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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/11/2007 2:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
W.p.44-45; W.p.59

Here's two different sorts of duration to compare/contrast. (What's my opinion/position on them: I think they are interesing, significant, and relevant -- important for my life. And I'm grateful for what they draw attention to!) Both involve you and me, and both involve God. But one is of a different sort for me than the other. (And I think that others have suggested that they might involve God differently too -- but it might be more profound to examine how they involve God in the same way...in more of a one-story-model.)

I can find both represented in this quote:
"God is all that he does, and so his act of creating is not something separate from himself. In God's heart and in his love, each one of us has always existed. From all eternity God saw each one of us as an idea or thought in his divine mind, and for each one from all eternity he has a special and distinctive plan. We have always existed for him; creation signifies that at a certain point in time we begin to exist also for ourselves."
I have to stop and pause, and notice that (in green) I existed as thought, in God's mind, "from all eternity." And then in time, at a certain point, I not only began to exist for God and the walls of this house as a physical air-breathing being, but (in blue) I "began to exist for myself," and for you.

 

I think that the author of the above quote would have us compare our duration and God's and find anallogy (which Clete did too, in an earlier post) between them. Part of what we can find as to the meaning of God's creation is, in that author's words

"If nothing compelled God to create, why then did he choose to do so? In so far as such a question admits of an answer, our reply must be: God's motive in creation is his love. Rather than say that he created the universe out of nothing, we should say that he created it out of his own self, which is love. We should think, not of God the Manufacturer or God the Craftsman, but of God the Lover. Creation is an act not so much of his free will as of his free love. To love means to share, as the doctrine of the Trinity has so clearly shown us: God is not just one but one-in-three, because he is a communion of persons who share in love with one another. The circle of divine love, however, has not remained closed. God's love is, in the literal sense of the word, "ecstatic"—a love that causes God to go out from himself and to create things other than himself. By voluntary choice God created the world in "ec­static" love, so that there might be besides himself other beings to participate in the life and the love that are his.

God was under no compulsion to create; but that does not signify that there was anything incidental or inconsequential about his act of creation." (which continues and is finished by the first quote)

I really like how he says that God's love is "ECSTATIC." I think that means outward-moving/effecting.

The anallogy for you and me -- what's the point (at Clete's invitation) -- is that WE are to love God and love each other.

THAT is part of the MEANING of the Time/Duration of our lives.

And I see an anallogy between the ECSTATIC-ness of the image of rays moving out from one point and the RAY-ness of eternal life inspiring us to both life in the moment AND not fret evil but look beyond the moment (to the telios) for the really-real significance of things that happen in our lives by the will and grace of God, even be they temptation or suffering.

...

I'm enjoying looking for something "deeper" about time.

I hope both of you have enjoyed what I wrote; and can think of something good to contribute to this.

It's a beginning.

idea 


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/11/2007 9:25:41 PM (GMT-6)

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Clete
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   Posted 12/11/2007 8:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel said...
Clete said...

Existence implies duration, by definition.
Time is duration, by definition.
Therefore existence implies time.
Ok.


Nice.



Further, there are different kinds of existence,

Therefore there are different kinds of time.

This does not follow.

There are neither different kinds of existence nor of time.

There may be different aspects of existence but that isn't the same thing. There can be no "kinds" of existence. Either something exists or it does not. And in the same manner, there can be no different "kinds" of duration. Something either endures or it does not. More than one way of analogizing duration does not equate to there being more than one kind of it. You can say that time is like a river, or time is like an arrow, or time is like a spiral, or time is like a Siamese cat, or any of a thousand possible different analogies but that doesn't mean there are a thousand different kinds of time, that just means there is a thousand different ways to describe it.

Your argument, actually it doesn't even qualify as an actual argument, your statement is equivalent to the following...

There is more than one color of apple,
Therefore there is more than one kind of fruit.

Ignoring the fact that there happens to be more than one kind of fruit for the moment, the point is that the conclusion does not follow the premise. Even if you concluded that there was more than one kind of apple it would be more than that premise would allow because the exact same kind of apple can come in a variety of colors.

Anyway, lets not get caught up on fruit, the key here is that your thinking is sloppy and your argumentation fallacious.


Resting in Him,
Clete
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Clete
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   Posted 12/11/2007 8:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel said...
W.p.44-45; W.p.59

Here's two different sorts of duration to compare/contrast. (What's my opinion/position on them: I think they are interesing, significant, and relevant -- important for my life. And I'm grateful for what they draw attention to!) Both involve you and me, and both involve God. But one is of a different sort for me than the other. (And I think that others have suggested that they might involve God differently too -- but it might be more profound to examine how they involve God in the same way...in more of a one-story-model.)

I can find both represented in this quote:

""God is all that he does, and so his act of creating is not something separate from himself. In God's heart and in his love, each one of us has always existed. From all eternity God saw each one of us as an idea or thought in his divine mind, and for each one from all eternity he has a special and distinctive plan. We have always existed for him; creation signifies that at a certain point in time we begin to exist also for ourselves."

This quote is both unbiblical and irrational. It is therefore false. God is not what He does. He is the acting agent, not the action.

