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Tim S
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 1/1/2007 8:59 PM (GMT -6) |   |
I need help answering a question!
(I am looking for a response from the open theism point of view only. I have looked at this question from a predestination and foreknowledge view already, thanks.)
I left this post a week ago and got a response from starkman and potonwheel. Thanks to both of you! Starkman and I have been studying this a bit further and he has given me some help. Starkman said I should try asking specifically for TGB, but anyone with an open theism view is welcome!
It is important for anyone who reads this to know, I am not against open theism. I embrace the open view. I am just trying to wrap up a few loose ends as it were.
I have revised my question/story to better explain what I am wrestling with.
Here goes:
Example, car accident:
Person 1 gets in their car and begins to drive from point A to point B. Person 2 gets in their car and begins to drive from point B to point A. Both on the same road traveling in opposite directions towards each other. Needless to say God knows this is happening as He has perfect present knowledge. God also knows where both driver 1 and 2 plan to go because He knows all their thoughts. The question is, what else does He know. In light of the open view everything else is seen just as possibilities. Just as person 1 and Person 2 approach each other, person 1 drifts in the lane of person 2. No forethought, didn't turn the wheel, just drifted over, crash!
If I interpret the open view correctly, not all, but much of the future is not a reality that God can see because it does not yet exist. Much of the future exists not in actualities, but in possibilities. In a sense our future and Gods ability to see our future as more than just possibilities is based upon our next decision.
I understand from what I have read so far that God does see an infinite number of possiblities based on the infinite number of decisions we make. I also understand that God has perfect past, present and future knowledge of all that exists, but can not know what doesn't yet exists. Thus, libertarian free will.
Starkmans anser (thanks starkman) to my car accidnet example was that at the last instant if God willed to do so He could create a miracle. But, I was going one step beyond his timing. My point was "is there ever a time, where God has no time to react"? No time for a miracle. It seems to me that we could think of quite a few possibilities.
This is the difficult thing for me to embrace. With the open view in mind, unless I am missing something, and I am hoping I am, we could defintely come up with quite a few examples where God would not have time to react. If so, this is where the opponents of the open view and also biblical problems arise.
Biblically, scientifically and philisophically, we all agree that God is sovereign. All powerful, all knowing of what can be known. I fully understand the fact that God can be sovereign and still not know the future.
If it does not yet exist, But, and this is a big but. In my example or others that might be better, we are talking about the present. (The right now) mixed with the past. If God is unable to interact, intervene, warn, help, stop or allow things in the present He is then limited, "out of control". He is limited not by a good or bad choice, but an arbitrary situation.
I should state that I DO KNOW that God can and does interact, intervene, warn, help, stop, lead to and lead away in many circumstances. That is not the question. I am not talking about the "many", but specific times like the above car accident.
For me this opens a whole new can of worms or a barrel of monkeys I had not yet seen.
If we read the Bible as is, which the open view seems to do (it is refreshing for once), then it is pretty clear God does change his mind, reacts to our decisions and even is limited by what we do. ie: Jesus could do no mighty work in HIs hometown because of their unbelief, it doesn't say He wouldn't, it say He couldn't, Mark 6:5 and Matthew 13:58. Also Ps 78:40, says that "they limited the Holy One of Israel". Some translations use limited, some use tempted or grieved, but a short word study would make the word limited the best translation. But in these cases and the thousands of other examples in the word, point to God being limited only by "our unbelief or rebellion" (free will, used badly).
Since we seem to be coming from close to the same place it is obvious to "us" that Gods will "desire" is all would be saved, but because of our"unbelief" in a sense, His will is limited. Are you still with me? I hope so. I hope whoever is reading this is not a "one" point calvinist, ha ha. Just a little joke, don't take it personal if you lean that way - I love all my brothers and sisters in Jesus!
In light of what I believe and what open theism seems to say, I have no problem with the fact that a truly free will on our part, causes limitations on Gods part. Understanding that it was His sovereign decision in the first place to make it that way. But, it is important to note that Biblically the only thing God seems to be limited by is "unbelief or rebellioin" (free will, used badly). The general laws that God set in motion set the stage. The law of faith, the law of love, even the natural laws God put in place, but each of these laws fall under the law of seed and harvest or sowing and reaponig. Sow to the flesh, reap of the flesh, whoever we yield ourselves to, the same we are servants to. Jump off a ten story building....splat.
Each of these are obvious repercusions of free will...used badly. Either unbelief or rebellion to Gods law of love or unbelief and or rebellion to the natural laws God has created. In either case we have no right to point at God and say "we never had a chance". If someone gets aids from adultery, they can't point at God and say "what's up with this?" We can't be in a hospital in traction because we jumped off a ten story building and be blaming God for breaking our legs. So on and so on.
But, what I am talking about are those free will decisions that are not based on belief, neither good or bad in Gods eyes, neither are they contradictory to the laws of nature. If "these type" decisions take us to harm or death and there was absolutely nothing we could do, absolutely nothing God could do, is where my problem exists.
