, what good would it do?

And as to the dangers in the streets, and the corruption in city hall, we have that still too. And to answer our good questions about those things Jesus gave us a clear picture of the necessity of letting weeds and grain both grow, until harvest, in order that the grain not be harmed in uprooting.

Besides, like the thieves on their crosses, we -- and they in city hall -- may repent and be saved.

(o)

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 10/26/2006 4:38 PM (GMT -6)

Hmm, interesting thoughts - not sure it gets all the way to answer it, but certainly helps a bit.

M

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 10/26/2006 4:54 PM (GMT -6)

How's he going to pay restitution to the family of the murdered man?

(o)

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 10/26/2006 7:34 PM (GMT -6)

Mark: If one were a Christian lawyer what should one do? How does the intersection of these two systems work?

Jeff: The second question is answered by "what is the role of the state?" If you think the state serves a public good, I don't see why it would be trumped by theological doctrines. If I remember correctly, Paul said he wouldn't have appealed to Caesar if he had acutally been guilty.

The first question has to do with the nature of prosecution. I tend to question the propriety of the very role of a prosecutor for a Christian. A prosecutor should do his job to the best of his ability. But if the prosecutor does a better job than the defense lawyer, an innocent person can be punished. It seems that a Christian would want to provide the best (and true, of course) DEFENSE for a person, not the other way around.

Post Edited (jefscott) : 10/26/2006 8:03:52 PM (GMT-5)

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 10/28/2006 4:42 AM (GMT -6)

PotOnWheel said...
How's he going to pay restitution to the family of the murdered man?

I'm fine with the restitution bit, it's the punishment bit that I can't quite get

markporter
Fire over Oxford

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263

Posted 10/28/2006 4:44 AM (GMT -6)

"The second question is answered by "what is the role of the state?" If you think the state serves a public good, I don't see why it would be trumped by theological doctrines."

It would be trumped by theological doctrines, 'cos ultimately the whole thing's God's and about God's way of doing things, surely?

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 10/28/2006 9:03 AM (GMT -6)

Mark: It would be trumped by theological doctrines, 'cos ultimately the whole thing's God's and about God's way of doing things, surely?

Jeff: Right. I wasn't clear enough. If the state is authorized by God to deter wrong-doing, then that is, itself, a theological doctrine. Theological doctrines can't be contradictory to other theological doctrines. So while Christians are limited in what they can do to one another, as Christians, the state is not so limited. Therefore, when a Christian acts as an officer of the state, he/she acts under that authority (a God-sanctioned authority), independent of his/her status "outside" that office.

Anyway, that's the way I would see it. Do you see this explanation as problematic? If so, how? Maybe I haven't thought it through enough, myself.

Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 10/29/2006 2:14 AM (GMT -6)

It's very simple. Jesus is Lord. Not me. Not you. Not the president. Not the court system. And certainly not the majority. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. The proper response for a Christian is to be Christ-like. Insofar as a person, institution, or state fails to follow Christ in forgiveness, that entity is evil. Matt 18:21-35.

Because it smooths some rough edges and because it validates some of our own vices, we Christians frequently and habitually put formal institutions such as the state outside of the range of Christ's Lordship. But if he is Lord, then he is Lord of the whole earth and all that is in it. Retribution is sinful. It is no less sinful after due process or with the endorsement of 51% of the population. Jesus is the only one with a legitimate right to vote on the matter. The idea of a government of and by the people is in direct contradiction to the fundamental confession of the church: that Jesus is Lord. Whatever laws such a government might invent are blasphemy.

The only way to divide the realms of personal and political is by pure force of will. Such division is not based on the teaching of Jesus. The original Christians understood this. It wasn't until a couple centuries latter that we "forgot."

Anyone can say that they belief Jesus forgives sins, and many people do. But people say all kinds of things. What matters is how they act. Ask a certain person if he believes that Jesus paid for the sins of the world, and he might say yes. Put that same man in a jury box with good evidence that a defendant is a murderer, then we see what he really believes.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 10/29/2006 1:22:35 AM (GMT-6)

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