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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/12/2004 4:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Hi Mark,In my view, sin is an action, not a "nature."
quote:
Hello John, Do you consider our thoughts an action?
Peace, Mark
quote:
Voluntary thoughts, yes. Involuntary thoughts (such as, for instance, seeing a nearly naked woman on a billboard) would not strictly speaking be an action on our part, unless the will consents, and one stares. Know what I mean?
John, maybe we are not that far apart in our differing view of born sinners, I agree, it’s no sin to be born. The question is do you believe we are born holy and in communion with God? I see the fall of mankind to be more about our separation from God, not about being abandoned by God but our exile from Him because of our choices. Our exile from God is the consequence of man’s free choice when confronted with temptation and deciding to do wrong instead of right. We are created in God’s image to establish a relationship with Him which can exist only through our free submission and dependence on Him, and then our choosing to obey God’s laws of creation and the moral norms that govern the use of our God given freedom. The first sin was when Adam and Eve choose to ignore God’s one commandment and abused their freedom in the Garden of Eden. Because of their choice they, and their descendents, are exiled from paradise and from the tree of life. Original sin is not a personal sin in itself, it does not have the character of a personal fault; it is simply a state of the human condition. It is spiritual death (death of the soul) until we are born again (through baptism). Human nature has not been totally corrupted: but it is wounded in its natural powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence"… like your analogy of “Involuntary thoughts (such as, for instance, seeing a nearly naked woman on a billboard)”. Christ's grace erases the state of our original sin and turns man back on the path towards God. Even so, human nature weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. The new Adam “Jesus Christ” restored back to us what the original Adam destroyed with his chosen disobedience in the garden. Original sin is no action on our part (we our not sent to hell for it) it is just a state of the fall. Original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act. God did not make death and he takes no delight in it, it was through the devil’s envy that death entered the world and it is through Jesus Christ our Savior that life is restored to those that accept Him.
Shalom, Mark
LFW:
1. God makes the choice for all people. Those not selected for eternal life have grounds for complaint.
2. God invites all but only some respond. Those who don't respond don't have any grounds for complaint, they got what they wanted.
- Albert Einstein, 2004 | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 2/12/2004 5:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Mark,
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
John, maybe we are not that far apart in our differing view of born sinners, I agree, it’s no sin to be born. The question is do you believe we are born holy and in communion with God?
The following scriptures seem to indicate to me that it is not possible for infants and young children to make truly moral choices:
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Rom. 9:11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil...
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Isaiah 7:15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
In my view, all infants and young children die in a state of grace and acceptance into God's eternal kingdom. As "holy" is to my understanding a moral category, and the basic prerequires to morality are the ability to know right from wrong and the consequent ability to choose between them (the power of contrary choice in moral matters), it does not follow in my view that babies are holy per se. The classical Augustinian view has been that they are born deserving HELL as a consequence of Adam's sin, and that view I categorically deny. Any person who has no ability to choose good over evil is by definition morally neutral.
quote:
I see the fall of mankind to be more about our separation from God, not about being abandoned by God but our exile from Him because of our choices. Our exile from God is the consequence of man’s free choice when confronted with temptation and deciding to do wrong instead of right.
Every individual personally re-enacts the Fall, in my view. And yes, I agree we are separated from God as a result of sinful choices. But as I said above, babies and small children are not able to make moral choices, and therefore are unable to sin.
quote:
We are created in God’s image to establish a relationship with Him which can exist only through our free submission and dependence on Him, and then our choosing to obey God’s laws of creation and the moral norms that govern the use of our God given freedom.
Amen.
quote:
Original sin is not a personal sin in itself, it does not have the character of a personal fault; it is simply a state of the human condition.
Okay this is where I just don't think the Augustinian invention of Original Sin makes any sense at all. (No disrespect towards you, Mark). If it is true as you say above, quote:
I see the fall of mankind to be more about our separation from God, not about being abandoned by God but our exile from Him because of our choices. Our exile from God is the consequence of man’s free choice when confronted with temptation and deciding to do wrong instead of right.
Then I confess I don't see how it follows that "Original Sin is simply a state of the human condition," unless of course you mean to say that "Because we all have followed Adam in sinning, the state of our human condition is separation from God." (On account of personal sin).
quote:
It is spiritual death (death of the soul) until we are born again (through baptism). Human nature has not been totally corrupted: but it is wounded in its natural powers, subject to ignorance,
So Adam was omniscient?
quote:
suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence"… like your analogy of “Involuntary thoughts (such as, for instance, seeing a nearly naked woman on a billboard)”.
