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Similitude
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   Posted 10/29/2006 4:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been meaning to ask this for a while and keep forgetting. Is the atonement necessary for forgiveness because of some essential attribute of God or because of some contingent feature of this particular created order? If the former, what divine attribute would that be, and how does the atonement "work" in this regard? For now, I tend to hold to the latter since I can't make sense out of the former.


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 6:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry for the mere link." (Would C.S.Lewis do the same--I guess not.)
 
 
This is the pivotal doctrine of the Orthodox Christian faith, expressed over and again in many ways throughout the history of the Orthodox Church. It is the doctrine of the atonement -- for we are made to be "at one" with God. It is the doctrine of redemption -- for we are redeemed, i.e., "bought with a price," the great price of the blood of God (Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20).
Have this mind among yourselves which you have in Christ Jesus who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant [slave], being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phil 2:5-11).
In contemplating the saving and redeeming action of Christ, it has become traditional to emphasize three aspects which in reality are not divided, and cannot be; but which in theory (i.e., in the vision of Christ's being.and activity as the Saviour of the world) may be distinguished. The first of these three aspects of the redeeming work of Christ is the fact that Jesus saves mankind by providing the perfect image and example of human life as filled with the grace and power of God.



Jesus, the Perfect Image of Human Life
. . .



Jesus, the Reconciler of Man with God

. . .
 


Jesus, the Destroyer of Death


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Similitude
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   Posted 10/29/2006 7:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's what I'm getting at, POW. There is a school of thought that claims that God can just forgive without sacrifice of any kind. If that is true, then Christ's death seems gratuitous, so I reject that view. If it's not true, why is some kind of propitiatory sacrifice necessary at all. Is it because of something in God's essential nature that sinners can't just be forgiven? Or is it something about the "rules" of this contingent creation that renders a propitiation necessary for the forgiveness of sin, given God's faithfulness to those rules? I don't know how to explain the former, so I suspect the latter is true.


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 8:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hope this does not annoy...

propitiation: (thefreedictionary.com) the act of placating and overcoming distrust and animosity

expiatory (Answers.com): Serving to purify of sin -- as in "A year in jail was the expiation demanded for the crime."

expiation (Answers.com): compensation for a wrong


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 9:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I find that Fr. Reardon uses _"expiation,"_ and complains about Evangelical translations using propitiation as a reading-into the text of preheld notions.

But, here's Wikipedia:
"In Christian theology, propitiation is the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, by which He appeases the wrath of God (not an emotional response of anger but a moral response of indignation), and conciliates Him who would otherwise be offended by our sin and would demand that we pay the penalty for it."

Note that in that statement God is not portrayed as being emotionally angry. I'm glad for that.

Also note, that God is portrayed as having "moral indignation." I wonder whether that is partially true and partially unnecessary--by virtue of other alternatives.

What if we take the "moral indignation" idea out, and slide in its place the recognition that God creates by His Word, and that disobedience to God's will produces "damaged goods." Then...God's zeal is for everything to be good, and the damaged goods are in need of the restoration/healing that God wants, so that they can be good. Call this God's zeal. (I read somewhere that the word often translated "wrath of the lamb" is actually better translated "zeal" as it describes a Roman military commandar's insistance on getting his way.)

What you end up with STILL has teeth! And there sill is a "response" to sin.

The propitiation/expiation took place in the flesh of Christ. One way or the other, either translation.

But "hilasterion" -- Something still depends on how you translate that one?

What's at stake is the issue of whether we are just "forgiven" in God's reconning, or whether this event of being forgiven also involves some change in us.

In God, only. Or in us too?

What do you think?


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 9:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Old thread:  Christology: The Unchartered Openness Issue
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 9:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
LOTS at http://www.touchstonemag.com/frpat/2006_04_02_frpatarchive.html


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 9:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

From the above link:

Maundy Thursday, April 13

The Mystery of Expiation: Among the biblical concepts supporting St. Paul's theology of atonement, one of the most important, surely, is that of expiation. What does the Apostle mean when he writes, "God set forth [Jesus Christ] as the expiatory in His blood" (Romans 3:25)? Although this is the only time St. Paul uses the noun hilasterion, I believe that the full context of his epistles, along with the Old Testament substratum on which they depend, provides the correct and adequate meaning of that term.

