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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
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| Posted 1/29/2004 5:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hello, I’m looking for some help witnessing to youth. I was originally going to post this under apologetics but found a parallel with the topic of original sin. I first would like to thank those of you that made contributions to the topic of original sin; you have already given me much insight and a wealth of resources for future study.
I don’t expect anyone to have the ultimate answer but simply seek an acceptable, logical response to the following statement:
“I did not ask to be born!”
The statement is usually followed with something in line to this:
“It would be a very evil God to put me in a world I was not asked to be born into, creating me as a born sinner into a world controlled by the god of this age. Doomed in a world full of evil and temptation often disguised as fun, which He then judges and condemns me to hell for being part of. I feel it is unjust to hold me accountable for God’s creation. He creates me with free will to choose but gives me very little or no concrete physical or scientific proof of His existence or why I was created with the propensity to sin, but I’m asked to have faith regardless. I was created with the nature to sin so naturally I sin. I’m asked not to use my five senses that make up my reality but instead to use my imagination that He exists in a make believe realm. And when I die, He will punish me and my loved ones in hell for eternity for making the wrong choices. I did not ask to be born, but I’m burning in hell anyways!”
Granted such statements often come from a hardened heart that’s used in defense to deflect love and hide the truth of a chosen sinful lifestyle, it still warrants a direct response that eludes me.
Blessings, Mark
LFW:
1. God makes the choice for all people. Those not selected for eternal life have grounds for complaint.
2. God invites all but only some respond. Those who don't respond don't have any grounds for complaint, they got what they wanted.
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John Earp
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| Posted 1/29/2004 5:54 PM (GMT -6) | | I believe the answer is found in Romans 1, 2, & 3.
quote:
“It would be a very evil God to put me in a world I was not asked to be born into, creating me as a born sinner into a world controlled by the god of this age.
I don't find the Bible to teach that people are "born sinners." Moral depravity is entered into voluntarily by all, as Romans 1, 2, and 3 make explicitly clear.
quote:
Doomed in a world full of evil and temptation often disguised as fun, which He then judges and condemns me to hell for being part of. I feel it is unjust to hold me accountable for God’s creation.
Actually, the Bible shows that we are held accountable for what we know, and that we are condemned to hell for sinning against whatever degree of light we have. God doesn't send anybody to hell because of ignorance; God sends them to hell because of their own willful sin.
quote:
He creates me with free will to choose but gives me very little or no concrete physical or scientific proof of His existence or why I was created with the propensity to sin, but I’m asked to have faith regardless.
According to Romans 1, all people are without excuse, for though they KNOW God exists, by virtue of creation, conscience, and commandment (Romans 1, 2, & 3), they all willfully choose to "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." For this reason, God gives them over to a depraved mind, to do those things that are unseemly. (Romans 1). In other words, God will not force anyone to live right, and will in fact confirm whatever choice you make. God hardens those who persistently reject his mercy.
quote:
I was created with the nature to sin so naturally I sin.
I find no scriptural support for such a ridiculous idea as a "sin nature."
quote:
I’m asked not to use my five senses that make up my reality but instead to use my imagination that He exists in a make believe realm.
No, actually you already know full well that God exists, you just don't want to serve Him, for that would require you to stop living for your own interests. The created order and your own conscience tell you that God exists, not your imagination.
quote:
And when I die, He will punish me and my loved ones in hell for eternity for making the wrong choices.
No, actually, as Romans 1, 2, & 3 make plain, you will not be sent to hell for making wrong choices, you will be sent to hell for your own willful violation of what you already know to be right (SIN).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tigress
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| Posted 1/30/2004 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
Do you honestly believe that your responses are going to help this kid get closer to Jesus? I mean I've even asked some of those questions before and your pat answers just don't cut it. Granted you're using Scripture to back it up, but I don't think it's as simple as all that. Not for a thinking person. Having faith in something you can't see, hear, smell, taste or touch isn't easy - especially when the pain you do see, hear and feel is so obvious and apparent.
Sparknheart,
I suppose it might help if you explained to these kids that God understood the human predicament, which is why He sent His Son to die for us. He knew we were in a no-win situation, so to bail us out, He took on Himself all the things we suffer, so that we wouldn't have to forever. I don't think God would have created us if there was no way for us to be saved and redeemed, because if there were no way, it would be cruel to create us with free will since there's always the possibility of going astray. But, because God did give us a way out, we can't accuse Him of cruelty any longer.