As this comment is both irrational and unchristian it is there irrelevant as is any argument you make based upon it.


PotOnWheel said...
I existed as thought, in God's mind, "from all eternity."

No, actually, you didn't.

You didn't exist until you existed - period.

Nothing in the Bible suggests otherwise.

Further this concept of "eternity" as presented here is irrational, as I have already demonstrated and so again you comments are both unbiblical and irrational.

PotOnWheel said...
And then in time, at a certain point, I not only began to exist for God and the walls of this house as a physical air-breathing being, but I "began to exist for myself," and for you.

None of this is even getting close to more than one kind of existence. The fact that existence can be viewed or understood from more than one perspective does not mean that there are as many different kinds of existence as there are perspectives from which to study it. I can study and understand Silver Back Gorillas from an evolutionary perspective or from a creationist, as a biologist or a sociologist, from a fifth grade perspective or from that of a graduate student. That doesn't mean that there are six different kinds of Silver Back Gorilla.

PotOnWheel said...
I think that the author of the above quote would have us compare our duration and God's and find anallogy (which Clete did too, in an earlier post) between them. Part of what we can find as to the meaning of God's creation is, in that author's words


"<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11.5pt; COLOR: #434343; LETTER-SPACING: -0.3pt">If nothing compelled God to create, why then did he choose to <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11.5pt; COLOR: #434343; LETTER-SPACING: -0.2pt">do so? In so far as such a question admits of an answer, our reply must be: God's motive in creation is his love. Rather than say that <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11.5pt; COLOR: #434343">he created the universe out of nothing, we should say that he <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.2pt">created it out of his own self, which is love. We should think, not <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.05pt">of God the Manufacturer or God the Craftsman, but of God the <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.25pt">Lover. Creation is an act not so much of his free will as of his free <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.2pt">love. <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.2pt">To love means to share, as the doctrine of the Trinity has so <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.25pt">clearly shown us: God is not just one but one-in-three, because he <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.05pt">is a communion of persons who share in love with one another. The circle of divine love, however, has not remained closed. <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.1pt">God's love is, in the literal sense of the word, "ecstatic"—a love <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.15pt">that causes God to go out from himself and to create things other than himself. By voluntary choice God created the world in "ec­<SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.2pt">static" love, so that there might be besides himself other beings to <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.15pt">participate in the life and the love that are his.

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11.5pt; COLOR: #434343; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">God was under no compulsion to create; but that does not signify that there was anything incidental or inconsequential <SPAN style="LETTER-SPACING: -0.15pt">about his act of creation." (which continues and is finished by the first quote)

Altogether irrelevant.

The only question that needs to be answered is whether or not God existed before creation?

"Yes" concedes my position.

"No" denies the Christian faith.

PotOnWheel said...
I really like how he says that God's love is "ECSTATIC." I think that means outward-moving/effecting.

The anallogy for you and me -- what's the point (at Clete's invitation) -- is that WE are to love God and love each other.

THAT is part of the MEANING of the Time/Duration of our lives.

That's very nice but it has nothing to do with whether or not there is more than one kind of duration or whether or not existence implies duration. You're ofuscating.

PotOnWheel said...
And I see an anallogy between the ECSTATIC-ness of the image of rays moving out from one point and the RAY-ness of eternal life inspiring us to both life in the moment AND not fret evil but look beyond the moment (to the telios) for the really-real significance of things that happen in our lives by the will and grace of God, even be they temptation or suffering.

The really real or the really really real?

Maybe you're actually talking more about the really really really real, in which case the really really real isn't all that important and the real, well that's hardly worth mentioning.

That may sound trite but there's a point to it if your so inclined to find it.

PotOnWheel said...
I'm enjoying looking for something "deeper" about time.

A noble persuit! But you won't find it by throwing sound reason out the window the way you have.

PotOnWheel said...
I hope both of you have enjoyed what I wrote; and can think of something good to contribute to this.

It's a beginning.

idea

I give you credit for being well read and very familiar with a great depth of extra-biblical scholarship but your thinking skills leave something to be desired. In essence, and in my opinion, which I know you didn't really ask for, you're over educated to the point you can no longer think clearly.

Resting in Him,
Clete
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/11/2007 10:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Clete, since I made a good-faith attempt to engage in conversation, but you disrespected and ignored both what I communicated...as well as ignored invitation to share, I can only conclude that you have no intention but to WHINE if someone does not furnish fodder for you to attack, and you only intend to serve yourself rather than edifying other people.

On this board we have a feature that lets persons ignore bad posters.


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/15/2007 9:47:39 AM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/11/2007 10:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As to how someone expressed "Time is Grace" a quote that gets us into that topic is found right at the end of these quotes from Ware's "The Orthodox Way" (pages 44-45):
Existence is always a gift from God—a free gift of his love, a gift that is never taken back, but a gift none the less, not something that we possess by our own power. God alone has the cause and source of his being in himself; all created things have their cause and source, not in themselves, but in him. God alone is self-sourced; all created things are God-sourced, God-rooted, finding their origin and fulfillment in him. God alone is noun; all created things are adjectives.
 