If I seem to belabor an obvious point--that we should go to the Bible for enlightenment on the subject of expiation-- let me say that I do so from a sense that some readers of Holy Scripture in recent centuries either have not done so, or have done so inconsistently. They have borrowed misleading ideas from elsewhere.

In classical and Hellenistic Greek, the verb "to propitiate" (hilaskomai), when used with a personal object, normally signified the placating of some irate god or hero. It is a curious fact that since the rediscovery of ancient Greek literature in the West, beginning from the Renaissance, there has grown a strong tendency to impose this pagan meaning of "expiation" on the teaching of the Bible.

Understood in this way, Paul is presumed to teach that Jesus, in His self-sacrifice on the Cross, placated God's wrath against sinful humanity. That is to say, the purpose of the shedding of Christ's blood was to propitiate, to assuage an angry Father.

Let me say that this interpretation of the Apostle Paul is very erroneous and should be rejected for three reasons.

First, this picture is difficult to reconcile with Paul's conviction that God Himself is the One who made the sacrifice. How easily we forget that the Cross did cost God something. He is the One that gave up His only-begotten Son out of love for us. It was Jesus' Father "who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all" (Romans 8:32). Sacrificial victims are expensive, and in this sacrifice the Father Himself bore the price. He gave up, unto death, that which was dearest and most precious to Him. In the death of Jesus, everything about God is love, more love, infinite love. There is not the faintest trace of divine anger in the death of Christ.

Second, in those places where Holy Scripture does speak of propitiating the anger of God, this propitiation is never linked to blood sacrifice. When biblical men are said to soften the divine wrath, it is done with prayer, as in the case of Moses on Mount Sinai, or by the offering of incense, which symbolizes prayer. Because blood sacrifice and the wrath of God are two things the Bible never joins together, I submit that authentic Christian theology should also endeavor to keep them apart.

Moreover, when the Apostle Paul does write of God's anger, it is never in terms of appeasement but of deliverance. At the final judgment, when that divine anger, far from being placated, will consume the realm and servants of sin, Christ will deliver us from it, recognizing us as His faithful servants (1 Thessalonians 1:10; Romans 5:9). There will be not the slightest hint of appeasement at that point.

Third, the word hilasterion, which I have translated as the substantive "expiatory," seems to have in Paul's mind a more technical significance. In Hebrews 9:5, the only other place where the word appears in the New Testament, hilasterion designates the top, the cover, of the Ark of the Covenant, where the Almighty is said to throne between and above the Cherubim. In this context, the term is often translated as "mercy seat," and it seems reasonable to think that this is the image that Paul too has in mind.

On Yom Kippur, the annual Atonement Day, the high priest sprinkled sacrificial blood on that hilasterion, "because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions of all their sins" (Leviticus 16:16). Therefore, by saying that God "set forth" (proetheto) Jesus as the expiatory, or "instrument of expiation," for our sins, Paul asserts that the shedding of Jesus' blood on the Cross fulfilled the prophetic meaning and promise of that ancient liturgical institution of Israel, reconciling mankind by the removal of the uncleanness, "their transgressions of all their sins." The Cross was the supreme altar, and Good Friday was preeminently the Day of the Atonement. The removal of sins was not accomplished by a juridical act, but a liturgical act performed in great love: "Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:2). Loving both the Father and ourselves, Jesus brought the Father and ourselves together by what He accomplished in His own body, reconciling us through the blood of His Cross.

In the Bible, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (Leviticus 17:11). The victim slain in sacrifice was not the vicarious recipient of a punishment, but the symbol of the loving dedication of the life of the person making the sacrifice. This sacrificial dedication of life is the means by which the sinner is made "at one" with God. Such is the biblical meaning of expiation and the proper context in which to interpret Paul's teaching on the sacrifice of Christ.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 9:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(That's enough fig bars for a full bag.)


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 9:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/frpat/2004_01_25_frpatarchive.html

. . .

According to biblical thought, "the life is in the blood." Therefore, the pouring out of Jesus’ blood in His sacrifice on the Cross is the pouring out of His life in love for the Father and for each of us. By this pouring out of His life, Jesus cleanses away our sins. By His death He defeats sin, and by His resurrection He defeats death.