Charles Finney referred to the above inclinations as "physical depravity," which he describes as the "occasion of sin" but not the cause. That said, I would not place involuntary thoughts in the category of sin properly so called, or else the proper distinction between temptation and actual sin is blurred, and our Lord himself was a sinner, for the Scripture says he was "tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin." (Heb. 4:15). As James 1:14-15 says,
quote:
"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."
Note, it is not called sin until one is drawn away, enticed, and desire has conceived and then gives birth to sin.
quote:
Original sin is no action on our part (we our not sent to hell for it) it is just a state of the fall. Original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act. God did not make death and he takes no delight in it, it was through the devil’s envy that death entered the world and it is through Jesus Christ our Savior that life is restored to those that accept Him.
But what you have described is a very different thing from the classic historic Augustinian doctrine, which says that infants who died unbaptized die outside of a state of grace (at most, they go to "limbo," as the Roman Cath. church states). Not that you shouldn't disagree with classic Augustinianism (I think we all should), just that what you have described is more in line with Arminianism as far as I can tell, which is not a bad thing, IMO.
Enjoying the conversation. Please feel free to ask more questions. I like your willingness to think about this, Mark.
God bless,
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/13/2004 4:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
I kinda like this one...
1 Corinthians 15:22
"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. "
So if we have "original sin" , we also have new life.
peace, don
Bingo MBD, you have nailed it. Ultimately my goal in this discussion of original sin is to show how Jesus’ work on the cross was meant to reconcile the state of humanity (original sin as a result of the fall) to love, to restore the “original justice” we lost as part of “original sin”. Thanks to Augustinianism, we have to overcome the ridicules myth of babies going to hell.
Luke 18:16 (NIV)
But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
But I’m afraid we have gone from one extreme to the other. Was the baby thrown out the window with the baptism water?
Peace, Mark
LFW:
1. God makes the choice for all people. Those not selected for eternal life have grounds for complaint.
2. God invites all but only some respond. Those who don't respond don't have any grounds for complaint, they got what they wanted.
- Albert Einstein, 2004 | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/13/2004 6:15 AM (GMT -6) | | | So since all died in Adam, involuntary, does that mean all are saved in Christ? Are we talking universalism here? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/15/2004 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
1 Cor. 15:22, unless of course that "all" merely means that all physically dead people will be raised to life for eternal judgment.
Hello Borg, Thanks for the post. Do you beleive because of Adam we "all" are born spiritually dead? I think the following (and Gen 3:22) at least makes it clear of our physical death. - Peace Mark
1 Cor. 15:21-23 (NLT)
So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, Adam, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man, Christ. Everyone dies because all of us are related to Adam, the first man. But all who are related to Christ, the other man, will be given new life. But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised first; then when Christ comes back, all his people will be raised.
LFW:
1. God makes the choice for all people. Those not selected for eternal life have grounds for complaint.
2. God invites all but only some respond. Those who don't respond don't have any grounds for complaint, they got what they wanted.
- Albert Einstein, 2004 | | Back to Top | | |
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MsMe
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 2/20/2004 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi, I'm new here. I found this site by doing a google search and entering the phrase "I did not ask to be born."
As a brief background, I am not a Christian, I believe in God, that Jesus died for our sins, and that we need to accept Him as our Lord and Saviour, and that if we choose to run from Him now we will be separated from him later in hell.
I suppose that I cannot argue with God because he created me and gave me the ability to reason/argue in the first place. But that somehow does not keep me from arguing.
I do not really feel anyone here has addressed the issue "I did not ask to be born."
I understand that I have a choice to make, but am upset that I am here on earth in the first place and have now got to make a choice. If I had any say in the matter, I would prefer to never have been born. Why therefore should I now have to make a choice? I understand that I am a sinner and that God is a just God, and that he provided a way, but this still does not explain to me why I have to make that choice since I never asked to be born and would prefer to not have been born.
Thanks.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/20/2004 6:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MsMe
Hi, I'm new here. I found this site by doing a google search and entering the phrase "I did not ask to be born."
As a brief background, I am not a Christian, I believe in God, that Jesus died for our sins, and that we need to accept Him as our Lord and Saviour, and that if we choose to run from Him now we will be separated from him later in hell.
I suppose that I cannot argue with God because he created me and gave me the ability to reason/argue in the first place. But that somehow does not keep me from arguing.
