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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 2/11/2004 5:25 PM (GMT -6) |   | Dr Boyd et al,
I placed the following question on the “Questions About Christianity Thread—The Problem of Job" a few weeks back, and I still need some help working through the question
I have heard Dr.Boyd discuss Job's "theology" referencing many of the obviously wrong things that Job concludes about God and comparing those "wrong" statements with the statement Job made in Chapter 1, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away"(vs. 21). The inference that I have drawn seems to be that the validity of the Chapter 1 statement is called into question because Job's theology is so errant in subsequent chapters.
However, vs. 22 says that "In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong." Indicating that "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" paradigm in vs. 21 is "accurate" theology on Job's part.???
Assuming this is the case, are we given any clues elsewhere that renders this apparent mode of action in relating to man on the part of God less arbitrary than it appears in this verse?
Thanks,
John
The following was my attempt to work through “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away” issue in Dr. Boyd's absence (on mission trip) on the "Let’s Solve The Problem of Evil—Carlie Was Murdered…" Thread. I still need some help here.
Sorry Borg,
I forgot to respond to your Scriptural citation from Job. I appreciate you focusing the issue on Scripture. Sometimes the Discussion Board gets so “philosophical” that we forget to come back to Scripture.
Regarding Job 1:20-22, we must “paint with very fine strokes” in our interpretation. The best commentary we have on the words of Job (and his friends) comes from the Almighty, Himself (cp. 38:2—“Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?”). God rebukes what Job has said. In essence God declares Job “has not a clue.” Job has, on the one hand, “DARKENED THE COUNSEL OF THE LORD.” And on the other hand we are told that Job “did not sin” (1:22, 2:10) and that Job “spoke rightly” (42:7).
Resolution of the two poles is implied in the phrase, “Job spoke ‘rightly.’” Obviously speaking “rightly” does not mean that Job spoke “correctly.” Else, God would not have rebuked him. Furthermore, Job went on to accuse God of many horrendous things. So, the rebuke (from God) alone calls in to question anything Job has said prior to chapter 38.
Now let’s bring out the really fine brush. What about 1:22 and 2:10—“In all this Job did not sin with his lips”—which immediately follows the cultural mantra, “The Lord gives and the Lord takes away”?
Recall, Job was not privy to the prologue, as it were. A major point of the story and the foundation of God’s confidence in Job was God’s expectation that Job would not assume God was behind His calamity and curse God—EVEN DESPITE JOB’S IGNORANCE of who was really behind the calamity (Satan) as per the heavenly prologue!!!
What was the “sin” that Job did not commit?—“Charging God with wrong doing.” Job did not curse God. So, Job passed the test to this point. However, in light of the many “incorrect” things Job said about God, it is clear that the hermanuetical line is draw between sin and pretense (of Job’s friends) and not between sin and doctrinal correctness.
Ultimately, I find comfort in a God who declares He can redeem whatever Satan throws at Him—Hence, the last Chapter of Job—God redeemed. No doubt, “REDEEMED HOW I LOVE TO PROCLAIM IT!!!” is the final mantra of Job. The game was tough, but God picked a winner in Job.
I have much more admiration for a hitter (God) who hits “real” pitches from an ace pitcher (The Satan of Scripture) than I have for a hitter who hits pitches from a preprogrammed pitching machine (Calvin’s Satan).
For me one of the most incredible revelations in Scripture (via the author of Job, not to mention the author of Genesis, the Gospels, etc.) is that God doesn’t have to “program” Satan in order to redeem. God can “knock it out of the park” regardless of the “heat” Satan puts across the plate.
God doesn’t have to have a bit in the horse mouth to break the horse.
God doesn’t have to know your next move to beat you at chess.
God doesn’t have to have a rudder to steer the ship.
So, a (very real) maverick, cavalier, arrogant, erratic, capricious angel shows up and challenges God to a duel hoping to embarrass Him in front of the heavenly host and God steps up to the plate and says “show me your stuff.” Now that’s a God I can “shave my head and worship” as did Job. And I declare with Job, “There is no way God did this to me. My redemption is Real and not a charade!”
Any other thoughts ???
John
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 2/17/2004 6:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Dr. Boyd,
Thanks for your comments.
I am a “shade tree theologian” at best . I have read most, if not all, of your stuff, but the Open “system” is stll relatively new to me, and I am trying to gain confidence interpreting Scripture consistent with the insights you have provided and what I now believe to be “true” as the Spirit has guided over the past couple of years.
BTW, I hope to fly up with my wife and visit your church in a couple of months or so. We want to catch one of Garrison Keilor’s Prairie Home Companion productions. As I told my wife, it will be a great weekend getaway—My favorite theologian and favorite pagan in the same city.
May the Lord add to your number,
John
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/20/2004 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | | hey guys, perhaps I read through it too quickly, but I didn't catch how that resolves the problem. "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord. Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God." 1:20, 21
"You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and not accept adversity? In all this Job did not sin with his LIPS." 2:10
"Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had knwon him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him FOR ALL THE ADVERSITY that THE LORD HAD brought on him." 42:11
You cannot get away from that fact that Satan, though evil, wicked, disastorous, cunning, and tying his best to destroy God's redemptive plan; is on a leash. And God holds this leash tightening the choke chain if he dare try to move too close, or too far.
John "Resolution of the two poles is implied in the phrase, “Job spoke ‘rightly.’” Obviously speaking “rightly” does not mean that Job spoke “correctly.” Else, God would not have rebuked him. Furthermore, Job went on to accuse God of many horrendous things. So, the rebuke (from God) alone calls in to question anything Job has said prior to chapter 38"- NO. God rebuked him for the things that he did wrong, and yet there were still things in which Job was correct in saying. Where do you draw this line that just because God chastizes him for the horrendous things he has said, He is descrediting everything he has said? That doesn't make sense. Just because Peter was wrong when he spoke about the Gentiles, does that mean we discredit everything he has to say? NO.
"Ultimately, I find comfort in a God who declares He can redeem whatever Satan throws at Him—Hence, the last Chapter of Job—God redeemed"- Then I suppose it's a good thing that truth isn't based off of our comforts, ideals, etc. For if it were; 1) very relativistic, and 2) I find more comfort in a God who has Satan on a leash, and a pretty small leash at that, not able to do anything outside of God's soveriegn will.
Hope you read this.
Blessings,
Borg | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 2/21/2004 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Borg,
I have responded to your post by starting 3 new threads under THEOLOGICAL Q&A. Unfortunately I posted them backwards.
Read in the following order and it will make more sense.
1. Calvinism: The Real Root of Relativism
2. God has Satan on a Leash ?
3. Bad Theology 101: Job and Peter
Thanks for your investment of time
John | | Back to Top | | |
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