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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/29/2004 7:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Sounds like a version of Oneness Penecoastals. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/29/2004 11:22 AM (GMT -6) | | It's been years since I've studied Unitarianism, but if I recall correctly, they do not hold to the essential orthodox beliefs of Christianity: the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, Salvation by faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice, etc.
Unitarianism is socially oriented, liberal and pluralistic in their concept of the gospel: Again, it's been a while, as I say, so what you ought to do is search Google for words like unitarian cult (or cults). Be sure to use the capital "OR" (no quotes) when asking Google to find this OR that word. Otherwise it won't make the distinction.
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/29/2004 11:53 AM (GMT -6) | | | My mistake: after scanning their website they sound a lot like JWs. The father is the one God, Jesus is a little lower, the Holy Spirit is a force. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/29/2004 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | | Their website seems more of a bulletin board of different ideas rather than an actual statement of faith. I found it hard to gauge what they believe, besides not believing in the Trinity. | | Back to Top | | |
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 1/29/2004 12:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Starkman
It's been years since I've studied Unitarianism, but if I recall correctly, they do not hold to the essential orthodox beliefs of Christianity: the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, Salvation by faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice, etc.
Unitarianism is socially oriented, liberal and pluralistic in their concept of the gospel: Again, it's been a while, as I say, so what you ought to do is search Google for words like unitarian cult (or cults). Be sure to use the capital "OR" (no quotes) when asking Google to find this OR that word. Otherwise it won't make the distinction.
Starkman
Just because they have unitarin in their name doesn't make them a part of the unitarian church. I don't see them making that claim about themselves on the link provided above.
Thanks
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects."
~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/29/2004 1:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | After reading their links, it does sound that they are very in a JWs mode. The father is god and Jesus is great, but just a creation of God and the Holy Spirit is just gods power. I think you can deal with them using responses you would use with JWs. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/29/2004 4:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi A Theist,
Funny you should mention this website. Just yesterday, a friend of mine who practices Messianic Judaism asked me what I thought of that very same website. Below is my response (in bold) to an article (not in bold) from that website that claims to refute the Deity of Christ.
(Begin Quotes from article)
If Jesus is God, the Bible is full of Contradictions!
Purpose: To show that in order for the doctrine of the Trinity to be true, the Bible will have to contradict itself many, many times.
Contradiction #1
God is not a man nor a Son of Man
NASB Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Compared with…
Jesus is a man and the Son of Man
NIV Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
NIV Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man (Jesus) will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
This supposed contradiction ignores the historical context in which the OT quotes were made. At the time they were written, before the Word became Incarnate, God was in fact not a man -- yet. Further, the Old Testament itself contradicts their interp of Num. 23:19, for as you know the OT repeatedly says God repents/changes his mind when he has a good reason to.
Contradiction #2
God cannot be Tempted
NIV James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.
Compared with…
Jesus was tempted in every way
NIV Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-- yet was without sin.
Jesus suffered when he was tempted…
NIV Hebrews 2:18
Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
The FACT that God cannot be tempted by evil can simply mean God sees right through any and all temptations, has a pure and holy motive in all He does in all cases, and therefore is unable to be tempted. I do believe God has free will just as Jesus did; however, in all cases, God uses his free will to choose what was right, good, and loving.
This is not unlike me saying of (for instance) homosexual activity, “I am not able to be tempted to do that.” Not that I lack the ability of free will to choose evil in such a case if I were so inclined, but that my will and character are such that I find absolutely no temptation whatsoever to engaging in homosexual activity.
God is simply not interested in choosing evil, and has never been so inclined. He knows full well what that choice would mean were He to take it (the annihilation of the universe, no doubt, for by His own moral law the wages of sin is death), and He has nothing but utmost disgust and hatred for all evil, as His character is totally set to be holy and loving in all choices He makes.
In Jesus’ temptations, as a human being He certainly had to face these things, so that He would be a faithful high priest over the house of God and would be able to help those who are being tempted. Also, Jesus came to show that the Law was not too hard to keep, and that a person could keep it by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Contradiction #3
God is Spirit
NIV John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Compared with…
Jesus is not a Spirit, but flesh and blood
NASB Luke 24:39
"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Again, this “contradiction” seems to ignore the uniqueness of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. The God who was and is Eternal Spirit became flesh.