I do not really feel anyone here has addressed the issue "I did not ask to be born."
I understand that I have a choice to make, but am upset that I am here on earth in the first place and have now got to make a choice. If I had any say in the matter, I would prefer to never have been born. Why therefore should I now have to make a choice? I understand that I am a sinner and that God is a just God, and that he provided a way, but this still does not explain to me why I have to make that choice since I never asked to be born and would prefer to not have been born. Thanks.
Welcome MSME, I'm glad your here and hope you choose to stick around. The answer to the question might not be as important as the reason the question is asked. I would suspect that most people that ask the question are not so happy being alive. Maybe it would not appear like that on the outside, but deep down inside their heart yearns. All I can say is God's love can change that. Blessings, Mark
LFW:
1. God makes the choice for all people. Those not selected for eternal life have grounds for complaint.
2. God invites all but only some respond. Those who don't respond don't have any grounds for complaint, they got what they wanted.
- Albert Einstein, 2004 | | Back to Top | | |
|
MsMe
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 2/20/2004 7:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for your reply. Yes it is quite true I am not happy to be alive. (I should probably also add here that I am also not suicidal.) I am close to 50 years old and have heard that "Jesus loves me, died for us...." since I was a teen. But you know I am hard to that now, and yes I do also have a yearning.
But I still also get angry and wonder why I had to be born to have to make the choice in the first place, since I did not ask to be born. And then I hear about all these trials and tribulations Christians go through....
But I take it there is no answer to the question regarding "I did not ask to be born" ?
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MsMe
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 2/20/2004 9:35 PM (GMT -6) | | | Well while I am asking questions I hope you don't mind if I ask one more...I find myself drawn to thinking about Jesus a lot. I also think however that I have been so hard for so long that I will never turn to God, so why do I even bother to think about this as I will never truly want to surrender my life to Jesus. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/23/2004 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MsMe
Well while I am asking questions I hope you don't mind if I ask one more...I find myself drawn to thinking about Jesus a lot. I also think however that I have been so hard for so long that I will never turn to God, so why do I even bother to think about this as I will never truly want to surrender my life to Jesus.
Hello MsMe, check out the good responses your getting over on the Answering the Skeptics (Apologetics) thread. - Peace Mark
Questions about Christianity | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/23/2004 2:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Mark: It is spiritual death (death of the soul) until we are born again (through baptism). Human nature has not been totally corrupted: but it is wounded in its natural powers, subject to ignorance,
[quote]
John: So Adam was omniscient?
Hello John, No, I don’t believe Adam was omniscient. I think you do a good job of pointing out those in the world that have hardened hearts, ignorant to the love of God. I think the irony is found in eating from the tree of knowledge and in turn gaining ignorance of God.
Back to the sinfull nature question, can you please help explain Romans 8. Thanks and Peace, Mark
Romans 8:1-25 (NIV)
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. ] Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
LFW:
1. God makes the choice for all people. Those not selected for eternal life have grounds for complaint.
2. God invites all but only some respond. Those who don't respond don't have any grounds for complaint, they got what they wanted.
- Albert Einstein, 2004 | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/25/2004 5:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Hi Mark,
The NIV translation of sarx as "sinful nature" is highly suspect, and reflects doctrinal bias on the part of the translators. The overwhelming majority of the translators render the term as "flesh," which varies somewhat in meaning according to the context in which it is used.
God bless,
JohnE
Hello John, does "somewhat" mean a little, kind of, close, certain extend? Does this mean our view on "sinful nature" is just somewhat different, that we are not that far apart? If so, hallelujah.
Peace, Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 2/25/2004 9:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Hi Mark,
The NIV translation of sarx as "sinful nature" is highly suspect, and reflects doctrinal bias on the part of the translators. The overwhelming majority of the translators render the term as "flesh," which varies somewhat in meaning according to the context in which it is used.
God bless,
JohnE
Hello John, does "somewhat" mean a little, kind of, close, certain extend? Does this mean our view on "sinful nature" is just somewhat different, that we are not that far apart? If so, hallelujah.
Peace, Mark
Hi Mark,
As I find scriptural support for the idea of sin as a "nature" to be insufficient to draw a conclusion, I do not think we are even close on the idea of a "sinful nature." A word study on the term, translated "flesh," would demonstrate that it has a more broad meaning than what is typically thought of as "sinful nature." For instance, when Jesus says "The bread that I will give them is my flesh..." The NIV, were it consistent, would have to say, "The breat that I will give them is my sinful nature."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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