The righteousness of man, received in faith, comes from the righteousness of God manifested in the expiatory mystery of the Cross. Through the death of Jesus, God both manifests Himself as righteous and makes believers righteous "by the faith of Christ" (verse 26).


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/29/2006 9:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(continued)
 
And just preceeding that, in the above link, is this:
 
Hilastrion means, rather, the place of divine forgiveness, the locus of the atonement. It is the word used in the Septuagint to refer to the "mercy seat" where God meets man in the sprinkling of sacrificial blood (Leviticus 16:2,11-17).


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Similitude
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   Posted 10/29/2006 10:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What attribute of God requires the death of His Son to atone for sin? Why, IOW, does God have to kill His Son to love a sinner? Is it holiness? If so, how is the death of the Son effectual in making the sinner holy? Isn't forgiveness distinguishable from sanctification? Or is forgiveness a subset of sanctification? And if so, how so?


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/30/2006 12:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jefscott said...
What attribute of God requires the death of His Son to atone for sin? Why, IOW, does God have to kill His Son to love a sinner? Is it holiness? If so, how is the death of the Son effectual in making the sinner holy? Isn't forgiveness distinguishable from sanctification? Or is forgiveness a subset of sanctification? And if so, how so?
May I still try?
 
Q=What attribute of God requires the death of His Son to atone for sin?
A-This is NOT an attribute "of God" but an attribute of our sin, that requires (as the will of God in his Love) that the Father sacrifice the Son to save us. Our sin did not change God; it changed us. And the Cross and the Resurrection and the Assension were the only way.
 
Q=Why, IOW, does God have to kill His Son to love a sinner? 
A-Absolutely not. The Bible tells us that while we were dead in our sins -- before Christ's sacrifice -- He loved us. And this did not change by our sin, nor after our redemption.
 
Q=Is it holiness? 
A-No. In His holiness God loved us even while sinners. And even in his wrath He loved us. And because of his Love had wrath towards our sin.
 
Q=If so, how is the death of the Son effectual in making the sinner holy? 
A-By faith, in grace.
 
Q=Isn't forgiveness distinguishable from sanctification? 
A-I'm not sure. Forgiveness is an intersting thing when from one who wants and acts to restor, who from the beginning loves, loved, and wished restoration. What is "forgiveness" then?
 
Q=Or is forgiveness a subset of sanctification? 
A-Not sure. But probably not.
Seems that sanctification is "in Christ" -- is being attached to the Vine and partaking in the life of the Vine and growing as a result. And probably never ends in growing.
 


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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 10/29/2006 11:24:56 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/30/2006 12:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HERE is a site's discussion where a very civil, well thought out and well expressed discussion between a Reformed and an Orthodox participant go for two pages on the issue of propitiation/expiation, referencing several good resources.
 
Its worth reading both pages!
 
You too, D. cheers
 
 
 


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/30/2006 12:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

To say that Christ is our expiation is to reference the OT image (same word in the Greek OT) of the surface that received the blood over the altar, to symbolize the acceptance of God.

In Hebrews 9:5, the only other place where the word appears in the New Testament, hilasterion designates the top, the cover, of the Ark of the Covenant, where the Almighty is said to throne between and above the Cherubim. In this context, the term is often translated as "mercy seat," and it seems reasonable to think that this is the image that Paul too has in mind.

On Yom Kippur, the annual Atonement Day, the high priest sprinkled sacrificial blood on that hilasterion, "because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions of all their sins" (Leviticus 16:16). Therefore, by saying that God "set forth" (proetheto) Jesus as the expiatory, or "instrument of expiation," for our sins, Paul asserts that the shedding of Jesus' blood on the Cross fulfilled the prophetic meaning and promise of that ancient liturgical institution of Israel, reconciling mankind by the removal of the uncleanness, "their transgressions of all their sins." The Cross was the supreme altar, and Good Friday was preeminently the Day of the Atonement. The removal of sins was not accomplished by a juridical act, but a liturgical act performed in great love: "Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:2). Loving both the Father and ourselves, Jesus brought the Father and ourselves together by what He accomplished in His own body, reconciling us through the blood of His Cross.

So, WHAT is the "sweet-smelling aroma" Hebrews speaks of?