In saying that God is Creator of the world, we do not mean merely that he set things in motion by an initial act "at the beginning", after which they go on functioning by themselves. God is not just a cosmic clockmaker, who winds up the machin­ery and then leaves it to keep ticking on its own. On the contrary, creation is continual. If we are to be accurate when speaking of creation, we should use not the past tense but the continuous present. We should say, not "God made the world, and me in it", but "God is making the world, and me in it, here and now, at this moment and always". Creation is not an event in the past, but a relationship in the present. If God did not continue to exert his creative will at every moment, the universe would immediately lapse into non-being; nothing could exist for a single second if God did not will it to be. As Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow puts it, "All creatures are balanced upon the creative word of God, as if upon a bridge of diamond; above them is the abyss of divine infinitude, below them that of their own nothingness."4
 
 


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/11/2007 9:31:51 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/11/2007 10:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Time and time again...

Here's a quote from earlier in this thread.

To pray without kneeling on Sunday is not only a commemoration of the Resurrection, but a foretaste of the age to come, as befits Sunday, which is itself an icon of that age. In such an act one deliberately lives within the iconic meaning of time, accepting time as the expression, within our current sensible existence, of the immeasurable fulness of eternal life. It is this iconic form of life that the eastern Church Fathers open up for us today.

I'm reminded of how a conservatively-radical friend eschews "days and weeks and seasons" as if making Sunday to be just like every other day would make it more special. He is iconoclast in wanting to make everything special by making nothing special.

I, personally, don't think his experiement is likely to work. I like anniversaries, and birthdays, and sentimental signposts in time. I share a number of numbers with my wife, of various degrees of obscurity. And there are no little parts to our puzzle that do not remind us of the whole!

Sure, Christmas is not the only day to celebrate the Christic event. I like the Christmas cards where the manger reminds us of a crypt -- that gets the job done. And in pictures of the Cross I like to see our God's mother there acting out the prophesy that told her, and us all, that a spear would pierce her heart.

 

Time points to time. Time is a team of moments that work together, and join us in giving back God's gifts with gratetude, and accepting the help of the Spirit who works in our lives.

B.

 

 


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/12/2007 4:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Clete said...
Are you able to articulate your views on the nature of time in a manner more conducive to casual conversation? If so, I'd love it if you'd do so.
I've YET to see whether Clete can converse casually.
 
I'd love to see THAT too.
 
B.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/12/2007 4:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Clete said...
The fact is that it is we who have been made in the image of God, not the other way around. That being the case, we should expect for there to be some resemblance between ourselves and God. Indeed, we are enough similar to God so as to make it possible for Him to become a human being and still remain God and so there is no fundamental incompatibility between humanity and divinity or else the incarnation would not have been possible.
 
I would like to discuss THIS part of one of your page-two posts, Clete.
 
Actually part of this issue forms one of the foundations of an on-going thread on this board, that right now has 706 replies and 4297 views. THat part pertains to details of our image-bearing in comparision to the Son's image bearing.
 
I'd like to discuss this; but I don't intend to rush to quick solutions... And it does seem that you'd prefer quick solutions. So only discuss with me if you understand my intentions and can live with them. Otherwise go HERE to discuss: http://www.opentheismboard.org/default.aspx?f=10&m=93963&p=29
 
B.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/15/2007 10:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
feelinahole said...
Don't hold your breath, Clete. POW isn't one to actually state his opinion.
 
Harold, to update that impression go HERE:   http://www.opentheismboard.org/default.aspx?f=10&m=93963&p=30
 
 


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Clete
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   Posted 12/16/2007 9:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel said...
only intend to serve yourself rather than edifying other people.

On this board we have a feature that lets persons ignore bad posters.



[color=black></FONT>



<FONT color=black>

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I responded to what you said point for point. I wasn't rude, I didn't call you names, I didn't change the subject, I didn't misquote you or remove your comments from their context, I didn't write in big red letters nor use too many exclamation points or anything else that could rightly have engendered such a response from you. If anything you are the one who's gone off the emotional deep end here. I've done nothing but directly quote you and then directly respond to what you said with clearly stated arguments against your position on this issue as stated in your own words.

Now if your definition of "casual conversation" is that whomever your talking to has to fawn over your quotations and agree with everything you say, then I'm not going to be a very satisfying person to have a conversation with, but if you are interested in the Biblical idea of iron sharpening iron then we might both benefit from challenging each other to defend what we believe both Biblically and with sound reason. I'm perfectly willing to entertain new ideas and to explore concepts that I have never considered before, but I am not willing to do so arbitrarily. If you are either unwilling or unable to satisfy me that the ideas you bring to the table are not self-contradictory (i.e. irrational) then I won't waste my time with either you or those issues you cannot or will not defend.

Resting in Him,
Clete
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Clete
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   Posted 12/16/2007 9:26 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel said...
Clete said...

The fact is that it is we who have been made in the image of God, not the other way around. That being the case, we should expect for there to be some resemblance between ourselves and God. Indeed, we are enough similar to God so as to make it possible for Him to become a human being and still remain God and so there is no fundamental incompatibility between humanity and divinity or else the incarnation would not have been possible.



