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|  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 5/26/2007 8:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
Some reading (from Christos Yannaras, "The Distinction Between Essence and Energies and its Importance for Theology"—http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/yannaras.html)
St. Maximus the Confessor uses as an image and an example of such communion the human voice, which being one is participated in by many, and is not swallowed up by the multitude. If by taking this example we can arbitrarily consider human reason as essence, then we can say that the voice represents the energy of the essence of reason, the possibility for us to participate in the essence of reason as the voice reveals and communicates it, to participate, all of us who hear the same voice, in the same essence of the one reason — without this communion becoming our identification with the essence of reason, and without the fragmentation of the essence in as many parts as there are participants in the reason through the voice. Reason, expressed personally, remains unified and indivisible, while at the same time, it is singularly participated by all .
If we should insist on this example of the voice and reason we could clarify one more observation relative to the possibilities of participating in the essence through the energies. The voice certainly represents a revelation of the energy of reason homogenous to the essence of reason and makes possible a direct participation in reason, but a revelation of the energy of reason can also take place from within essences heterogenous to reason: it is possible to formulate into reason other essences such as writing, color, music and marble.
This example indicates that we can speak (together with St. Maximus) about two forms of energy of the same essence or nature: one form which is, as we called it, homogenous to the nature of the one who causes the energy (an ecstatic self-offering of nature in terms of personal otherness); and the other form which reveals itself out of essences heterogenous to the nature of the one who causes the energy, an energy that is effective on things external, according to which the actor acts on objects outside of himself and heterogenous, and obtains a result, which is made up of preexisting matter and is foreign to his own substance.
Accordingly, God's homogenous energy (to use St. Maximus' distinction) is revealed in the Church's experience of divine grace, which is uncreated (heterogenous to creatures and homogenous to God) and through which God is wholly participated in and participated singularly by all , remaining simple and indivisible, offering to the communicant that which He (God) possesses by nature except essential identity and elevating man to the rank of communicant of the divine nature , according to the word of Scripture (II Peter 1:4). On the other hand, the revelation of God's energy in essences heterogenous to God is seen in the character of beings as creatures , created by divine energy. The personal logos of these creatures (a logos of power, wisdom and art), even though it is characteristic to each one of these creatures, in terms of the infinite variety of essences, reveals the singular wholeness of the one divine energy and witnesses to the one, simple and indivisible God.
As for man, we can probably say that the concept of homogenous energy is applicable to the power of love and to the erotic ecstasy of self-giving in terms of which the existential truth about man is made known . This is the mystery of the human nature and of the human person as singular otherness — when man totally belongs to the loved one and is willingly embraced by him entirely . This homogenous energy, however, interprets also the reality of the human body in terms of the singular otherness of each person: the body is par excellence the personal differentiation of the physical energies, the possibility of a meeting and a communion between the created energy of the human essence and the uncreated energy of the Grace of God. As for the revelation of the energy of man through the heterogenous essences of man, it concerns the variety of human creations , in the works of human art, wisdom, and power.
The fundamental fact observed and verified in the distinction of St. Maximus between the homogenous energy of an essence or nature and its heterogenous appearance is that both of these forms of expressing the energy reveal the nature or essence as the singular and unified content of the person. The personal differentiation of the physical energies (the uniqueness and dissimilarity of each human body, as well as the absolute otherness of each erotic event and the differentiation of creative expressions, for example, the music of Bach from the music of Mozart or the painting of Van Gogh from that of Goya) distinguishes the nature without dividing it, it reveals the manner by which nature is — and this manner is its personal singularity and otherness. The energies or distinctions disclose and reveal the catholicity of nature, as content of the person.
In the distinction of nature and energies Orthodox theology sees the very presupposition for a knowledge of God, as well as of man and of the world. If we reject this distinction and if we accept, with the Roman Catholics, the intellectual leap to the essence itself — an active divine essence — then the only possible relation of the world to God is the rational connection between cause and effect, a connection that leaves unexplained the ontological reality of the world, the formation of matter and its essential character.
For Orthodox theology matter is not a reality that simply has its cause in God. Matter is the substantiation of the will of God, the result of the personal energy of God; and it remains active as the revelatory reason of divine energy. St. Gregory of Nyssa says that all things were not reshaped from some subsisting matter into phenomena, but the divine will became the matter and the essence of creation. The will of God is an act, and the act of God is His word, for in God the act is word . The word of God which expresses His will is substantiated directly as a substance and a formulation of creation.
