Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 12/31/2006 9:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
Just what was Christ saying when he told John the Baptist that it behoved them to fulfill all righteousness? In what way was Christ's baptism an act of righteousness? Or was that what he was saying at all?


 

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/1/2007 12:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The incarnation is for *all* of the cosmos. Jordan got baptized.
 
 

Today the nature of the waters is sanctified.

The Jordan is parted in two;

it holds back the flow of its waters//

as it beholds the washing of the Master.

 

You have come to the river as a Man, O Christ the King,

and hasten to be baptized like a servant by the Forerunner,//

on account of our sins, O good God Who love mankind.

 

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,

now and ever, and unto ages of ages.  Amen.


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/31/2006 11:20:02 PM (GMT-6)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/1/2007 12:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QUOTE:

To the voice of one crying in the wilderness,
“Prepare the way of the Lord,”
You came, O Lord, taking the form of servant.
You asked to be baptized though you have no knowledge of sin.
The waters saw You and were afraid.
The Forerunner trembled and cried aloud:
“How will the Lamp illumine the Light?

How will a servant lay his hand on the Master?

You take away the sin of the world, O Savior.//

Sanctify both me and the waters.”


(o)

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 1/1/2007 9:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

So, B., are you saying that Christ's baptism was righteous because it was a specific action (a singularity even, since Christ was in no need of repentance) fulfilling God's will in some way? I suppose that makes perfect sense, whether John understood it all or not. Because John's baptism itself was the righteous thing to do even though it was a new thing, historically speaking. In that sense, maybe we are to understand it as the rent veil and Christ's desparate moment of divine abandonment--events whose meaning could only be fully explained later.

I read something last night interesting, too. One author sees the idea of "fulfillment" and "righteousness" in that passage as part of a greater theme/trend in Matthew. I think there's probably something to that line of thought. Do you have any idea how it might fit with that bigger picture of Matthew's thought, in particular?


 

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 1/1/2007 11:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been thinking a bit more about Matthew's use of "fulfill" and "righteousness." Christ specifically said he came to "fulfill" the law AND the prophets. Thus, part of righteousness entails performing the means to accomplish the ends of prophecy. Maybe it's that simple. That seems to be what you were saying, B. Right?


 

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/1/2007 11:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff, I'm not sure what a singularity is -- maybe some kind of astronomical event with stars blowing up?

I think two threads of thinking can be worthwhile here:

First, group the theophany/baptism with all the other events done to fulfill righteousness like the two doves offered at the temple. Christ was without sin -- "knew no sin." That is necessary first as a foundation upon to which place the fact that he "became sin" for us.

Second, what I was saying is that *the cosmos got baptized" in the incarnation. The whole thing. "As far as the curse is found," as the Christmas hymn "Joy to the world" puts it. The whole thing. The event at the Jordan just is so poigniant, so full of evident irony: baptism is reversed with the phrase in that hymn I posted a quote of says: "The Forerunner trembled and cried aloud: “How will the Lamp illumine the Light?""

Chalk it up with the end of that verse: "You take away the sin of the world, O Savior.//Sanctify both me and the waters.”" Christ removes the sin of the whole world and is the salvation of the whole world.

Make sense?


(o)

Back to Top
 

Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 1/7/2007 6:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW: Jeff, I'm not sure what a singularity is -- maybe some kind of astronomical event with stars blowing up?

Jeff: I'm just meaning a one-time, unique event. Christ's water baptism was a one-time obligation, unlike most other obligations that can reoccur as their appropriate conditions reoccur.


 

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/8/2007 7:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christ's baptism can be looked at in two ways at once: It was part of a cosmic event. And, it was a showing of solidarity to us of how far he--who was without sin but "knew" sin--identified with sinful humanity.


(o)

Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 1/8/2007 7:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christ's baptism was alto a "theophany" (revelation) of the Trinity.


(o)

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:06 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads