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|  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/20/2007 1:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | One my favorite songs in the whole wide world...
Bowie State University Gospel Choir Total Praise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVyVB_EPkE4&mode=related&search=
Which reminded me of a Responsive Reading that I remember from one of my old Baptist church roots...(Union Baptist). For the 3 years we were there, this was the responsive reading we did every Sunday...
I lift up my eyes to the mountains— where does my help come from?
My help comes from the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth.
He will not let your foot slip— he who watches over you will not slumber;
indeed, he who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep.
The LORD watches over you— the LORD is your shade at your right hand;
the sun will not harm you by day, nor the moon by night.
The LORD will keep you from all harm— he will watch over your life;
the LORD will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.
I remember being a child saying this every Sunday...Sunday after Sunday...wondering what possible impact this could have on my life. I wondered could this really be true. With all that I was experiencing as a child...I thought it was a lie.
My Lord...If I'd have only known!
Bless the Lord for his faithfulness to His Children.
Father, forgive me for I didn't know what I was doing.
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 7/20/2007 2:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/20/2007 2:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | Well, aren't we feeling Kafka-esque today? [Said with "church lady" voice] 
Dude, we already KNEW about this...right?
We KNEW this was the "absurdity" and "offense" that Kierkegaard talked about, right?
And of course, Paul...
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where are the wise? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let those who boast boast in the Lord."
And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power.
Right?
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/20/2007 2:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hmmmm...well...
What about the passage?
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 7/20/2007 2:46 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 7/20/2007 2:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/20/2007 2:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | Yeah. 1 Cor.
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/20/2007 2:51 PM (GMT -6) |   | The absurdity is that God Himself (Creator and Sustainer of ALL) could ever could be crucified OR CRUCIFIABLE...tasting death.
Isn't that right, Tom?
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/20/2007 2:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: I guess I'll have to step back from the line then. I can't cross into absurdity. I make it meaningful, or I don't make it.
Daaaaaaaaayam!
Well, bro. Be where you're at, right now. Love never fails. 
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/20/2007 3:31 PM (GMT -6) |   | The Knight of Faith (SK)
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/20/2007 3:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | My turn...
The incarnation is not at all "absurd."
But it is every bit "offensive." (I think that is GK Chesterton's comment: scandal.)
What might seem absurd is that God becomes man, while staying God, and saving us.
But the symmetry of that is offensive. We get saved. That is, we have been saved, are being saved and hope to be saved. (Both Sproul and Orthodoxy says that.) The symmetry is that we loose our lives and find them in Christ, bu the Spirit.
That's offensive because it is an afront to us, either if we don't want to die, or if we don't want to stay dead.
So like I said, it is not an absurdity, it is just powerfully offensive.
But it is symmetrical.
P.S. Why some insist that baptism is not a sacrament but is merely an ordinance or a testemony is maybe beyond me, but possibly an indication of how symmetrical or not some regard Christianity.
Hmmm.....
Taken as a whole, as symmetrical (Truth is its very asymmetrical, but I'm using 'symmetrical' to remind us that the Cross is in the center, with The Jesus part on one side and the Body of Christ part on the other, the recaptulation part on one side and the office part on the other.), the parts that might be part of perceiving it as absurd find their place and their context. It all fits.
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/20/2007 4:49:36 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/20/2007 3:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom, how much of what Nestruk was saying did you feel comfortable with?
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/20/2007 4:26:59 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/20/2007 5:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Two parts.......
All Christianity exalts humility. It should therefore not be a surprise if monastic and ascetical spirituality focus on humility. In the Gospel of St. Matthew (18:4) our Lord proclaims that "he who therefore will humble himself as this little child, he is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Elsewhere (23:12) our Lord says that "whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." The emphasis on humility may appear self-evident. Behind it, however, lies a reality of the nature of God to which few pay much attention. In the Incarnation two very core elements of any spirituality are clearly evidenced—the love and humility of God. The idea that humility is rooted in God may appear astonishing. The humility of God cannot, of course, be considered in the same light as ascetical humility, or any human form of humility. However, the human forms of humility are derived from the very nature of God, just as the commandment to love is rooted in God’s love for mankind God’s humility is precisely that being God he desires, he wills to be in communion with everything and everything is inferior to God. This has great theological significance, for it reveals the value of all created things, a value willed by God. There is even a parallel here with the saints who loved animals and flowers. And from this idea, an idea intrinsically derived from the Incarnation and kenosis of God the Son, one can clearly see the real Divine origin in action of Christ’s teaching about "others." In the very notion of a vertical spirituality a concern for others is presupposed. And while one is ascending to God—an abomination for Nygren—his fellow man must be included in the dimensions of spirituality. Through the Incarnation all forms of human existence are sanctified. Through the Incarnation both the love and the humility of God are made known. And man is to love God and fellow mankind because love contains absolute, positive value, a value derived because love is the very nature of God. And man is to experience humility, to become inflamed by humility precisely because humility belongs also to God and hence its value is derived from God. But to become filled innerly with love and humility is not easy. It demands not a mere acknowledgement of the fact that God is love and humility is Divine. Rather, it demands the complete purification of our inner nature by God. And this is the struggle, the spiritual warfare that must be waged to enter and maintain the reality of love and humility. The path of monasticism and asceticism is an authentic path, a path also ordained by our Lord.
http://www.romanity.org/htm/flo.01.en.the_ascetic_ideal_and_the_new_testament.01.htm
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/20/2007 5:20 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
MORE...