I guess I don't have much I can say about the faith issue though. I can't really even explain how I can have faith in Someone I can't see so I don't know how to argue that point. I guess if you heard Greg's sermon on Sunday, it might be good to explain to the kids how they can make the stuff that happenned in the Bible more real to them by reading the accounts and then visualizing them so it would seem like they were actually there when they happened. If they ask the Holy Spirit to guide them in this, I'm sure it would become a personal experience for them. That way, it would be just like they were there when everything really happened and they couldn't argue that it's not fair that they don't have the same advantage of knowing Jesus in the flesh like the disciples did.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 1/30/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
John,
Do you honestly believe that your responses are going to help this kid get closer to Jesus? I mean I've even asked some of those questions before and your pat answers just don't cut it. Granted you're using Scripture to back it up, but I don't think it's as simple as all that. Not for a thinking person. Having faith in something you can't see, hear, smell, taste or touch isn't easy - especially when the pain you do see, hear and feel is so obvious and apparent.
I think Paul the Apostle qualifies as "a thinking person." Based on the first three chapters of Romans, I find the typical atheist to simply doesn't WANT to admit the truth that God does in fact exist and that they therefore should serve Him.
I'm sincerely interested to know, Tigress, what do you think are Paul's main points in the first three chapters of Romans? Do you agree with him?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/30/2004 12:32 PM (GMT -6) | | I am curious as to why it is wrong for a loving person to quote scripture TO a person to explain a point of view to another person? It seems a lot of people on hear use the phrase " you shouldn't just quote scripture." I assume most people on this site believe in the Bible as somehow divinely inspired, so when it become so wrong to quote scripture to people?
Tigress: there are many things we have faith in in life that we cannot see or explain. A person doesn't have to have complete knowledge of something to have faith in it. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 2/1/2004 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tim
John Earp: I find no scriptural support for such a ridiculous idea as a "sin nature."
Eph 2:3 . . . by nature the children of wrath . . .
Willful criminals against God's holy and righteous law are "by nature" children of wrath, subject to God's righteous indignation for their willfull rebellion against what they know to be right.
quote:
Job 14:4Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one.
No dispute. But this says nothing of a "sin nature" per se, only that a person cannot change themselves apart from the inworking of the power of God, which of course I affirm to be the truth.
quote:
Job 15:14What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
I categorically affirm that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. However, if the above scripture is taken to be always and forever true, the Bible contradicts itself when it talks about some being in fact righteous:
1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
quote:
Job 25:4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?
All who are justifed are justified only one way - by faith.
quote:
Psa 51:5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
For a thought-provoking and different perspective on the proof-texts you have cited, see the following:
http://gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbstitle.htm
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tigress
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Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 2/2/2004 5:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
So Paul was being their judge, jury, and executioner. Okay. I should get offended at your insulting comment, that in answering from the Bible I am by definition being judgmental or am lacking in compassion. You certainly don't seem to be exhibiting compassion towards me, now, do you?
I'm sorry if I sound insensitive in my rebuke of your methods. That certainly is not my intention. Maybe I'm not able to see or hear how you would actually express these things because it's in writing. If I could hear your tone of voice I'd have a better idea of whether or not you're saying these things in a spirit of love and compassion rather than self-righteousness. You can say all of these things gently and sensitively and it would be fine. But you can say the exact same things with a conceited tone in your voice and it would ruin it. So, it's all in the presentation.
quote:
"What Scripture means for people today" is the same thing it meant for people in Paul's day. God's word has not changed. People will never recognize their need of a Savior until they first recognize that they have personally broken God's law.
How is it compassionate to not tell an alcoholic what they're doing is wrong and that they should change their ways?
You're right. I just think it's presumptuous of us to expect non-believers to accept that there are things they cannot see, when ever since they were born they were indoctrinated with the belief that if you can't see something, it's not really there. In Paul's day, people believed in things they couldn't see, so it was easier for him to preach about God to them, because he didn't have to get over the hurdle of having faith in the unseen, like we do today.
And don't go preaching at me about confronting people lovingly. I had to confront my own mother about her alcoholism so I know better than anyone about confronting people in love!
