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victoryword
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 2/18/2004 5:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | I need some help and insight from Open Theists and those familiar with the Hebrew. I am trying to do a study of Isaiah 45:11. The King James represents it the way that many over the centuries have interpretted to imply "authoritative prayer" or (humbly) commanding God:
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
On the other hand, the NIV and other versions seem to present it as God becoming indignant with people; sort of a "how dare you question ME" type of statement:
"This is what the LORD says-
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
One defender of the NIV says that the Hebrew could read either or, but due to context they the NIV was translated as a question. Albert Barnes in his commentary believes that the context implies, not a question, but a command of God to enquire of Him and to (humbly of course) command Him.
I would like to know more of the Hebrew structure. Anyone ever studied this? Any thoughts on this passage from an OV perspective?
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 2/19/2004 12:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Isa 45:7-12I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Chapter 45
Cyrus was nominated, in the foregoing chapter, to be God’s shepherd; more is said to him and more of him in this chapter, not only because he was to be instrumental in the release of the Jews out of their captivity, but because he was to be therein a type of the great Redeemer, and that release was to be typical of the great redemption from sin and death; for that was the salvation of which all the prophets witnessed. We have here, I. The great things which God would do for Cyrus, that he might be put into a capacity to release God’s people (v. 1-4). II. The proof God would hereby give of his eternal power and godhead, and his universal, incontestable, sovereignty (v. 5-7). III. A prayer for the hastening of this deliverance (v. 8). IV. A check to the unbelieving Jews, who quarrelled with God for the lengthening out of their captivity (v. 9, 10). V. Encouragement given to the believing Jews, who trusted in God and continued instant in prayer, assuring them that God would in due time accomplish this work by the hand of Cyrus (v. 11–15). VI. A challenge given to the worshippers of idols and their doom read, and satisfaction given to the worshippers of the true God and their comfort secured, with an eye to the Mediator, who is made of God to us both righteousness and sanctification (v. 16–25). And here, as in many other parts of this prophecy, there is much of Christ and of gospel grace.
The people of God in captivity, who reconciled themselves to the will of God in their affliction and were content to wait his time for their deliverance, are here assured that they should not wait in vain.
I. They are invited to enquire concerning the issue of their troubles, v. 11. The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, though he does not allow them to strive with him, yet encourages them, 1. To consult his word: "Ask of me things to come; have recourse to the prophets and their prophecies, and see what they say concerning these things. Ask the watchmen, What of the night? Ask them, How long?’’ Things to come, as far as they are revealed, belong to us and to our children, and we must not be strangers to them. 2. To seek unto him by prayer: "Concerning my sons and concerning the work of my hands, which as becomes them submit to the will of their Father, the will of their potter, command you me, not by way of prescription, but by way of petition. Be earnest in your requests, and confident in your expectations, as far as both are guided by and grounded upon the promise.’’ We may not strive with our Maker by passionate complaints, but we may wrestle with him by faithful and fervent prayer. My sons, and the work of my hands, commend to me (so some read it), bring them to me and leave them with me. See the power of prayer, and its prevalency with God: Thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am; what would you that I should do unto you? Some read it with an interrogation, as carrying on the reproof (v. 9, 10): Do you question me concerning things to come? and am I bound to give you an account? And concerning my children, even concerning the work of my hands, will you command me, or prescribe to me? Dare you do so? Shall any teach God knowledge, or give law to him? Those that complain of God do in effect assume an authority over him. - Matthew Henry
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/19/2004 5:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't think there's any question, whatsoever, that the King James leads one to think that the verse (often used by Word of Faith people) is simply an accusation and not God saying, "Go ahead, tell me what to do. I'm your slave."
Most any of the reputable translations bring out the real meaning of the verse.
For clarity,
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victoryword
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 2/19/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman
I have been in the Word of Faith Movement for years and I do not recall one Word of Faith teacher using it. On the other hand I have read scores of classic authors use it: F. B. Meyer, Charles Spurgeon, Watchman Nee, A. T. Pierson, The Unknown Christian, F. E. Marsh, John Gill, A. B. Simpson, E. M. Bounds, Albert Barnes and others I could name. Tim just provided a quote by Matthew Henry so I am not sure why you would even mention "Word of Faith people" in relation to this.
Furthermore, I am not sure what you consider a "reputable" translation. Many scholars would differ with you on what is "reputable." The NIV gives the "how dare you" translation (which I am sure you feel is the correct one) but I have found many versions, both old and modern day, that agree with the KJV rendering. I am far from being a KJV Only person, but I know many of them would feel a slighted by a comment that this version is less "reputable" than other versions.
Now, if a person can provide me with FACTS about the correct translation, I would really appreciate it. I'm really not here to debate Word of Faith theology (I get enough of that on other forums) or which Bible version is the best version. I made a specific request on a forum that is usually attended by schiolarly OVers and have some hope that I will not be disappointed.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/19/2004 6:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Victoryword,
First, I didn't mean to offend you with the reference to the Word of Faith; however, I've personally heard Creflo Dollar's wife, as well as several others in the Word of Faith (Copeland, et al) use the verse. I should say, however, that I think they have backed away from using this verse as much as was used in past times, because, as they too know, more (modern) clear translations than the KJV bring out the verse's context in a way that, for the most part, clears up the confusion of interpreting the passage. Your references to classic writers is just that; classic writers who most oftentimes used the KJV. Good scholars, but I think they were wrong on their interpretation of this verse.
As far as reputable versions, really, this isn't that hard. The NASB, NIV, NET (www.bible.org), the NKJV--these versions bring out the context more clearly, not just a different tranlsation of Isaiah 45:ll. And it is in this regard that I hold to what I believe to be a better interpretation of the passage. I mean, do we find anywhere, other than this passage, God telling a very disobedient people to command Him? That doesn't even make sense in and of itself much less in this passage. At least, that's how I see it.
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/19/2004 6:29 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 2/19/2004 7:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Starkman
Hello Victoryword,
First, I didn't mean to offend you with the reference to the Word of Faith; however, I've personally heard Creflo Dollar's wife, as well as several others in the Word of Faith (Copeland, et al) use the verse. I should say, however, that I think they have backed away from using this verse as much as was used in past times, because, as they too know, more (modern) clear translations than the KJV bring out the verse's context in a way that, for the most part, clears up the confusion of interpreting the passage. Your references to classic writers is just that; classic writers who most oftentimes used the KJV. Good scholars, but I think they were wrong on their interpretation of this verse.
As far as reputable versions, really, this isn't that hard. The NASB, NIV, NET (www.bible.org), the NKJV--these versions bring out the context more clearly, not just a different tranlsation of Isaiah 45:ll. And it is in this regard that I hold to what I believe to be a better interpretation of the passage. I mean, do we find anywhere, other than this passage, God telling a very disobedient people to command Him? That doesn't even make sense in and of itself much less in this passage. At least, that's how I see it.
Starkman
My apologies as well Starkman if I have misunderstood you. I am often dealing with Word-Faith detractors on other forums and sometimes when someone mentions this movement it seems like an attack. I just like to occasionally talk about something else when I go to a different forum. It's probably my own fault though for having a link to my webpage under my signature line.
Anyway, I do not listen to Dollar and Copeland that much so I am not aware of everything they say and teach. While I have respect for the both of them, I was probably more influenced by Kenneth Hagin and Fred Price than by the rest.
The first time I can recall ever seeing Isa. 45:11 used in reference to prayer was in a book by Watchman Nee on prayer that I read in the late 80s. At the time I was desiring to strengthen my holiness walk and became interested in Christ-Life" and HOliness teachings. Thus my devouring of all of the classic authors you see mentioned in my last post. I found most of them referring to Isa. 45:11 in this light.
Ten (or more) years ago while preparing a series on prayer that I was going to preach, I considered using Isa. 45:11 and just decided to check it out in a different translation other than the KJV. I believe that it was the RSV. When I saw how differently it was rendered from the KJV I decided that perhaps this would not be a good "prooftext" for my message on prayer. So I chucked it and nevr thought about the verse, and even dismissed it when reading books by others who used the verse.
My interest in this verse came again only recently as I was reading some E. M. Bounds stuff and considering how OVers understand God and prayer from their perspective.
Now, an advocate for the NIV does say that the verse can be interpretted either way, but feels that the NIV renders it properly within the context. Therefore, this defender of the NIV is not saying that the KJV renders it correctly but views it differently contextually.
Albert Barnes refutes some of these very arguments that you present in your post. I can quote him later on this. You might find it interesting.
Finally, while I am no Hebrew or Greek scholar by a long shot, I still know some scholars who would differ with you on your beliefs about particular Bible translations being more "reputable" than others.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/19/2004 7:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Victory,
Oh, heavens, I'm sure there's enough disagreement with my interpretation out there to keep us all busy for a while. I do stress, however, that the context alone seems pretty much the bullet to the head of the "Go ahead, tell me what to do" interpretation. I can't, for the life of me, see how it could mean anything else. Oh well!
I loved Watchman Nee's stuff. Read a ton of it (and I was probably to young in my spiritual walk to understand most of what he said) back in the late seventies, earlies eighties. Good stuff!
As far as translations go, I can't see how any scholar would have a problem (a big one, now, that is) with the NASB. Further, the NIV's been through the ringer, left, right and center, but, in my opinion, does a decent job for what it's purpose. And I think the NKJV is a fine translation--what's the problem with it that anyone would toss it out, other than, perhaps, a true King-James-Only person? Oh, and if you haven't checked out the NET (www.bible.org), there's another good study Bible. It's online and downloadable for free. Done by some pretty reputable scholars, too!
Finally, I've just gotten started, at the ripe old age of 43, with my first year of Greek. It's Bill Mounce's course (textbook, workbook and CDs). I'm pretty jazzed about it. Hebrew? Oi vai! I don't know about that one (didn't hurt my feelings at all when Mounce confessed that he just couldn't ever really catch Hebrew!). We'll see. At least Mounce isn't expecting all 52 paradigms to be memorized!
Take care,
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PhilTheThrill
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 2/19/2004 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | | | This is slightly off topic but: Don't you love it when God gets sarcastic with people? I think that Job 38+ is one of my favorite Bible scenes, with God just tearing Job a new one and asking him all these sarcastic questions. | | Back to Top | | |
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victoryword
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 2/19/2004 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | As promised:
From the Pamphlet Accuracy Defined and Illustrated: An NIV Translator Answers Your Questions
Why does the NIV have an interrogative senetence here when the KJV has a declarative one
While the Hebrew could be translated as either a statement or a question, it is probably better in view of verses 1-10 to take it as a question. Understood that way, the Lord is rebuking people for questioning His sovereign ways and his dealings with his children, particularly through Cyrus the Great, the King of Persia. This seems to be the view favored by the context.
Okay, now for Albert Barnes rebuttal of Starkman, John, and this NIV translator 
Isa 45:11 -
Thus saith the Lord - This verse is designed still further to illustrate the general subject referred to in this chapter, and especially to show them, that instead of complaining of his designs, or of finding fault with his sovereignty, it was their privilege to inquire respecting his dealings, and even to ‘command’ him. He was willing to be inquired of, and to instruct them in regard to the events which were occurring.
And his Maker - (See the note at Isa_43:1).
