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kerygma
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 1/28/2004 10:14 AM (GMT -6)

Hi all,

As a Christian, I have to say I haven't been aware until recently of a whole underground movement afoot (I suspect it has been going on for some time) to totally discredit Paul as a legitimate apostle, as an inspired writer for God, as a liar, etc.

So, it's interesting to see Jews and Muslims, for example, on message boards use these accusations to try to invalidate much, if not all, of what Christianity is-by saying that much of the New Testament and also much of Christianity is based on a false premise, as they're based on Paul's works and words.

Even "Christians", or those who claim to follow Christ, proclaim what Paul taught was not what Christ taught. That Christ actually is referring to Paul when He mentions a liar in Revelations. And on and on...

So, I'm hoping that you here are familiar with the typical plattitudes offered against Paul, so that I don't have to list them all here, nor their "defense" offered up by those who make the claims.

I'm posting to ask what are the best lengthy and specific counters there are to this on the web which I can access and read.

I mean to tell you I've not found another strawman against Christianity which seems so well "backed up", if only for the volume of material I've seen on it. Here's just an example:

www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

I've just not found anywhere near the material to counter these arguments, and I'm really interested in reading the response to it.

What do you all know?

In His peace,

Scott

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

kingsaint
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80

Posted 1/28/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6)

Scott,

It is my opinion that the attacks on Paul to which you refer are really attacks on a certain reading of Paul that is now being questioned. Christian theology has been dominated by Paul. The theological greats, such as Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Barth etc. all drew heavily from Paul (especially Romans and Galatians). Augustine and Luther both wrote works on Romans and Galatians. It is because Augustine and Luther misinterpreted Paul that we now have attacks on Paul. I think that once we get Paul right, these attacks will end.

For instance, take the history of the interpretation of Romans 7:13(14)-25. Before Augustine, or before Augustine changed his mind!, the early church interpreted Paul to mean the unregenerate person. It was only Augustine who claimed it refered to a regenerate person. Augustine's interpretation was followed by Luther and Calvin. However, most scholars today think that the pre-Augustinians were right.

There is now a "school" of thought called the "New Perspective on Paul" which questions the reading of Paul coming from the Augustine/Luther/Calvin tradition. If you want a good refutation of some popular attacks on Paul, see N.T. Wright's What Saint Paul Really Said--he has a chapter where he refutes A.N. Wilson's assertion that Jesus and Paul have little in common.

It is too bad the Christianity has misinterpreted Paul. But that misinterpretation is being exposed on many fronts, including the debate on Open Theism. It is not an accident that those most in the reformation tradition are the most against Open Theism. The upcoming meeting of the newly formed "Reformation Society of the Twin Cities" will no doubt take on Open Theism. The meeting is based on Galatians 1:6-10, which I think they will apply to Open Theism! Evil

"Nobody who omits doing good works nowadays does so in order not to be tempted to become self-righteous; he omits it because it is easier."

--Philip Merlan, "Toward the Understanding of Kierkegaard"

Wahoo
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142

Posted 1/28/2004 12:57 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by kingsaint

I think that once we get Paul right, these attacks will end.

My brain is atrophied a little, but 20 minutes of mental discipline a day and I will be able to comprehend more of these discussions.

I'm sure that I read about the authorship of Acts, that the most likely auther, Luke, meant to give Paul some credentials in his day. Paul was not just a theologian... He was ministering to the church, those first Christians who actually witnessed Jesus ascend into the heavens. I have to do some homework but anyone who knows more on this, be my guest.

Notice that Paul was not merely giving decrees in his letter writing. He was caring for the church. This is where perhaps Augustine and others lacked the data to practice good hermeneutics. What the author intends for the audience to hear from the text is the interpretation that we need to chew on. That is not a simple task.

I hope I'm making a good contribution. Blush

Alan Rhoda
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680

Posted 1/28/2004 1:57 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Scott,
I'm not an expert on these matters, but my inclination is to agree with kingsaint here. I checked out the link you posted and it's clear that the fellow rejects Paul because he takes Paul to be advocating the strong theological determinism that the late Augustine, Luther, and Calvin embraced. I don't think that's what Paul actually thought. Perhaps it's time for me to read up on the "New Perspective" on Paul.

Alan

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 1/29/2004 3:57 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Notice that Paul was not merely giving decrees in his letter writing. He was caring for the church.