Matter, therefore, constitutes the substantiation of the divine will. The logoi of matter, that is to say, its types or forms , reflect the creative logoi of the divine conceptions and volitions. In its own organic content, matter is the result of the union of rational qualities whose convergence and union defines the substance of sensory things. The rational formulation of matter refutes from the start the ontic autonomous character of things ; matter is not the what of physical reality, the material which receives shape and form to reveal the essence, but the convergence of the rational qualities, their coordination into the how of a unique harmony which constitutes the type or the form of things. The whole cosmic reality, the innumerable variety of kinds of essences are not the what of objective observation and rational conception; they are not the abstract effect of a rationally conceived active cause, but the how of the personal harmony of rational qualities, a musical harmony constituting a controlled and sublime hymn to the power which controls the universe.
This continuously active personal harmony of the world reveals the direct and energetic presence of God in the world as personal will and energy (and not as essence). It is an endlessly active invitation to a personal relationship with the personal God-Logos through the logoi of things. This active invitation is not essentially identified with the one who invites nor with the energy of the caller; the reason and the will of God is not identified with the created things themselves, just as the will of the artist is not identified with the product of his art, with the result of his personal creative energy. But the work of art is the substantiation and incarnation of the personal reason and will of the artist; it is the active call and possibility of a personal relationship with the creator through the logos of his creations. The work of art is in essence and in energy different from the artist (the art in the artistic is one thing, and quite another is the art in the person who undertakes it , as St. Basil points out).
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/26/2007 11:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | | This is difficult reading. I have the best success with the last few paragraphs.
Thanks for posting it, Tom.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 5/26/2007 3:35:38 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/26/2007 2:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | Great stuff, Tom. Stuff for thought.
Think about this stuff in the context of Mentalism and Creatio Continua. Wow.
Praying for you, Tom.
Be well!  "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/27/2007 2:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/28/2007 1:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | | I posted on the "beautiful math" thread, and felt some obligation bo do some poking around on Google for "immutability" -- and found some quotes on this board in my old posts. Here...
2. from LINK ( www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/byzantine_theology_j_meyendorf.htm )
quote:
"Theopaschism" — the acceptance of formulae which affirm that the "Son of God died in the flesh" — illustrates how distinct the concepts of "hypostasis" and "nature" or "essence" really are. The distinction is stressed by one of the main Chalcedonian theologians of the age of Justinian, Leontius of Jerusalem: "The Logos," writes Leontius, "is said to have suffered according to the hypostasis, for within His hypostasis He assumed a passible [human] essence besides His own impassible essence, and what can be asserted of the [human] essence can be asserted of the hypostasis."9 What this implies is that the characteristics of the divine essence — impassibility, immutability, etc. — are not absolutely binding upon the personal, or hypostatic, existence of God. Later we shall see the importance of this fact for the patristic and Byzantine understanding of God. Meanwhile on the level of soteriology, the affirmation that the Son of God indeed "died in the flesh" reflected — better than any other Christological formula — the boundlessness of God’s love for man, the reality of the "appropriation" by the Logos of fallen and mortal humanity — i.e., the very mystery of salvation. (o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/28/2007 1:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/28/2007 1:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Not friendly to orthodoxy (actually it seems to be a reactionary RCC site that says EO is the anti-Christ), not understanding what is infront of its nose, but pointing to useful lines of distinction--even if not realizing the significance of those distinctions: --> http://www.christianorder.com/features.html
"D."?
. . . . . . . . . .
As Georges Florovsky once remarked, while Catholics and Protestants speak a similar language, there is fundamentally no “common universe of discourse” between East and West. This does not mean that understanding is impossible – but it explains the great difficulties involved in such dialogue, and it helps to account for the comparatively slow progress of ecumenical understanding between East and West. http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/2006/12/michael-pomazansky-orthodox-dogmatic.html
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 5/28/2007 2:48:04 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 5/29/2007 7:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | POW: As Georges Florovsky once remarked, while Catholics and Protestants speak a similar language, there is fundamentally no “common universe of discourse” between East and West. This does not mean that understanding is impossible – but it explains the great difficulties involved in such dialogue, and it helps to account for the comparatively slow progress of ecumenical understanding between East and West.
Doc's metaphysic may be the key.
I think that it is.
The Process/Orthodox dialogue that's been held has been good...but with Greg's trinitarian reconstruction...it could be spectacular!
My hunch is that Greg just never thought about how his metaphysic could apply with the idea of essence/energies distinction because Greg didn't think much about Eastern Orthodoxy when he did his doctoral dissertation. Maybe?