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Sahid
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   Posted 10/30/2006 2:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I do believe that God can just forgive without the killing of anyone or anything. Human societies typically cannot. I believe that the idea of an atoning sacrificial/scapegoat system is a human creation. It is certainly not distinctly Judeo-Christian. Jesus' death brings the injustice of the scapegoat system to light. Sacrificing one to save many is not God's way. It is the way of Jesus' murderers. Jesus' sacrifice appeases not God's anger but our own. He satisfies our sense of righteousness not God's. His resurrection (hopefully) leaves us humbled; our abandoning and sacrificing innocent victims for the sake of the community is opposed to the way of the God who restores the crucified victims of the world.

Rene Girard. Anyone interested in Christian theology has got to read Rene Girard.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 10/30/2006 1:59:12 AM (GMT-6)

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Similitude
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   Posted 10/30/2006 7:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW: Q=Why, IOW, does God have to kill His Son to love a sinner? 
A-Absolutely not. The Bible tells us that while we were dead in our sins -- before Christ's sacrifice -- He loved us. And this did not change by our sin, nor after our redemption.
 
Jeff: Yes, but could we have experienced God's love in the sense of justification and glorification without Christ's sacrifice? That's the point I'm getting at. The experience of God's love is conditioned (is it not?) upon the effectualness of Christ's death seemingly.
 
Zach: Jesus' sacrifice appeases not God's anger but our own. He satisfies our sense of righteousness not God's.
 
Jeff: Why would God send His Son to die a horrible death just to satisfy someone's false sense of justice, though? And why did Christ, himself, say he gave his life as a ransom for many and pour out his blood for the remission of sins if in fact his death had no atoning affect at all?
 
 


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/30/2006 10:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sahid said...
I do believe that God can just forgive without the killing of anyone or anything.
Can forgiveness, for God, be something that also leaves us in our travail of bondage? No.So forgiveness is not jjust "in God's mind," but also invoves rescuing us. Right?
 
God became man, and died, that we can have eternal life, and live.
 
Christ's passion, which stretched from his first moments in the flesh unti his death on the Cross, was absolutly necessary!


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/30/2006 10:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jefscott said...
POW: Q=Why, IOW, does God have to kill His Son to love a sinner? 
A-Absolutely not. The Bible tells us that while we were dead in our sins -- before Christ's sacrifice -- He loved us. And this did not change by our sin, nor after our redemption.
 
Jeff: Yes, but could we have experienced God's love in the sense of justification and glorification without Christ's sacrifice? That's the point I'm getting at. The experience of God's love is conditioned (is it not?) upon the effectualness of Christ's death seemingly.
J:  Can we "have experience (of) God's love in the sense of justification and glorification without Christ's sacrifice?"
 
P:  No. I think not. And I think Scripture is clear on that. The Incarnation and glorification was necessary, for us.
 
.
 
J:  The experience of God's love is conditioned (is it not?) upon the effectualness of Christ's death seemingly.
 
P:  Yes. No life without the Vine, and no vine without the incarnation.
 
Read Athansias' "On the Incarnation."
 
.
 
WHAT'S THIS REALLY about?
 


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Sahid
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   Posted 10/30/2006 10:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: Why would God send His Son to die a horrible death just to satisfy someone's false sense of justice, though?

Zach: Because that someone is us. He gives us exactly what we wanted and shows us just how hopeless that way is. He embodies selfless love even at the cost of death. His life, teaching, death, and resurrection are all part of the same movement of atonement. Jesus shows us a better way: the way of love and the cross.

Jeff: And why did Christ, himself, say he gave his life as a ransom for many and pour out his blood for the remission of sins if in fact his death had no atoning affect at all?

Zach: Christ's death was a ransom. I don't see why this metaphor needs to be abandoned. Christ's death was also atoning. I do not deny its atoning affect. What I deny is that the impediment to our forgiveness was God's sense of justice or anger. It is simply our refusal to embrace a lifestyle of forgiveness.

POW: Can forgiveness, for God, be something that also leaves us in our travail of bondage? No. So forgiveness is not just "in God's mind," but also invoves rescuing us. Right? God became man, and died, that we can have eternal life, and live. Christ's passion, which stretched from his first moments in the flesh unti his death on the Cross, was absolutly necessary!