Ask me of things to come - I alone can direct and order future events; and it is your duty and privilege to make inquiry respecting those events. Lowth renders this as a question, ‘Do ye question me concerning my children?’ But the more correct rendering is doubtless that in our translations, where it is represented as a duty to make inquiry respecting future events from God. The idea is:
1. That God alone could direct future events, and give information respecting them.
2. That instead of complaining of his allotments, they should humbly inquire of him in regard to their design, and the proper manner of meeting them; and
3. That if they were made the subject of humble, fervent, believing prayer, he would order them so as to promote their welfare, and would furnish them grace to meet them in a proper manner.
Concerning my sons - Those who are my adopted children. It is implied that God loved them as his children, and that they had the privilege of pleading for his favor and regard, with the assurance that he would be propitious to their cry, and would order events so as to promote their welfare.
And concerning the work of my hands - In regard to what I do. This is also read as a question by Lowth; ‘And do ye give me directions concerning the work of my hands?’ According to this interpretation, God would reprove them for presuming to give him direction about what he should do, in accordance with the sentiment in Isa_45:9-10. This interpretation also is adopted by Vitringa, Jarchi, Aben Ezra, and some others. Grotius renders it, ‘Hinder, if you can, my doing what I will with them. Thus you will show what you can do, and what I can do.’ Rosenmuller supposes it to mean, ‘Commit my sons, and the work of my hands to me: suffer me to do with my own what I will.’ It seems to me, however, that the word ‘command’is here to be taken rather as indicating the privilege of his people to present their desires in the language of fervent and respectful petition; and that God here indicates that he would, so to speak, allow them to direct him; that he would hear their prayers, and would conform the events of his administration to their wishes and their welfare. This is the most obvious interpretation; and this will perhaps suit the connection as well as any other. Instead of complaining, and opposing his administration Isa_45:9-10, it was their privilege to come before him and spread out their needs, and even to give direction in regard to future events, so far as the events of his administration would bear on them, and he would meet their desires. Thus interpreted, it accords with the numerous passages of the Bible which command us to pray; and with the promises of God that he will lend a listening ear to our cries.
So Barnes takes issue with the interpretaion that Isaiah 45:11 must be a "God tearing them a new _________" (you fill in the blank).
Anyway, I am still undecided as to how I see it. I understand what John means by the context. I thought about that many years ago after reading the RSV. But Barnes seems to think that context supports a "declarative" statement. I want to look further into this.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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victoryword
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 2/21/2004 10:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Albert
I am finding good arguments for both sides of this understanding of Isa. 45:11. I suppose that since the majority of people are against the forum declarative statement, I feel like shouting for the underdog
If one were to understand Isaiah 45:11 as "commanding God" (humbly of course) then this could be seen as metaphorical as in speaking directly to a SITUATION to be changed. This is seen in the case of Joshua exercising God-given authority:
Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel. (Joshua 10:12-14)
The TEV translates verse 14 this way: "Never before, and never since, has there been a day like it, when the Lord obeyed a human being. The Lord fought on Israel's side!" If you have trouble with that translation (I can already here the cries of "heresy") then perhaps the GW might present a milder version: "Never before or after this day was there anything like it. The LORD did what a man told him to do, because the LORD fought for Israel." But if you want REAL heresy, Eugene Peterson's, The Message, really gives us some: "There's never been a day like that before or since - God took orders from a human voice! Truly, God fought for Israel."
You can see from the inference in Joshua 10 three things:
1. Joshua is said to spoken to God.
2. Joshua is said to have COMMANDED the sun and moon to stand still
3. The Lord is said to have obeyed Joshua (or taken an order from him, or listened to him).
However, we can see that it was the sun and moon Joshua commanded and that is what obeyed him, but the Lord has it recorded as though he was the one who did what Joshua said. Isn't this the picture we get in Mark 11:22-24 in connection to prayer and speaking to the mountain?
Is it possible that when we have a relationship with God in which we are submissive and obedient to Him that He would invite us to command Him to do some things? It would be one thing if we presumptuously did this, but what if we were invited to do this as submissive and obedient children?
Just some thoughts. I remain unsure about the text, but the study of it intrigues me.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
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