If I'm right about the possible explanatory power of Greg's stuff, it can help show how the Spirit proceeds from Father only...AND from Father and Son. (Dispositional Trinitarianism)
And...
his stuff can help the West understand more about the Essence/Energies stuff.
I dunno. It seemed to work for me. Very well.
Oh, well. One can always hope, yes?  "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/12/2007 10:25 PM (GMT -6) |   |
MANY said... It seems to me that the same essence/energies distinction we use to describe our access to God (we experience his energies but not his essence) applies to our access of all things. I don't have access to my wife's 'essence'. All I have access to is her energies. I can't get inside of her essence and view it, experience it, or examine it. I'm limited to her communications and energies. So I don't see what the essence/energies distinction says that's UNIQUE about God. So...?
Tom
I think you are right, Tom. Your thinking is sharp and your explanation is clear. I agree.
So (as far as my meger abilities go) that is not unique to God. *If anyone's brain is more awake than mine, and you can explain otherwise...please step up and do so.*
But, then, what's the deal? 'Cuz there is one.
Such distinctions are common back to Basil. And, "heck," they are biblical too! Part of the hoopla is more than just the facts.
Part of it is politics. A scholastic version of Thomism attacked the spirituality of the Church, and attacked it forcefully. The fact is that the attack fixed its crosshairs on the monastics. But what was attacked applies to every Christian in every time. At issue is whether ANY Christian can partake of the divine life of God through Christ and in the Holy Spirit. Can we "dance" with God -- as one sermon I heard recently said. Does God give his spirit to us to indwell us REALLY? And....along with this, necessarily comes the question of whether mankind is capable of handing this. Can we be like the burning bush and contain God on the throne of our hearts, also without burning up? Can our lives be the holy of holies, the temple of God.
All of these phrases hardly seem strange or foreign enough to merit becoming questions, as the answers are all Sunday School songs from Calvary Baptist when I was in kindergarten!
But to the scholastics attacking, the opinion was that man could ONLY know God in their intellect. God's essence was unknowable directly, in their position. But through the intellect that essence could be known. (Was it "Barlaam" who attacked Gregory Palamas?)
Palamas responded by affirming that God lets himself be known directly, even if being unknowable in essence.
We can share in the Trinitarian relationship of God, even if only by grace through Christ. And we are designed for this. God reaches out, and we can respond because before the foundation of the world we were planned in Christ.
So the energies/essence thing is not limited to God -- I guess.
But what is simply wonderfully worth shouting from the mountaintops is that we can know God -- really know God.
The historical politics can be interesting. But what matters, and moves me about this is that this is about the here and know. It defines man's meaning and potential. And it defines what life in Christ really is.
What shall separate us from the love of Christ?
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 |  Corey Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1893 | Posted 7/12/2007 10:46 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/12/2007 10:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Tom,
For me, personally, this means that the "fruit" of the Spirit is not a list of multiple things that I'm supposed to do on my own -- and definitely not a list of things that sadly I can't succeed in, at all. It's singular, imho. Its growth and life brought about in me, with my cooperation and effort, BY GOD. The Father wills, the Son does, the Spirit perfects. God says it, and on the other end of the line is ME! Participating in it.
I am not alone.
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/13/2007 7:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | Good stuff, y'all.
My question. How is "matter/energy" in Creation related to God's energies?
Maybe this is better way to ask: How are God's energies related to creaturely essence?
Let's make this as clear as we can.
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.Post Edited (UNISON) : 7/13/2007 7:42:46 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/13/2007 7:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | You'd be very helpful here, B.  "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/13/2007 7:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here's my thought:
If there God's energies continually define and constitute the "being/becoming" of all creaturely essence (such that creaturely essence can only "exist" through the power/constancy of divine energies)...and God's energies can be said to be "God" in some manner...what does this mean?
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:09 AM (GMT -6) |   |
UNISON said... Good stuff, y'all.
My question. How is "matter/energy" related to God's energies?
Maybe this is better way to ask: How are God's energies related to creaturely essence?
Let's make this as clear as we can.
Energies.
I was just going to say that God's *actions* can be seen in BOTH the making and the sustaining of things. We are made and sustained. But Yannaras goes a step further by pointing out that what God does with things that exist of which effect we can also see also qualifies.
So, we have "direct object" acts of creatoin and sustaining and "indirect object" acts of acting upon.
.