One of the reasons I am beginning to like the translation "The Message" so much is that the passion Paul had for the church really comes through. It becomes apparent ( to me ) that he was applying what he had received from the Lord to the specific situations he saw occurring, not making grand rules for the church to follow for all times.

peace, don

"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
Terry Scott Taylor

rsirkel
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183

Posted 2/2/2004 7:48 AM (GMT -6)

kingsaint
Thanks for your post replying to kerygma and letting us know about N.T. Wright and "the new perspective on Paul" movement. I am enjoying reading and listening to Wright and the others. Not only because of their knowledge of Judaism and early Christianity but also the issue of how the reformers skewed some of the meanings of Paul. I've listened to several hours of Wright's lectures and will probably invest in some of his, Sanders, and Dunn's writings. You were right Alan, it's time to read up on the new perspective on Paul.

kerygma
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/2/2004 8:55 AM (GMT -6)

Well,

Thanks to those who have taken the time to reply back. I'm not sure about Paul being misunderstood because of Augustine/Luther/Calvin at least from what I have seen - I rarely if ever see their names brought up in these arguments (perhaps I chose a bad example by citing that particular website). I will check out some of the books cited-there seem to be a few that would be good reads!

Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 2/2/2004 5:16 PM (GMT -6)

Hi kerygma. Can’t say I’m familiar with the New Perspective on Paul. But the topic interests me because it is surprising that Paul focuses almost exclusively on who Christ was and the saving power of his death, rather than the specific words (e.g. sayings, parables, conflicts) and deeds (e.g. healings, exorcisms) of Christ himself.

However, Paul mentions several times (Rom. 1:1–4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 11:23ff.; 15:3ff.) that his intention is to pass on the teaching (lit. “kerygma”) he received from the earliest followers of Jesus. This same teaching is narrated in the Gospels and preached by the apostles in Acts (e.g. Acts 10:34–43):

• Jesus inaugurated the fulfillment of messianic prophecy.
• He performed good works and miracles.
• He was crucified according to God’s plan.
• He was raised and exalted to heaven.
• He will return in judgment.
• Therefore repent, believe, and be baptized.

The only time Paul actually quotes Jesus is in response to the Corinthian’s questions about marriage and divorce in 1 Cor. 7—not one of Jesus’ most popular teachings. I think might-be-don’s point about the occasional nature of Paul’s writings is important to keep in mind. Whatever theological system Paul may have been developing took a back seat to proclaiming the kerygma and addressing very concrete challenges facing the early church.

In the end, perhaps the most significant overlap between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught is: “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Rom. 13:9; cf. Gal. 5:14; Matt. 22:34–40; Mark 12:28–33; Luke 10:25–28).

Peace,
Electra

Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/3/2004 3:17 AM (GMT -6)

kerygma,

How duh ya do? Wink

I had a similar problem a few years ago when I debated the atonement with a skeptic named "D Terp wiz" on AOL. Some skeptics will use the Paulianity angle to trash the atonement as well. I got help from a buddy of mine named James Patrick (J.P.) Holding. The link below shows the ensuing debate between J.P. and "D Terp wiz." I'm the "X" that he mentions, but "Paulianity" is mentioned about 3/4 of the way down.

www.tektonics.org/atonedefense.html

As a result of this debate, J.P. recommended that I read N.T. Wright's book that kingsaint mentioned. He also recommended David Wenham's book, "Paul, Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity?" which is more impressive than Wright's book because it deals specifically and THOROUGHLY with this subject.

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802801242/qid=1075816956/sr=1-13/ref=sr_1_13/002-6141351-0741640?v=glance&s=books

Here is the link to J.P.'s review of the book.
www.tektonics.org/DW.PFJFC_0802801242.html

P.S. I just noticed that Wenham has another book out that deals with this subject. I'll have to get that one too now. Shoot!
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802839835/qid=1075816935/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-6141351-0741640?v=glance&s=books

Happy reading! Big Smile

Brandon

"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form

Wahoo
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142

Posted 2/5/2004 8:25 PM (GMT -6)

2 Timothy 1:15 “You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me…” NASB

Revelation 1:11 “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches…” NASB

Revelation 2:2 “I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false.” NASB

There is a point made here. It appears that Paul has noted that “all” who were in Asia had turned away from him. Then, in Revelation it appears Jesus addresses the churches in Asia, and specifically the church at Ephesus, saying “apostles…not” and affirming that they were false.

Are there some people that claimed to be apostles that I missed here? I have limited resources so if anyone has any historical information about this, please comment.

Meanwhile, does Paul’s claim that he was an apostle, false or not, credit or discredit his teaching?

A false prophet is marked by prophesies that do not come to pass. What are the marks of a false apostle?
Black Eye

rsirkel
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183

Posted 2/6/2004 2:42 AM (GMT -6)

wahoo
What about Peter's testimony? Along with your previous post of Luke authoring Acts, we have two witnesses in Scripture. It seems to me the anti Paul crowd is way off the mark if they are using other Scripture as inspired and discount these witnesses from Scripture.

NKJV
2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

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