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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Truth Aficionado
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Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/4/2004 6:51 PM (GMT -6) | | After many weeks of Christian love, I let the young man I have been witnessing to feel the sharp sword of the Spirit (Romans 1-3). He squirmed as it penetrated his soul. He has not yet surrendered his life to Jesus but I feel he's taking steps in the right direction, he could use some prayers.
Thanks John, for pointing out Romans 1-3. It addresses much of man’s self-centered lifestyle and his volition to pursue sin. To surrender to Christ is to die to one’s old self, and to die to the pursuit of sin. To suppress the truth keeps sin alive.
Thanks Tigress for bringing love to the table. Most kids say they believe in God but they lack faith. So what are we teaching (or not) that seems to be proving so harmful and destructive to the youth of today. Either scripture is getting molded to fit our chosen lifestyle or we are hypocrites. You see the result of this in the disposable spouse world we live in. It is understood that the high rate of divorce in our country plays a major roll towards the problems our youth face today. I would say dysfunctional love is at the root of most social problems in America. So let us all pray to stay rooted and grounded in love.
P.S. I think the following helps somewhat in regards to faith in the unseen realm:
Romans 1:18-20 (NIV)
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Blessings, Mark
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 2/8/2004 7:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
How is it compassionate to not tell an alcoholic what they're doing is wrong and that they should change their ways?
I find no scriptural support for such a ridiculous idea as a "sin nature."
For a thought-provoking and different perspective on the proof-texts you have cited, see the following:
http://gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbstitle.htm
Hello John, I thought it was interesting that you mentioned using compassion in helping someone overcome alcoholism. As you might know, the AA program is based on Christian principles, having compassionate fellowship and the belief in a higher power. The very fist step in the 12 step program is to admit that you are powerless over alcohol; I find that the first step in Christianity is very similar in that we need to admit we are sinners and repent. In both cases one needs to humble them self and overcome self- denial.
One of the reasons that an alcoholic falls off the wagon after they become sober for a period is that things start going better in their life and they begin to believe that they are no longer powerless over alcohol. If you think it is ridiculous that we are not sinners by nature do you believe we are not powerless over sin without Christ? A. T. Overstreet sounds like the alcoholic who has become cured and is no longer powerless over alcohol, the special alcoholic, a neo-alcoholic. Might this be the same thinking in that one may no longer be powerless over sin by ones one choosing, a neo-Christian?
It is my belief that there was only one person that was removed from the stain of sin and his name was Jesus Christ, our savior.
If I told this young fellow that I have been witnessing to that he was not a born sinner, then why would he need Christ. He can just stop sinning on his own and become a good moral, loving atheist. I have found that the rejection of ones need for God is one of the greatest sins, so, that would rule out any atheist. I believe that one needs God and needs to believe in God and I disagree with O.T. Overstreets’ statement, “we are created in God’s image and God’s not a sinner so neither are we”. We are created in God’s IMAGE. We are not Gods and one proof of this is the fact that we are born sinners. I have yet to meet another human who has not sinned.
Blessings, Mark
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John Earp
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| Posted 2/8/2004 5:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Mark,
As Jesus said:
John 8:34 ¶ Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
And as I affirm the above emphatically, it does not follow that from my perspective anyone can simply stop sinning apart from the power of Christ in their life.
As to the issue of sin being a "nature," if true, it must follow that:
1. No one can ever stop sinning whatsoever, for it is part of being a human being.
2. God commands man, on pain of eternal death, to stop that which man can not possibly stop, due to his "sin nature."
In my view, sin is an action, not a "nature." Yes, as Jesus says in John 8:34-36, "he that commits sin is the slave of sin." Sin brings bondage (as in Romans 7), from which no one can be freed apart from the work of Christ in his heart.
As I said above in one of my replies to Tim, I emphatically affirm that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and that all children, upon reaching the age at which they are able to know right from wrong, will in fact choose to sin.
Your friend needs Christ because as a criminal (sinner) against God's righteous and holy law, he is in desperate need of God's pardoning grace. Saying to him that he was "born a sinner" only serves to give him the best excuse possible for his sin.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 2/9/2004 4:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Hi Mark,
In my view, sin is an action, not a "nature."
Hello John,
Do you consider our thoughts an action?
Peace, Mark
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John Earp
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| Posted 2/9/2004 7:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Hi Mark,
In my view, sin is an action, not a "nature."
Hello John,
Do you consider our thoughts an action?