But the original quote at the top of the thread is where I was getting that. So, here's another LINK:
MIGHT I SUGGEST THAT WE LOOK AT THESE FEW PARAGRAPHS FROM THE ABOVE? !!!
This example indicates that we can speak (together with St. Maximus) about two forms of energy of the same essence or nature: one form which is, as we called it, homogenous to the nature of the one who causes the energy (an ecstatic self-offering of nature in terms of personal otherness); and the other form which reveals itself out of essences heterogenous to the nature of the one who causes the energy, an energy that is effective on things external, according to which the actor acts on objects outside of himself and heterogenous, and obtains a result, which is made up of preexisting matter and is foreign to his own substance.
Accordingly, God's homogenous energy (to use St. Maximus' distinction) is revealed in the Church's experience of divine grace, which is uncreated (heterogenous to creatures and homogenous to God) and through which God is wholly participated in and participated singularly by all , remaining simple and indivisible, offering to the communicant that which He (God) possesses by nature except essential identity and elevating man to the rank of communicant of the divine nature , according to the word of Scripture (II Peter 1:4). On the other hand, the revelation of God's energy in essences heterogenous to God is seen in the character of beings as creatures , created by divine energy. The personal logos of these creatures (a logos of power, wisdom and art), even though it is characteristic to each one of these creatures, in terms of the infinite variety of essences, reveals the singular wholeness of the one divine energy and witnesses to the one, simple and indivisible God.
As for man, we can probably say that the concept of homogenous energy is applicable to the power of love and to the erotic ecstasy of self-giving in terms of which the existential truth about man is made known . This is the mystery of the human nature and of the human person as singular otherness — when man totally belongs to the loved one and is willingly embraced by him entirely . This homogenous energy, however, interprets also the reality of the human body in terms of the singular otherness of each person: the body is par excellence the personal differentiation of the physical energies, the possibility of a meeting and a communion between the created energy of the human essence and the uncreated energy of the Grace of God. As for the revelation of the energy of man through the heterogenous essences of man, it concerns the variety of human creations , in the works of human art, wisdom, and power.
WHAT DO YOU SEE THERE?
The third paragraph is worth coming back to. Wow. But let's look at the second.
WHAT DO YOU SEE HERE, BELOW?
In the second paragraph I note (that's the "indirect" verb part) where it says "reveals...witnesses to" and then direct my mind's eye to FLOWERS as an example of this revelation of God.
SEE the NPR "Speaking of Faith radio program!
Transcript of Audio Program
Billboard:
Krista Tippett, host: I'm Krista Tippett. Today, "Restoring the Senses: Life, Gardening, and an Orthodox Easter." Theologian Vigen Guroian experiences Easter as a call to our senses. This hour, we'll explore his Eastern Orthodox sensibility that is at once more mystical and more earthy than the Christianity dominant in Western culture. And Vigen Guroian does real theology in his garden as richly as in church.
Mr. Vigen Guroian: I'm walking in my garden and all of a sudden, overnight, something has bloomed, maybe the honeysuckle, maybe the rugosa roses, or maybe it's just the cabbage in the vegetable garden. And I don't even see it, but I know it's present. I feel its presence. No, I, I smell its presence. I'm aware of it. For many of us, that's an experience like that of experiencing God in prayer.
Ms. Tippett: This is Speaking of Faith. Stay with us.
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/restoringthesenses/transcript.shtml
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/13/2007 8:25:08 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom mentioned him and his wife. And Tom also asked whether energies are just about God, or whether they are also about mankind and other creatures.
I think he'll like the third paragraph.
Remember that from above there are two kinds that are being tracked: homogenous energy and heterogenous.
As for man, we can probably say that the concept of homogenous energy is applicable to the power of love and to the erotic ecstasy of self-giving in terms of which the existential truth about man is made known. This is the mystery of the human nature and of the human person as singular otherness — when man totally belongs to the loved one and is willingly embraced by him entirely. This homogenous energy, however, interprets also the reality of the human body in terms of the singular otherness of each person: the body is par excellence the personal differentiation of the physical energies, the possibility of a meeting and a communion between the created energy of the human essence and the uncreated energy of the Grace of God. As for the revelation of the energy of man through the heterogenous essences of man, it concerns the variety of human creations, in the works of human art, wisdom, and power.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/13/2007 8:20:53 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:23 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ok.
So are beings who are created and continually sustained by divine energy to referred to as "God" in some manner? And if so, in what manner?