I would like to discuss THIS part of one of your page-two posts, Clete.



Actually part of this issue forms one of the foundations of an on-going thread on this board, that right now has 706 replies and 4297 views. THat part pertains to details of our image-bearing in comparision to the Son's image bearing.



I'd like to discuss this; but I don't intend to rush to quick solutions... And it does seem that you'd prefer quick solutions. So only discuss with me if you understand my intentions and can live with them. Otherwise go HERE to discuss: http://www.opentheismboard.org/default.aspx?f=10&m=93963&p=29



B.

I have no idea what you meant with the "quick solutions" comment but if you want to discuss this then I'd be happy to do so.

What about it would you like to discuss, exactly?
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/16/2007 5:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Quoting you (Clete) "..we should expect for there to be some resemblance between ourselves and God. Indeed, we are enough similar to God so as to make it possible for Him to become a human being and still remain God and so there is no fundamental incompatibility between humanity and divinity or else the incarnation would not have been possible."

You said that after observing "...that one is 'making God into our own image' is thrown around...". You did so following my making the comment that: "...I don't like statements like 'God exists outside of time' as it makes time something separate from God, as if it preceeds God, making God a creature. Such simple statements might make us feel like we are in control, but they influence us to make God into out own image."

To be precise, I didn't throw around whether you were making God in your own image; I remarked that I don't like statements like "God exists outside of time BECAUSE such statements make time something separate from God."
 
Your own statement did not seem to separate time from God, but rather found something related to time that you expressed a paragraph later (top of this post) as being a point where God and man were "enough similar" and support a "fundamental [no 'im']compatibility." 

Now I remarked that the "Hey, Everyone" thread is exploring "details of our image-bearing in comparision to the Son's image bearing," and I advanced that MY STRONG PREFERENCE is to not "rush to quick solutions" as the principle debaters are themselves working slowly in not arriving at any superficial conclusions.
 
There are, I think, analogies between discussing image/image-bearer and being/duration, and in the present context of both discussions going on at the same time, I'm just pointing out to you that at this stage your answering my queations -- some of which you haven't answered. As their are analogies between image/image-bearer and being/duration, we will have to concider Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Glorfication. In that light let me repeat a set of questions here:
1.  How does the fall affect time?
2.  And what meaning does that have, that the fall brought corruption to being: death?
3.  How does the Resurrection change time, either fallen time or creational time?

Discussion of "Hey, Everyone" has Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Glorfication in the background, as well as distinctions and similarities smilewinkgrin between creator and creation. Discussions of God and time require them too.

Now, I really do want a casual discussion. Do you?


(o)

Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/16/2007 5:22:27 PM (GMT-6)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/16/2007 6:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
THIS side of the trumpet call I think this is a useful definition of "time."

PoW: Time is a team of moments that work together, and join us in giving back God's gifts with gratetude, and accepting the help of the Spirit who works in our lives.

B.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/16/2007 6:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quoting again from Ware's "The Orthodox Way" (pages 44-45):
 
Existence is always a gift from God—a free gift of his love, a gift that is never taken back, but a gift none the less, not something that we possess by our own power. God alone has the cause and source of his being in himself; all created things have their cause and source, not in themselves, but in him. God alone is self-sourced; all created things are God-sourced, God-rooted, finding their origin and fulfillment in him. God alone is noun; all created things are adjectives.

In saying that God is Creator of the world, we do not mean merely that he set things in motion by an initial act "at the beginning", after which they go on functioning by themselves. God is not just a cosmic clockmaker, who winds up the machin­ery and then leaves it to keep ticking on its own. On the contrary, creation is continual. If we are to be accurate when speaking of creation, we should use not the past tense but the continuous present. We should say, not "God made the world, and me in it", but "God is making the world, and me in it, here and now, at this moment and always". Creation is not an event in the past, but a relationship in the present. If God did not continue to exert his creative will at every moment, the universe would immediately lapse into non-being; nothing could exist for a single second if God did not will it to be. As Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow puts it, "All creatures are balanced upon the creative word of God, as if upon a bridge of diamond; above them is the abyss of divine infinitude, below them that of their own nothingness."4
 
I'm reading this again in the context and light of my post where I wrote: "Time is a team of moments that work together, and join us in giving back God's gifts with gratetude, and accepting the help of the Spirit who works in our lives." How much different this is from how our culture says that time is something to be "killed" or "wasted?"


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/16/2007 6:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Akathist - Glory to God for All Things

www.angelfire.com/ga/riggs/Akathist-GloryToGod.html
 
KONTAKION 1

Incorruptible King of all ages, holding in Thy hand every path of human life through the power of Thy saving Providence. We thank Thee for all the good things Thou doest, those we know and those we don't know, for earthly life and for the heavenly joy of Thy Kingdom to come. Hold us in Thy mercy now and ever we who sing: Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.