Zach: I agree completely.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 10/30/2006 9:06:04 PM (GMT-6)

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Violin for God
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   Posted 10/31/2006 1:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW, I first want to say thank you for your insight on this! I've been wondering about this for a while and I really like what you said:
Q=What attribute of God requires the death of His Son to atone for sin?
A-This is NOT an attribute "of God" but an attribute of our sin, that requires (as the will of God in his Love) that the Father sacrifice the Son to save us. Our sin did not change God; it changed us.
 
This totally makes sense to me - the whole broken (or corrupted) machine idea. So here's just a thought that came to mind... do you think that when the fall took place, that some degree of "life" was lost that only could be replenished by the giving of another life that was pure enough to make us whole again, in perfect union with the ultimate giver of life? Maybe I'm waaaay off in this, but just a thought- suppose the Father was the one who was the life-giver to Adam. Then when Adam separated from the Father, another "like yet unlike" person (like Adam in humanity, unlike Adam because of being "overflowing" with life itself because of deity) had to be the "replenisher"... but to be replenished, we must then be linked to the replenisher (like the kinsman-redeemer idea). I don't know... maybe I'm missing the boat.
 
Regarding the distinction between forgiveness and sanctification, I think you have to have forgiveness first before sanctification. Without Love, there could be forgiveness, but no drive to sanctify. With Love, there is the desire to sanctify in order to bring the other into a perfect loving relationship. (I'm all for the love idea right now!)


 

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 10/31/2006 7:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
VfG, your analogy is helpful. (I won't push it to the breaking point...)


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One Love
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   Posted 10/31/2006 8:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok... Just go with this one for a bit...

God perfectly loves us. Because of this, God wants our greatest good...in the form of every being spending eternity enjoying relationally-appropriate intimacy with God. God doesn't wish for anyone to be lost.

At the same time,

God is perfectly honoring of us. God truly respects the radical individuality and freedom that God has given us. It is for this reason that God allows for rational and moral deliberation....and for irrevocable ramifications for our actions.

Now...

In the context of a fallen world, a contingent expression of perfect honoring is PERFECT JUSTICE. In other words, God would be impartial when it comes to what people are due. God is zealous about people taking full responsiblity for what they've done, whether the impacts are positive or negative. In a world where all was love, there would never NEED to be a consideration of making sure people took responsibility. It would always just happen. It's only in a FALLEN CONTEXT that God takes people to task about taking responsibility.

Now...here's the enigma...

God knew, before Creation, that the wages of sin is death. That is to say, God knew that the natural ramifications for moving away from life and reality...is separation, diminished life, and insanity. He also knew that the emergence of sin was INEVITABLE, given the grandeur of God's plan. (ie having billions and billions of free-willed agents relating to him) It was just a matter of time before SOMEONE fell into sin.

God was also smart enough to know that the sickness of sin is the most VIRULENT form of sickness...and that once emerged, it would probably take out a number of beings. (It took out 1/3 of the angels in heaven...and it's totally enveloped the human race because of the "original sin";-)

Now God's in a conceptual pickle.

God's wants to share the perspective of all sentient beings, and in so doing, recieve beautiful experience. But God doesn't want eternally despairing beings! (This is why God pushed Adam and Eve out of the garden. God didn't want humans to be STUCK in such a despairing state. Allowing for the full ramification of physical death was DIVINE ACCOMODATION to the fallen situation.) That wouldn't be cool. But on the other hand, if beings FREELY CHOOSE their way into this sickness...it's crucial to God that they take responsibility and ramifcations for their actions. Unfortunately, for despairing spiritual beings to take responsibility for their actions in this way would effectively mean REMAINING in despair until they could get themselves out. But crazy people can't save themselves. Moreover, even if they WERE able to save themselves, it would be a complete service of justice if they were to ENDURE their chosen fate for the remainder of their existence: eternity. Either way, they would end up in despair and craziness forever! Uh oh...

So God is like "Ok, I want to create rationally and morally responsible beings for my glory. This means that there will be irrevocable consequence to their actions. But there's a significant chance that a MAJORITY of them will be eternally lost to me...if I don't do something. But what can I do that will NOT abridge the responsibility element that's so important to WHO THEY ARE? I can't just negate all ramifications, for that's not how I've wired things. Hmmm...

Well...