I just want to be clear on this. "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | If the "heterogenous essence" of human beings is STILL truly relationships of divine energy at it's base...
what does that mean? "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | No, it's not. "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNIty. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to SONship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:39 AM (GMT -6) |   |
UNISON said... If the "heterogenous essence" of human beings is STILL truly relationships of divine energy at it's base...
what does that mean? Are you rather abstractly saying that it "IS" relationships of d.e.? (like saying that light IS particles and waves)
I don't want that kind of philosophy-speak.
.
Creatures are creatures, and our relationships involve us. (We are not robots.)
So... while "heterogenous essence" of human beings have "at base" divine energy that is not all that is said about them. Remember, we are talking about music and flower arranging here!
Flower arranging is an expression of our essence which interacts with the flower which itself is both a homogeneous expression of God's essence in his creation, and a heterogenous expression in creation for us to see, and through which for us to make our lives full of eucharistic thanksgiving and worship.
Clear?
(Good stuff. Keep it simple, and familiar.)
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/13/2007 10:09:38 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:40 AM (GMT -6) |   |
UNISON said... No, it's not. Not true, or not clear?
-and-
Did my choosing flowers as a for-instance help? (I suspect if such familiar examples are used it will help me.)
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | | .........FROM ABOVE.......
Mr. Vigen Guroian:
I'm walking in my garden and all of a sudden, overnight, something has bloomed, maybe the honeysuckle, maybe the rugosa roses, or maybe it's just the cabbage in the vegetable garden. And I don't even see it, but I know it's present. I feel its presence. No, I, I smell its presence. I'm aware of it. For many of us, that's an experience like that of experiencing God in prayer.
.
Mr. Guroian:
Look, when I get into the garden in the spring, and I'm getting ready for it here, it comes pretty early in central Virginia — what am I doing during Lent, in particular? I'm digging out weeds that have died. I'm cleaning out the garden. It's a messy business and it's not terribly pleasant. But in the task of very doing it, my senses are being brought alive. I'm attuning my body. I'm cleansing my soul. I'm making myself ready to receive the gift.
.
Ms. Tippett: And this is so foreign, right, to the way Christianity has infused American culture? It's a different way of being Christian.
Mr. Guroian: Oh, of course it is. Well, for example, I'm not particularly interested in conflating, correlating a reading of the Genesis account of creation with the latest scientific theory. I think of the first chapter of Genesis as a divine litany. Something is happening and then God says, as a respondent, he takes both the role of liturgist and respondent. He says, "This is good," or "This is beautiful." Actually, the Hebrew word tov could mean either "good" or "beautiful." And the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which was the Old Testament of the early church, translates it "beautiful" in the Greek, not "good."
Ms. Tippett: So God saw what He had made, those passages, and — as the Jews had translated…
Mr. Guroian: And then God says, "This is beautiful." That's the response.
Ms. Tippett: Beautiful. Mm-hmm.
Mr. Guroian: So in a sense, God is singing creation into existence. I think C.S. Lewis caught this, had his own deep sense of this when he wrote The Magician's Nephew, in which Aslan, the great lion, the great god lion, sings the creation of Narnia, brings Narnia into existence in hymn, in song. It just seems to me that that way of understanding creation is different.
Ms. Tippett: Is different and, and simply would…
Mr. Guroian: It means that — that the song never ends. And words have been added to the song, but it's still the song. And think about throughout the Old Testament, from Genesis through the prophets, the creation itself is, is really depicted as a great temple in which worship is to be done. God sets the foundations. God stretches the heavens as a canopy. And we're here to make the song of creation, the liturgy of creation, and new creation manifest, visible, audible in the world.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/13/2007 8:57:36 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/13/2007 8:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | HERE'S ANOTHER PARAGRAPH FROM YANNARAS, THAT WAS NOT POSTED AT THE TOP OF THE THREAD:
"The problem of the distinction between essence and energies determined definitely and finally the differentiation of the Latin West from the Orthodox East. The West rejected the distinction, desiring to protect the idea of simplicity in the divine essence, since rational thought cannot accept the antinomy of a simultaneous existential identity and otherness, a distinction that does not mean division and fragmentation. For the western mind (expressed either with the directness of Thomistic rationalism or with the subordination of the patristic texts to a priori interpretations, as in the case of Fr. Garrigues) God is defined only in terms of His essence; whatever is not essence does not belong to God; it is a creature of God, the result of divine essence. Consequently, the energies of God are either identified with the essence, which is active (actus purus), or else any external manifestation of theirs is regarded as necessarily heteroessential, i.e. a created result of the divine cause.29"
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/13/2007 8:59:20 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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