The implications of this are endless, can you see the repurcussions? Or am I really missing something? Probably the later.
First, it makes God out of control, not because of our free will used badly, just because "it is what it is". I have read something, maybe from Sanders or Boyd? The title is"The God who risks?" something like that. Anyway, from the short bit I read it made sense. God does risk, even the souls of men to create ones He could love and who could truly love back. But those risks are always based on good or bad decisions from free moral agents. "Believe and you will be saved, believe not and you won't", choose life or death, blessing or cursing. From Genesis-Revelation this is one of the main themes of Gods word to us, but it is always based on trusting God, or not trusting God. Following God or not following God. Believing God or not believing God.
All of Gods blessing are conditional, both old and new testament. All cursing, "Old Testament" were also conditional. These blessings or cursing were always based on either a good or bad use of our free will.
I understand " that risk", the risk above, based on good or bad decisions. What I do not understand is the risk that calamity could be around any and or every (not because of any bad decision we made) corner and there is absolutely nothing we or God can do about it. This is what I am wrestling with.
With that in mind, for those specific circumstances, is there even anything we can pray ahead of time?
Let me say one final thing so you don't think I think our lives are to be perfect and without trouble. I don't. In fact we are promised tribulation and persecution in this world. This question is not posed as " how can God bless me in each situation."
It is posed this way only because it is the best way my limited mind could explain it.
I am asking God, searching the Bible and my mind for truth in this. If anyone has insight, please respond. If you know anyone who might have insight, please tell them to read this post.
Thank you and God bless,
Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/1/2007 11:54 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tim S
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 1/1/2007 11:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Jefscott,
Thanks for the reply. I see your point. Anything is possible with God!!
I can also see that you think I have gone to far with my thinking. Probably, wouldn't be the first time. But, I think the question was more what the general thinking of an open view of this would be. In other words, short of a miracle how is God dealing with us in those type situations. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tim S
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 1/2/2007 12:32 PM (GMT -6) | | jefscott, I understand that in any shaping or molding of a theory, there are differant veiws (consensuses) within the same broad understanding. Lets call these theorys, "camps". Example: calvinism=predestination, arminienism=foreknowledge, open theism=partly open future. I know, way over simplified, but it makes the point. Even though in each camp there are differant ideas at work there is still the "general". ie: open thesim, partly open future.
This "general" theory is and has to be held together by non contradiction, biblically and philisophically. Also this theory can not contradict itself at any point. Thus, to embrace a theory, sooner or later we must go to the end of a thought and work backwards. Looking at every "what if and what about". We might not have expected each and every particular story that Bill, sally or "Tim" can come up with. But, our general knowledge of the theory says "if this happens, we believe this is why, these are the reasons in this situation 2+2 still =s 4.
The point is if I asked the same question about the car accident to a calvinist or armenian they would have an answer that does not contradict their theory. We might not agree, but none the less they would have an answer.
Every theism "must" be able to connect "all" the dots.
I appreciate your responces, thank you. But I must not be asking the question clear enough.
One more "short" stab at it: In open theism, how does God interact with us, help, guide, lead to, lead away from in situations like the car accident example, (short of turning back time and giving everyone amnesia?).
Thanks | | Back to Top | | |
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Tim S
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 1/2/2007 1:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks don, I agree that nothing is "uncaused".
Read the origonal post carefully and the responces and replies to the origonal post. Then please reply again.
The question is not, un uncaused event. It is not even how God deals with us in general (open veiw). The question comes directly from the differance between possibilities and actualities and how God interacts with us in cases where the possibilty is not even a probabilty until the last instant. In those particular cases how is God interacting with us, leading, guiding, warning or allowing, (open veiw)?
Peace back at you, Tim | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/2/2007 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | I understand " that risk", the risk above, based on good or bad decisions. What I do not understand is the risk that calamity could be around any and or every (not because of any bad decision we made) corner and there is absolutely nothing we or God can do about it. This is what I am wrestling with.
This is something we've talked about awhile now, right, Tom?
Speaking providentially, what can we "count on God" for?
In the end, man...
EVERYONE is just doing the best they can.
God included.
God always does the MOST that God can do in any given situation, given ALL creational factors.
God always makes the best possible decisions...given VERY PROBLEMATIC situations!
(Carlie...for those who remember. Rook being sacrificed for the Queen, etc.)
And he does it ALL in love for EVERYONE. And we can't ask any more than that, now can we? 
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/2/2007 5:50:34 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/2/2007 7:00 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hi Tim-
Let me see if I’m following you. It’s your view that the only thing that qualifies the exercise of God’s power in the world is the exercise of human free will. Outside the determination of our wills, the actual choices we make, God may pretty much intervene in the natural order at will. So the only constraints upon God are creaturely volitional constraints. You’re willing to the grant that the free exercise of human volition constrains God’s actions in the world, but you’re uncomfortable with the idea that the processes of the natural order (the non-volitional, accidential stuff that fills in the gaps between the choices we make) might also constrain God’s actions in the world. Am I understanding you rightly? You said, for example, that God is “limited only by our unbelief or rebellion” and that you’re OK with “the fact that a truly free will on our part, causes limitations on Gods part” but that “the only thing God seems to be limited by is ‘unbelief or rebellion’.” So with regard to the crash scenario you described, the difficulty for you is understanding what level of intervention or influence God exercised in the non-volitional dimensions of the event; and since God, you feel, can determine all the non-volitional aspects of creation without constraint or consideration for the volitional aspects, you don’t see how the car crash should even have occurred.