Peace, Mark
Voluntary thoughts, yes. Involuntary thoughts (such as, for instance, seeing a nearly naked woman on a billboard) would not strictly speaking be an action on our part, unless the will consents, and one stares. Know what I mean?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 2/9/2004 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Voluntary thoughts, yes. Involuntary thoughts (such as, for instance, seeing a nearly naked woman on a billboard) would not strictly speaking be an action on our part, unless the will consents, and one stares. Know what I mean?
John, thanks for helping in my attempt to understand your believe that man does not have a sinful nature.
Do you believe we are born spiritually dead as part of the fall?
Do you believe that we suffer physical death is a result of the fall?
Do you believe we have the so called “God shaped vacuum in our hearts” as part of our separation from God, resulting from the fall of man?
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John Earp
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| Posted 2/9/2004 9:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
John, thanks for helping in my attempt to understand your believe that man does not have a sinful nature.
You're welcome.
quote:
Do you believe we are born spiritually dead as part of the fall?
I find Scripture universally to teach that "the soul that sins shall die." (See Ezekiel 18 in particular). That is, each person is responsible for his own spiritual death when he voluntarily chooses to sin. This is supported by Romans 1, 2, & 3 as well as many other passages in Scripture, such as the story of the Prodigal Son, in which the father says of his son, "This son of mine which was dead, is now alive; he was lost, and is now found."
Note that the son never lost his capacity to choose all the time that he was in the hog pen, and as long as he remained away from his father and in total rebellion against him, the Bible says he was "dead" and lost." Therefore, it would not appear to me that at least Jesus Christ (the narrator of the Prodigal Son story) believed a person was born dead in trespasses and sins. What sin is it to be born?
quote:
Do you believe that we suffer physical death is a result of the fall?
I'm honestly ambivalent about that question. It seems to me that spiritual death results from sin (that the wages of sin is death, always). I tend to think that our physical bodies were never intended to last forever, but again, I'm not dogmatic about this particular issue.
quote:
Do you believe we have the so called “God shaped vacuum in our hearts” as part of our separation from God, resulting from the fall of man?
I believe each person is his own original sinner, and as such, all do in fact experience separation from God as a result of their own choice to "suppress the truth in unrighteousness," and to not "retain the knowledge of God in their minds." Therefore, God gives them over to a depraved mind, as Romans 1 says. This view places the blame for sin precisely where the Bible does -- the individual sinner.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 2/9/2004 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Do you believe that we suffer physical death is a result of the fall?
I'm honestly ambivalent about that question. It seems to me that spiritual death results from sin (that the wages of sin is death, always). I tend to think that our physical bodies were never intended to last forever, but again, I'm not dogmatic about this particular issue.
Genesis 3:22 (NIV)
And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Life in the Garden of Eden was like living in heaven. Everything was perfect, and if Adam and Eve had obeyed God, they could have lived there forever. But after disobeying, Adam and Eve no longer deserved paradise, and God told them to leave. If they had continued to live in the garden and eat from the tree of life, they would have lived forever.
P.S. John, if you believe physical death is a result of personal sin and babies don't sin, why do they still die? - Blessings Mark
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John Earp
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| Posted 2/9/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
[quote]Originally posted by John Earp
Do you believe that we suffer physical death is a result of the fall?
I'm honestly ambivalent about that question. It seems to me that spiritual death results from sin (that the wages of sin is death, always). I tend to think that our physical bodies were never intended to last forever, but again, I'm not dogmatic about this particular issue.[quote]
Genesis 3:22 (NIV)
And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Good point. Like I said, I am not dogmatic about whether or not our physical bodies were ever meant to live forever. It is possible, I think, that they had been eating of the tree of life prior to their sin, for they were not forbidden to eat of the tree of life.
Also the tree of life turns up once again in the Book of Revelation as being in heaven/the New Jerusalem, and as giving life then. Further, in Proverbs the "tree of life" is referred to metaphorically. It seems to me that "tree of life" could be a metaphor for Christ.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 2/10/2004 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Hi again Mark,
I defintely do not believe that physical death is invariably a result of personal sin. I believe physical death is always is a result of our finite mortality. Babies die (like anyone else) because their physiology reaches a point not compatible with life.
Hello John, I agree that physical death is not the result of our personal sin. We inherited death as a tragic result of Adam's disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness after they eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay". Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.
Blessings, Mark
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