A contingent expression of perfect love in a fallen context is unconditionally available FORGIVENESS. So, God can and does offer this forgiveness. All the time. But here's the deal...divine forgiveness would NOT NECESSARILY solve the problem. God could forgive people easily. But it would not deal with the MORAL RESPONSIBLITY that the beings have. God couldn't just negate all ramifications of actions and STILL have moral responsibility mean anything. Moreover, how would it help a person if they were so deep in their despair that they constantly REFUSED God's forgiveness. What can be done?

The issue is NOT about whether or not God can forgive sin at any time. Of course, God can do that. It's a matter of RESTORATION OF LIFE to MORALLY RESPONSIBLE beings who have walked away from life.

And at this point, the greatest plan of all time came into works.

"Greater love has no person than this, to give their lives for their friends"

It's all about love which is all about CHOICE. If some person were to FREELY CHOOSE to give themselves for lost people.

This is how perfect honor benefits the situation. God would honor the freely given SELF-SACRIFICE on behalf of the sacrificing person. And God would allow the full ramfications of that sacrifice. But HOW could the sacrifice of ONE PERSON actually have ramifications that could solve the problem ALL despairing spiritual creatures? Moreover, how would things work out such that the despairing spiritual creatures STILL had to take responsibility for their actions?

Hmmmm...

Long story short, the plan got hashed out. The Son would incarnate himself into humanness. (Why humanness? Because part of the plan is for humanity to be "divinized", that is to say, brought into the very life of God. Even though the Son's work would free ALL despairing spiritual beings in principle, his work would, at the same time, elevate humanity to divinity!) He would FREELY CHOOSE to take upon himself the despair of the world. In other words, The Son would experience all of the ramifications of despair in human form. He would experience the separation from God and the utter pain that causes. This would be the most intense form of separation ever experienced because this would be an incarnated member of the Godhead EXPERIENCING separation from the Father, to whom he has ETERNALLY related well! (We can't even imagine this level of pain!) He would even experience physical death. By choosing to do this as an act of love for all despairing beings, the Son gives God the ability to APPROPRIATE that act to all relevant parties. Because the Son is God incarnate, his act can effect ALL that he is related to...and since the Son is the Creator and Sustainer of all things, he is related to all spiritual beings that have ever been created. So, the Son VOLUNTARILY CHOSE to endure the pain and horror of despair...so that forgiveness would NOT occur without morally-relevant cost or without effect to all spiritual beings.

Divine forgiveness has a deep SELF-SACRIFICIAL element!

And that cost is MORE THAN ENOUGH to compensate for the natural ramifications of the despair of non-God spiritual creatures. God, being a being that perfectly honors others, honors the Son's FREE CHOICE to sacrifice himself on behalf of others. This makes way for SALVATION for others.

But how does this get appropriated by spiritual creatures? Moreover, HOW do spiritual creatures take RESPONSIBLITY for their actions in this model?

At some time in their existene, they place FAITH in Christ's sacrifice for them...as they respond to God's empowering GRACE.

As beings recognize that they are IN despair before God...and that there was NO WAY that they could have saved themselves...they take full responsiblity for the fact that it was THEIR SIN that nailed Jesus to the Cross. Not his own. God accepts this taking of responsibility and declares that, with respect to the natural ramification of sin (eternal despair)...

THE PRICE HAS BEEN PAID.

There is no longer any reason (linked to moral responsiblity) that despairing spiritual beings HAVE to experience eternal despair.

To be sure, spiritual beings WILL have to take responsiblity for the level of beauty and ugliness that they have created in God's world. (This is what happens in "hell";-) But because of what Jesus did, that's ALL that they have to be accountable to. All have been saved from eternal despair IN PRINCIPLE by God.

Now, here's where God's REALLY smart.

God knew that despairing spiritual beings could STILL choose not to accept responsibility through Christ...and so remain in eternal despair forever.

But God created a failsafe.

And the failsafe had the benefit of NOT going against perfect justice at all.

See, God would create spiritual beings with an important dispositional tendency:

1) All spiritual beings, by definition of being mediators of possibility and actuality, would NEVER FAIL to prehend at least ONE possiblity related to God.

2) All spiritual beings are wired to experience total life and aesthetic satisfaction ONLY by being rightly related to God.