Am I close?
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 1/3/2007 9:59:42 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/2/2007 7:54 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Post-script…
I think the volitional and non-volitional dimensions of creation are necessarily linked. That is, creation is the context in which we determine our choices. It seems to me that part of the necessary conditions for free choice is a sufficiently free environment or creational context in which we choose. You seem to be cool with this Tim. I think that’s where the answer lies. Honoring the environment in which we choose is part of honoring the determining of those choices. This would include the choice to get behind the wheel. When we choose to get behind the wheel, we choose to put all we are (actualities, possibilities, risks, etc.) and the world as we know it behind the wheel. THAT is the choice we make when we drive.
This might seem really strange, Tim, but what I’d like to suggest is that there are ultimately no non-volitional aspects to the created order. In other words, God is everywhere present, maximally engaged in all aspects of creation seeking to bring about the most orderly, beautiful, lovingly related state of affairs possible on each occasion given the constraints he has to work with. That means God’s volition is everywhere active, everywhere defines part of the variables that constitute every situation. So, that crashes of the sort you describe occur (I was in one such accident a few months ago) just proves to me that the natural order possesses a freedom of its own that constrains God’s actions in the world. But these constraints INCLUDE what we call miraculous intervention.
Clear as mud?
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 1/2/2007 6:57:12 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 1/2/2007 10:50 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Tom: This might seem really strange, Tim, but what I’d like to suggest is that there are ultimately no non-volitional aspects to the created order. In other words, God is everywhere present, maximally engaged in all aspects of creation seeking to bring about the most orderly, beautiful, lovingly related state of affairs possible on each occasion given the constraints he has to work with.
Brandon: Agreed. Even in the "non-volitional" or "random chance spaces" of the creational order, God is at work. Check out this question I asked of Exousia some time ago (almost two years ago now. Wow. I can't believe that!: Tsunamis and Randomness
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 1/2/2007 9:55:10 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tim S
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 1/3/2007 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks to all,
Thank you all for hanging in there with the new guy! As I said in my first post I am brand new to the name "open theism". Even though as I said in the same post, I have seen it that way for a long time.
Keith and I have been emailing back and forth for a few days and some light has dawned. With keiths help and all your reply's I am satisfied with how I now understand it.
The question, was a question I have had for a long time. In thinking this question through to the end in both predestination and foreknowledge I was left wanting (my opinion). I knew a few people that believed like I did, but none of them could answer my questions. So I kinda left it alone for a few years.
Let me try to give you my interpitation of what I think you are saying. This needless to say will be way over simplified.
The accident did not have to be an actuality or even a probability for God to interact with us in referance to it. Just the fact that God saw it as a possibilty, it existed. Even if it only existed as a possibilty. Because it existed (as a possibility) God, "could" decide to make that possibilty go away. Before, during or after it acurred. Why he would or wouldn't -Lets not go there today!
Where I was stuck, was the possibilty thing. I didn't see possibilities as actualy existing, but they do. They exist as a possibilty.
I know my example above is not perfect. So don't pick apart each word. But, if you see a big hole please reply.
Thanks again to you all. I know it takes time and thought to respond.
Please reply and let me know what you think.
Tim
Gal 2:20
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Tim S
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 1/3/2007 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Sorry, sorry, I guess the quote that I said rocks was origonally from TBG.
Sorry for the flub.
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Tim S
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 1/3/2007 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | |
For Tom and all the others who helped me through my car accident
Tom, Thanks for reading my post so carefully. You have captured what I was trying to say better than I said it myself. Between You and some others I have a much better grasp of the answer to my question. I am satisfied with where I am at on it.
Although, I would like to respond to one sentence. You were quoting me on this, so I don't know if you hold this belief or not. But I will comment so you are clear on what I meant to say.
Tom siad, quoting what he thought Tim was saying: "Outside the determination of our wills, the actual choices we make, God may pretty much intervene in the natural order at will."
I do not necessarily believe that God can intervene at anytime for any reason. I believe there is much more to it than that. For one thing, I do not believe God will ever violate His Word. If there are circomstances that would cause Him to violate His word, He is unable to cross that line. Not, He wont, but He can't. There are a number of other possibilities starting from creation. If God chose to limit, risk or constrain himself by our free will, is there anything else He chose to limit, risk or constrain Himself in this creation?
Well, thanks allot to you all. I know it took some of you much time and effort to respond | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/3/2007 11:52 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tim S
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Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 13
| Posted 1/4/2007 12:26 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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