Ikos I

Into the world I was born as a weak, helpless child, but Thy Angel spread wings of light over me, guarding my crib. Ever since then Thy love lights all my paths, wonderfully guiding me towards the light of eternity. Gloriously, the generous gifts of Thy Providence have been manifest from the very first day. I am thankful to Thee and with all who have come to know Thee, call out:
Glory to Thee, Who called me to life,
Glory to Thee, Who hast shown me the beauty of the universe,
Glory to Thee, Who hast opened before me the sky and the earth as an eternal book of wisdom,
Glory to the eternity of Thee, in the midst of the world of time,
Glory to Thee, for Thy hidden and evident goodness,
Glory to Thee, for every sigh of my sadness,
Glory to Thee, for every step of my life, for every moment of joy,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 2

Lord, how good it is to be Thy guest; the delicately scented wind, the mountains stretching to the sky, the waters reflecting like infinite mirrors, the golden rays of sun, the airiness of clouds. All nature secretly whispers, full of tenderness, and even the birds and beasts bear the mark of Thy Love. Blessed is mother earth with her transient beauty, longing for the homeland which is eternal and where an imperishable beauty rings out: Alleluia.

Ikos II

Thou hast brought me into this life as into an enchanting paradise. The sky is a deep blue vessel of azure out of which rings the sound of birds; there is the rustling sound of the forest and the sweet sounding music of the waters; the fragrant and sweet fruit and honey which we eat. It is good to be with Thee on earth, joyous to be Thy guest:
Glory to Thee, for the festival of life,
Glory to Thee, for the fragrant lilies of the valley and the roses,
Glory to Thee, for the delectable variety of berries and fruits,
Glory to Thee, for the morning dew, shining like diamonds,
Glory to Thee, for the smile of awakening enlightenment,
Glory to Thee, for all that is heavenly, foreshadowing eternal life,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 3

Every flower is fragrant through the power of the Holy Spirit, in a delicate flow of aroma and tenderness of color; the beauty of the Great contained in what is small. Praise and honor to God Who gives life, Who spreads forth the meadows like a flowering carpet, Who crowns the fields with golden ears of wheat and azure basilisks, and the soul with the joy of contemplation. Let us rejoice and sing to Him: Alleluia.

Ikos III

How beautiful Thou art in the triumphant festival of spring, when all creatures come to life again and in a thousand ways joyfully call out to Thee: Thou art the source of life; Thou art the victor over death. To the song of the nightingale, the valleys and forests stand in snow white bridal array by the light of the season. All the earth is Thy bride, waiting for the immortal bridegroom. If Thou clothe even the grass in such a splendid way, how will Thou transfigure us in the future age of resurrection, how will our bodies be made light and our souls be made luminous:
Glory to Thee, Who brought out of the earth's darkness diversity of color, taste, and fragrance,
Glory to Thee, for the warmth and caress of all nature,
Glory to Thee, for surrounding us with thousands of Thy creatures,
Glory to Thee, for the depth of Thy wisdom reflected in the whole world,
Glory to Thee, I kiss reverently the footprint of Thy invisible tread,
Glory to Thee, Who kindled before us the bright light of eternal life,
Glory to Thee, for the hope of immortal, ideal, incorruptible beauty,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 4

How you bring sweetness to those who think of Thee, how life-giving is Thy Word, it is softer than oil, it is sweeter than honey to talk with Thee. Praying to Thee brings Life into us and gives us wings. What trembling then fills the heart. What dignity and greatness and wisdom there are in nature and all of life. Where Thou art not there is emptiness. Where Thou art there is richness of soul, a torrent of life: Alleluia!

Ikos IV

When sunset descends over the earth and the peace of eternal sleep and the stillness of the fading day come to reign, I see Thy abode in the guise of glistening palaces and clouds hovering in the evening light. Fiery red, gold and azure speak prophetically of the unutterable beauty of Thy world and cry out triumphantly: "Let us go to the Father!"
Glory to Thee, in the stillness of the evening,
Glory to Thee, Who hast bestowed great peace to the world,
Glory to Thee, for the last rays of sunlight,
Glory to Thee, for rest and the gift of sleep,
Glory to Thee, for Thy presence in darkness, when the world is so remote,
Glory to Thee, for prayer from the depth of a heart touched by Thee,
Glory to Thee, for the promise of awakening to the joy of the eternal, unending day,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 5

The storms of life are not frightening to one in whose heart shines the light of Thy Fire. All around the weather is bad; there is darkness, horror, and the howling wind. But in the soul of such a one there is peace and light. Christ is there! And the heart sings: Alleluia!

Ikos V

I see Thy heavens glittering with stars. O how rich Thou art, how much light Thou hast! Eternity looks at me through the rays of distant worlds; I am so small and inconsequential, but the Lord is with me, His loving hand is everywhere protecting me:
Glory to Thee, for Thy constant care of me,
Glory to Thee, for providential encounters with people,
Glory to Thee, for the love of relatives, the devotion of friends,
Glory to Thee, for the gentleness of animals who serve me,
Glory to Thee, for the luminous moments of my life,
Glory to Thee, for the bright joys of my heart,
Glory to Thee, for the happiness of living, of moving and contemplating,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 6

How great and near Thou art in the power of thunderstorms, how visible is Thy mighty hand in the blinding curves of lightning, amazing in Thy greatness. The voice of the Lord is over the fields and in the sound of the forests; the voice of the Lord is in the birth of the thunder and rain; the voice of the Lord is over many waters. Praise be to Thee in the thundering of volcanoes spitting fire. Thou dost shake the earth about like a garment. Thou dost lift up the waves of the sea into the sky. Praise be to Thee Who humble human pride, drawing out the repentant cry: Alleluia!