The first disposition means that it would be METAPHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a being to so obscure their perception of God that they could eliminate ALL PERCEPTION of God's reality. All the beings could do is SUPRESS the perception. What this means, then, is that as LONG as God exists, a spiritual being WILL SEE a possibility of relating to God. There's NO WAY that a spiritual being can escape from this. (This is why hell is SO BAD for people who are CRAZY and believe that God doesn't love them!) This disposition forms the first half of the "God-shaped vaccuum"

The second disposition forms the other half of the "God-shaped vacuum" in that our natural wiring "reaches out" for what God IS...and God IS perfect unconditional love and caring concern. God IS the source of our lives! It's a deep soul hunger that all beings have been created with BECAUSE all spiritual beings are wired to seek for aesthetic satisfaction. Long story short, the unconditional love and caring concern that God IS...is the only thing that can fill this seemingly unquenchable desire to EXIST as something connected, yet uniquely significant.

Because of these two dispositions, it is NATURAL to spiritual, creaturely existence to 1) PREHEND God at all times and 2) ENJOY being rightly related to God, when they take the leap of faith to EXPERIENCE that right-relation

This way of creating spiritual beings doesn't contradict God's desire for rational and moral responsibility in the least. BUT, it creates a possiblity...a VERY, VERY important possiblity.

If a finite spiritual creature DOES resist God's wooing and falls into the hellish state, the despairing spiritual being can have an INDEFINITELY LONG stay in that state.

However...

Since God knows how we are wired, because he made us...he knows that...as CRAZY in despair as we may be...we CANNOT prehend God's unconditional love and concern eternally...and NOT have a "moment of lucidity" where we are FREE from our despair enough to rationally deliberate our state. It's inevitable. Just like a finite sponge cannot suck up an infinite ocean, so also a finite being cannot supress the truth and resist their OWN inner desires forever.  And because the moral responsiblity thing has been taken care of by Jesus, despairing beings don't HAVE to take responsibility for their despairing by being separated from God.  Justice has been served...yet salvation is UNCHANGABLY OPEN to people.

Not only all of this...but...

God's plan was to maximize God's own glorification through the contingent displa of God's ad intra life. In Christ's work, God took the GREATEST TRAGEDY (the death of God's own son) and turned it into the GREATEST TRIUMPH (the utter defeat of sin and death) because of the GREATEST EXAMPLE OF DIVINE SELF-REVELATION(while we were yet sinners, Christ chose to die for us)

This is the creation of SUPREME BEAUTY out of SUPREME UGLINESS

Which God appreciates supremely.

This is why Jesus is worthy of ALL honor and glory...and worthy to be the Emperor of the New Humanity. He gave himself for it...and glorified the Father in the process.

Ok...I guess that's all for now.


"All is full of love."  -- Bjork
 
 
"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." -- 1 John 4:16b
 
 
"God is most glorified in us as we are most satisfied in God's love." -- the newest mantra of the Evangelical Universalist :)

Post Edited (Namaste) : 10/31/2006 8:06:26 AM (GMT-6)

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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
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   Posted 10/31/2006 8:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Does anything I just wrote make sense? If not, please help me see where.

Thanks.

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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
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   Posted 10/31/2006 8:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Vi: POW, I first want to say thank you for your insight on this! I've been wondering about this for a while and I really like what you said:

 

Q=What attribute of God requires the death of His Son to atone for sin?

A-This is NOT an attribute "of God" but an attribute of our sin, that requires (as the will of God in his Love) that the Father sacrifice the Son to save us. Our sin did not change God; it changed us.

 

This totally makes sense to me…

 

Tom: The question still remains though. True, it’s our sin that requires a sacrifice be offered and then believed in before we can be free of our sin. The question is ‘why’ a sacrifice? What is it about God that prohibits, say, his just waving his hand and forgiving us independent of any sacrifice? After all, that’s how WE’RE supposed to forgive others—unconditionally and freely. (I hear this from Muslims all the time!)

 

Our sin changes us and not God, yes. But our sin delimits or constrains the possible ways God can relate to us, and this is as much because of who God is as it is due to who we are.

 

So I think the question is still out there—Why a sacrifice? What is it about God that requires a sacrifice to get sinful human beings reconciled to God?

 

Tom


 

Post Edited (TGB) : 10/31/2006 10:14:02 AM (GMT-6)

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