Contradiction #4
God does not change
NIV James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Compared with…
Jesus does change
NIV Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
This “contradiction” also fails to recognize the significance of the Incarnation. Also, it is important to note that in James 1:17 all that is said is that God does not change like the shifting shadows, not that God never changes in any way at all. The latter would require us to say the Bible was lying when it says repeatedly that God changes his mind when he has a good reason to do so, and that God learns new things about people as they each make choices.
Contradiction #5
God cannot die
NIV 1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (Ref. Jeremiah 10:10 “Yahweh” is the eternal King, not Jesus)
Compared with…
Jesus Christ died for our sins
NIV 1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
I think we all will agree that the deity of Jesus did not die on Calvary. What died was the man Christ Jesus. But as God is Spirit, and Jesus gave up the Ghost (spirit/pneuma) when He died on the Cross, it would be untrue to say that God died on Calvary.
Contradiction #6
God knows everything there is to know
NIV Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Compared with…
Jesus did not know everything there is to know
NIV Mark 13:32
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
NIV Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
The NASB translates this verse differently than the NIV:
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ' My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
Nearly every one of the translations that are more literal than the NIV I was able to consult (NASB, NRSV, Darby, Weymouth, Young’s, Amplified, NKJV) rendered the first word as “declaring,” not “I make known,” as the NIV renders it.
But again, the author makes the same logical fallacy that is made repeatedly throughout this article; i.e., ignoring or denying the uniqueness of the Incarnation.
Of course Jesus had to grow in wisdom and in stature; he was a human being, and his deity was voluntarily (and necessarily) limited by himself in becoming a man.
Contradiction #7
God does not grow weary
NASB Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.
Compared with…
Jesus grew weary
NASB John 4:6
So Jesus, being wearied from His journey, was sitting thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
Ditto to above. Jesus grew weary because He was a man, which He freely chose to become, and so it is not a contradiction to say that God limited himself to a human body, and in so doing became truly mortal until his resurrection from the dead.
As far as I could tell, that website had a curious mixture of Arian/JW beliefs about Jesus as well as baptistic views of perseverance.
A Theist, I'm definitely not trying to be prejudiced in my opinion of that website, but if the above doesn't convince you that these folks are teaching nothing more than historic Arianism (denying the Deity of Jesus Christ and consequently, of the Holy Spirit), I honestly don't know what sort of evidence you are demanding to convince you.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/29/2004 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | | Sorry I gave that impression, A Theist. I am not dismissing them, just giving my general impressions. To me, their beliefs are a lot like JWs, a couple of which I am in dialogue with. Just giving suggestions as to how to dialogue with them based on my impressions, is all. | | Back to Top | | |
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 1/30/2004 5:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Sorry I gave that impression, A Theist. I am not dismissing them, just giving my general impressions. To me, their beliefs are a lot like JWs, a couple of which I am in dialogue with. Just giving suggestions as to how to dialogue with them based on my impressions, is all.
Thanks for the recommendation. I personally don't know what to think. It seems to make sense, but then John Earp's post above seems to suggest that maybe they are too simple of answers to dismiss a doctrine that seems to be the cornerstone of Christian faith.
blessings,
Paul
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects."
~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/30/2004 5:29 AM (GMT -6) | | | I hear ya. There is so much to disgest on the internet sometimes I simply throw up my arms in despair. | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 1/31/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Argument #90:
Because in these two instances, when charged, in the one case, with making himself God, and in the other, with making himself equal with God, he positively denies the charges. In reply to the charge of assuming to be equal with God, he says immediately, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do"; and directly after, "I can of mine own self do nothing," John 5:19, 30. In answer to the charge of making himself God, he appeals to the Jews in substance thus: Your own Scriptures call Moses a god, and your magistrates gods; I am surely not inferior to them, yet I did not call myself God, but only the Son of God, John 10:34-36.
And my argument,
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
And here is the rub,
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/31/2004 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | ON THIS WEBSITE:
Is the Incarnation self-contradictory?
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1642&whichpage=1
Christology: The Unchartered Openness Issue
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=668&whichpage=1
(This thread contains a series of posts with text from Bishop Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Way". Ware recently retired from teaching at Oxford Univ. in England. He is regarded as one of the most knowledgeable westerners re: Eastern Orthodox, in which he is a Bishop.)
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