Ikos VI

When the palaces of earth are suddenly lit up by lightning bursting forth, how paltry seem our ordinary lights afterward. In just such a way Thou suddenly lightest up my soul during the times of deepest joy in my life. And after the brilliance of Thy light, like lightning, how colorless, dark and unreal these moments seem. And my soul rushes in pursuit of Thee:
Glory to Thee, beyond the limit of the highest human dream!
Glory to Thee, for our tireless thirst for Thee,
Glory to Thee, Who hast inspired in us dissatisfaction with earthly things,
Glory to Thee, Who hast enveloped us in the delicate rays of Thy light,
Glory to Thee, Who hast broken the power of the spirits of darkness, and Who hast doomed to annihilation every kind of evil,
Glory to Thee, for Thy revelations, and for the happiness of feeling Thy presence and living with Thee,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 7

One hears Thy call in a wonderful composition of sounds. Thou dost open for us the environment of our future paradise in melodious singing and harmonious tones, in the height of musical color, in the brilliance of artistic creativity. All that is truly beautiful carries the soul to Thee in a mighty call, and forces it to sing rapturously: Alleluia!

Ikos VII

Through the descent of the Holy Spirit Thou dost enlighten the thought of artists, poets and scientific geniuses. Through the power of the inmost mind, they are prophetically able to perceive Thy laws, opening for us the abyss of Thy creative wisdom. Their works involuntarily speak of Thee; of how great Thou art in Thy creations, of how great Thou art in man:
Glory to Thee, Who hast manifested the unfathomable force of the laws of the universe,
Glory to Thee, all of nature is full of the laws of Thy being,
Glory to Thee, for all that has been revealed to us through Thy goodness,
Glory to Thee, for all Thou hast kept hidden in Thy wisdom,
Glory to Thee, for the genius of the human mind,
Glory to Thee, for the life-giving strength of work,
Glory to Thee, for the fiery tongues of inspiration,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 8

How near Thou art in the days of illness; Thou Thyself visit the sick. Thou Thyself bend down to the bed of the sufferer and the heart speaks to Thee. In times of hardship and suffering, Thou dost illumine the soul with peace; Thou dost send unexpected help. Thou art consoling, searching and saving love, and to Thee we sing the song: Alleluia!

Ikos VIII

When as a child I consciously called to Thee for the first time, Thou didst answer my prayer and my soul knew a wonderful peace. Then I understood that Thou art goodness; blessed are those who seek Thee. I began to call to Thee again and again, and call to Thee even now:
Glory to Thee, Who grantest my wishes when they are good,
Glory to Thee, Who watcheth over me day and night,
Glory to Thee, curing hardships and losses with the healing course of time,
Glory to Thee, for Whom there is no such thing as a hopeless loss; Thou givest eternal life to all,
Glory to Thee, Who hast made immortal all that is good and lofty, Who hast promised our desired reunion with those who have died,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 9

Why does all nature smile mysteriously on feast days? Why is the heart filled at these times with a wonderful lightness that is incomparable to anything on earth; how is it that the very air at the altar and in the Church become light bearing? This is the breath of Thy grace, the glow of the light of Tabor; the sky and the earth are singing at these times in praise: Alleluia!

Ikos IX

When Thou hast inspired me to serve those around me and illumined my heart with humility, one of Thy innumerable rays falls on my heart making it light bearing, as iron in fire; and I saw Thy mysterious, imperceptible Face:
Glory to Thee, Who hast transfigured our life with the good things that we do,
Glory to Thee, Who hast imprinted an unutterable sweetness on every precept of Thine,
Glory to Thee, Who clearly abidest where there is kindness and generosity of heart,
Glory to Thee, Who sendest failures and sorrows to us so that we might be sensitive to the sufferings of others,
Glory to Thee, Who hast placed a great reward on the value of goodness in itself,
Glory to Thee, Who acceptest our moments of soaring,
Glory to Thee, Who hast raised love higher than anything on earth or in heaven,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 10

That which is broken cannot be restored, but Thou canst set aright those whose conscience has become decayed; Thou restorest the soul to its former beauty in those who have lost it beyond all hope. With Thee there is nothing that cannot be put aright. Thou art all love. Thou art the Creator and the Restorer. To Thee we sing praise: Alleluia!