All Christianity exalts humility. It should therefore not be a surprise if monastic and ascetical spirituality focus on humility. In the Gospel of St. Matthew (18:4) our Lord proclaims that "he who therefore will humble himself as this little child, he is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Elsewhere (23:12) our Lord says that "whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." The emphasis on humility may appear self-evident. Behind it, however, lies a reality of the nature of God to which few pay much attention. In the Incarnation two very core elements of any spirituality are clearly evidenced—the love and humility of God. The idea that humility is rooted in God may appear astonishing. The humility of God cannot, of course, be considered in the same light as ascetical humility, or any human form of humility. However, the human forms of humility are derived from the very nature of God, just as the commandment to love is rooted in God’s love for mankind God’s humility is precisely that being God he desires, he wills to be in communion with everything and everything is inferior to God. This has great theological significance, for it reveals the value of all created things, a value willed by God. There is even a parallel here with the saints who loved animals and flowers. And from this idea, an idea intrinsically derived from the Incarnation and kenosis of God the Son, one can clearly see the real Divine origin in action of Christ’s teaching about "others." In the very notion of a vertical spirituality a concern for others is presupposed. And while one is ascending to God—an abomination for Nygren—his fellow man must be included in the dimensions of spirituality. Through the Incarnation all forms of human existence are sanctified. Through the Incarnation both the love and the humility of God are made known. And man is to love God and fellow mankind because love contains absolute, positive value, a value derived because love is the very nature of God. And man is to experience humility, to become inflamed by humility precisely because humility belongs also to God and hence its value is derived from God. But to become filled innerly with love and humility is not easy. It demands not a mere acknowledgement of the fact that God is love and humility is Divine. Rather, it demands the complete purification of our inner nature by God. And this is the struggle, the spiritual warfare that must be waged to enter and maintain the reality of love and humility. The path of monasticism and asceticism is an authentic path, a path also ordained by our Lord. (o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/21/2007 6:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | Some thoughts...
Humility and Servanthood are of God. (Didn't Jesus say this plain?)
God SERVES Creation as its basis, sustenace, and telos.
At all times.
The Personhood of God grounds all created things. (Hence, aesthetic experience and self-relationship being essential to all levels of reality.)
Thus, Christ was a recapitulation of massive proportion! 
God serves because God chooses to...because God is FREE.
And God freely honors his choices.
And in so doing, freely and radically identifies with the other...
though remaining completely FREE of that other. (Healthy dispassion)
He exemplifies the maxims:
"With great power comes great responsibility"
and...
"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Form of extended self-relationship)
This just makes sense, I think.
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." Post Edited (Theoria) : 7/21/2007 6:39:34 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/21/2007 6:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | And this thought just hit me. It seems like God the Son tasted death long before the Cross. If we are speaking about God the Son having personal experience of death and decay, then wouldn't the continual cell death going on in the human body fit the bill as well? I'm assuming that Jesus did shed dead skin cells from time to time. Isn't that God the Son experiencing "death" in it's most universal form?
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/21/2007 6:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | POW: (emphases mine) What might seem absurd is that God becomes man, while staying God, and saving us.
Actually, B., that's QUITE absurd to more than a few.
"Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/21/2007 9:27 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Theoria said... POW: (emphases mine) What might seem absurd is that God becomes man, while staying God, and saving us.
Actually, B., that's QUITE absurd to more than a few.
Then, when you have kids, you make very certain that they get a good catechesis!
Byzantine liturgy, itself, is a very good catecheis! But start 'em out right.
Sing this stuff!
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/21/2007 9:35:52 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/21/2007 9:30 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Theoria said...POW: (emphases mine) What might seem absurd is that God becomes man, while staying God, and saving us.Actually, B., that's QUITE absurd to more than a few.
But I STILL suspect that it is those who are not driven by a felt need to be saved who are stand-off-ish about this. And I suspect that those who know their missery the most know that it has to be God and that he has to also be one of us.
Anything less is not saving.
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/21/2007 9:34 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Theoria said... And this thought just hit me. It seems like God the Son tasted death long before the Cross. If we are speaking about God the Son having personal experience of death and decay, then wouldn't the continual cell death going on in the human body fit the bill as well? I'm assuming that Jesus did shed dead skin cells from time to time. Isn't that God the Son experiencing "death" in it's most universal form?
This is good, basic Sunday School stuff that my kids get, and that we read responsively in Church:
LORD'S DAY 15
37 Q. What do you understand by the word "suffered"?
A. That during his whole life on earth, but especially at the end, Christ sustained in body and soul the anger[zeal] of God against the sin of the whole human race.^1
This he did in order that, by his suffering as the only atoning sacrifice,^2 he might set us free, body and soul, from eternal condemnation,^3 and gain for us God's grace, righteousness, and eternal life.^4
^1 Isa. 53; 1 Pet. 2:24; 3:18 ^2 Rom. 3:25; Heb. 10:14; 1 John 2:2; 4:10 ^3 Rom. 8:1-4; Gal. 3:13 ^4 John 3:16; Rom. 3:24-26
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/22/2007 7:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | | NEW TODAY ON INTERNET RADIO (PODCAST!)
The Illumined Heart Podcast
GOD: Essence and Energies
Posted Sunday, July 22, 2007
In this program, Steve and Kevin conduct this fascinating interview with professor and author Dr. David Bradshaw--professor of Philosophy and the Philosophy of Religion at the University of Kentucky. Dr. Bradshaw explains for us the distinction between God’s “Essence and Energies”. Understanding this distinction is the key to a major difference between eastern and western Christianity. You should listen to this two or three times--trust us!
http://audio.ancientfaithradio.com/illuminedheart/IH23-DBradshawEssEn_072207.mp3
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