Ikos X

My God, Thou Who knowest the fall of the proud angel, save me through the power of Thy grace, do not let me fall away from Thee, do not allow me to doubt Thee. Sharpen my hearing so that every minute of my life I can hear Thy mysterious voice, and call to Thee Who are everywhere present:
Glory to Thee, for providential coincidences,
Glory to Thee, for the gift of premonitions,
Glory to Thee, for the guidance of a secret inner voice,
Glory to Thee, for revelations in dreams and when awake,
Glory to Thee, Who dost destroy our useless plans,
Glory to Thee, Who dost sober us from the heat of passions with suffering,
Glory to Thee, Who humblest pride of heart to save us,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 11

Through the icy link of the ages, I feel the warmth of Thy Divine breath; I hear the flow of blood. Thou art already near; time has partly vanished. I see Thy Cross; it is for my sake. My spirit is in ashes before the Cross, where there is a triumph of love and salvation, and unceasing praise unto all ages: Alleluia!

Ikos XI

Blessed is he who will have supper in Thy Kingdom, but Thou hast already admitted me to this bliss. How many times hast Thou extended to me with Thy Divine Hand, Thy body and blood; and I, such a sinner, have taken this sacred gift and felt Thy love - unutterable and beyond all being:
Glory to Thee, for the unfathomable, life-giving power of grace,
Glory to Thee, Who hast raised up Thy Church as a refuge of peace for an exhausted world,
Glory to Thee, Who breathe new life into us with the life-giving water of Baptism,
Glory to Thee, Who restore the purity of immaculate lilies to those who repent,
Glory to Thee, inexhaustible abyss of forgiveness,
Glory to Thee, for the cup of life, for the bread of eternal joy,
Glory to Thee, Who led us to heaven,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 12

Many times I have seen the reflection of Thy glory on the faces of the dead. What unearthly beauty and joy shone from them; how ethereal and immaterial were their features. This is the triumph of happiness and peace received gracefully, as they silently call upon Thee. At the hour of my death also illumine my soul as I call: Alleluia!

Ikos XII

How can I give praise to Thee? I have not heard the songs of the cherubim. That is the gift of the highest of souls. But I know how nature gives praise to Thee: in winter I have beheld the moonlight stillness when the whole earth quietly prays to Thee, clothed in white and sparkling with diamonds of snow; I have seen how the rising sun rejoices in Thee and the choirs of birds resound in praise; I have heard the forest speak mysteriously of Thee, the waters murmur and the choirs of stars preach of Thee with their harmonious movement in infinite space. But what is my praise? Nature responds to Thy laws, but I do not! Yet while I am alive I see Thy love; I want to thank Thee, to pray to Thee, and call out:
Glory to Thee, Who hast shown us light,
Glory to Thee, Who hast loved us with love immeasurable, deep, Divine,
Glory to Thee, Who hast surrounded us with light, and with hosts of angels and saints,
Glory to Thee, all Holy Father, Who hast willed us Thy Kingdom,
Glory to Thee, all Holy Son, the Way, the Truth, and the Life,
Glory to Thee, all Holy Spirit and life-giving sun of the future age,
Glory to Thee for everything, O Divine Trinity, all bountiful,
Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 13

O all bountiful and life-giving Trinity, accept this gratitude for all of Thy mercies and make us worthy of your Divine gifts so that having multiplied the talents given us, we may enter into the eternal joy of our Lord with victorious praise: Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.

Ikos I

Into the world I was born as a weak, helpless child, but Thy Angel spread wings of light over me, guarding my crib. Ever since then Thy love lights all my paths, wonderfully guiding me towards the light of eternity. Gloriously, the generous gifts of Thy Providence have been manifest from the very first day. I am thankful to Thee and with all who have come to know Thee, call out:
Glory to Thee, Who called me to life, Glory to Thee, Who hast shown me the beauty of the universe,
Glory to Thee, Who hast opened before me the sky and the earth as an eternal book of wisdom,
Glory to the eternity of Thee, in the midst of the world of time,
Glory to Thee, for Thy hidden and evident goodness,
Glory to Thee, for every sigh of my sadness,
Glory to Thee, for every step of my life, for every moment of joy, Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
KONTAKION 1

Incorruptible King of all ages, holding in Thy hand every path of human life through the power of Thy saving Providence. We thank Thee for all the good things Thou doest, those we know and those we don't know, for earthly life and for the heavenly joy of Thy Kingdom to come. Hold us in Thy mercy now and ever we who sing: Glory to Thee, O God, unto the ages of ages.
 
Copyright © 1999 - 2003 Elizabeth W. Riggs
 
 


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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/16/2007 7:12:53 PM (GMT-6)

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http://www.dobbscapital.com/poetry/Translations/glory_to_god_for_all_things.htm

Glory to God for All Things
The prisoner's Akathist
Written in the Gulag, 1940, by Fr. Gregory Petrov
 

Ode 1

King of all time, who has always willed our salvation,
Your strong right arm guides the course of our lives.
We thank you for your mercies, seen or unseen:
For life eternal and the joys of the kingdom,
Grant mercy to those who sing your praise aloud
Now in this world and in the life to come.
Glory to God,  sing everlasting Glory.

Ikos 1

Your angel spread his wings when I was in my cradle,
From birth until now your light has illumined me
And led me ever onward to the radiance of eternity.
All along the way, your gifts rained down upon me.
How can I thank you, when your gifts have been so many?

Glory for calling my soul into being.
Glory for the beauty of all that has been made.
Glory for the book of wisdom whose pages are earth and heaven.
Glory for your steadfastness as the world flees away.
Glory for your mercies, seen or unseen:
Glory for every sigh, tear or sorrow.
Glory for every step of the journey and every spark of glory,
Glory to God, sing everlasting glory.

Ode 2

The blessings of being your guest are unbearable:
Breezes, scents, mountains and waters -
The sun and the clouds that float on still waters.
All nature breathes with your tenderness,
Sings in your stillness,
Whispers your majesty.
The birds and the beasts move with your love,
And the earth, our ever-dying mother,
Makes us yearn for that beauty beyond, beauty everlasting,
Which will make us cry:

Alleluia!

Ikos 2

Thank you for life in this enchanted planet.
Where the sky is a chalice of lapis,
Where birds sing in the depths of the air,
Where the soothing forests
And the murmuring streams
Bring forth fruit and honey.
Where we live at our ease,
Honored to be your guest in this paradise.

Glory for the feast of life,
Glory for the odor of roses and lilies,
Glory for blackberry and blueberry,
Glory for the moist dew on morning's cheek.
Glory for the heart's sharp joy when dawn awakens,
Glory for new life that beckons with each day,
Glory to You, sing everlasting Glory.

Ode 3

Without the Holy Spirit, no one could smell a flower
And feel its joy or taste its soft color.
The glory of the Most High lurks in the tiniest,
The most evanescent shows forth the Everlasting.
Glory to the Spirit, the Giver of Life,
Who carpets the fields with flowers,
Crowns the harvest meadow with gold,
And fills our eyes with gladness.
Be joyful now and sing to Him:

Alleluia!

Ikos 3

After long winter, how mighty is your glory
When creatures awaken and sing your praise with joy,
O source of life and destroyer of death!
Nightingales chant by the light of the moon,
The valleys put on a wedding-dress of snow
Awaiting the husband who is perfect in his love.
If creatures and grass and earth know such beauty
What shall we be when you come again!
Our bodies shall shine lustrous, our souls shall have no stain.

Glory for nature that is warm and tender,
Glory for creatures around us without number,
Glory for your wisdom that is traced upon the world.
Glory for imprint of your unseen hand to kiss.
Glory for the clarity of life eternal.
Glory for the beauty unspeakable and unchanged.
Glory to God, sing everlasting Glory.


Ode 4

How sweet are thoughts that revolve around you,
That meditate on your holy Word.
To talk with you is balm, balm smoother than oil
And sweeter than dripping honey in the mouth.
Praying to you refreshes the soul.
Where you are not is shadow and emptiness,
Sadness strikes the heart and nature feels no joy
Until you return and bring all things with you
And life like a torrent courses through the soul.

Alleluia!

Ikos 4

When the sun sets in quietness, in the peace of sleep eternal,
And the spent day reigns in silence,
The yellow rays in the clouds show me your dwelling:
Fire and purple, lapis and gold,
The voice of the prophets is written on the sky.
It is your majesty; it is your presence, Father:

Glory for the hushed hour when night creeps down to us.
Glory for covering the earth with peace.
Glory for the last setting ray of the sun
Glory for sleep that restores like wine.
Glory for your light, even in the darkness, when all the earth is hid,
Glory for goodness in times of evil.
Glorious reawakening on that promised day which has no evening
Glory to God, sing everlasting Glory.

Ode 5

Clouds with dark thunder no longer bring me terror
Your fire in my heart burns brighter than the sky.
Outside is the terror, the whirlwind, the howling,
But in the heart, in Christ's presence,
Silence reigns, there is light and peace.
The still heart sings:

Alleluia!

Ikos 5

Your stars light the heavens,
How radiant you are, how glorious!
Eternity is watching me
With distant starlight gleaming.
I am but a cup of dust
With heaven's glory shining
But the Lord stands by my side.
Your strong right arm leads me surely on my path.

Glory for your kindness and its ceaseless watching
Glory for the encounters you have arranged
Glory for the love of friends and of parents.
Glory for animals, mankind's humble servants,
Glory for the moments a heart seals in memory,
Glory for the joy that is innocent and pure.
Glory for living, moving and loving you,
Glory to God, sing everlasting Glory.

Ode 6

How gloriously you light up the thunder-track!
How strong your right arm when it flashes forth fire!
How awesome your majesty! Majestic your voice is
When it encompasses the fields and rustles in the trees.
Your voice is the thunder and downpour of waters,
It is heard above the waters and the blazing hillside.
You shake the earth like a rag.
Wave upon wave you lift to the sky.
I praise you for bringing low the pride of man.
Penitent, my heart cries out:

Alleluia!

Ikos 6

When the lightning bursts forth in the prison mess hall,
How feeble and dim the light from the lamp is.
You strike without warning and fill my heart with joy,
Flash unexpected, light so searing, joy unexpected,
Making all else seem drab, colorless, illusory.

Glory for the highest height that heart can dream of,
Glory for the thirst of oneness with God,
Glory for turning our hearts from earthly love,
Glory for the healing rays of forgiveness,
Glory for subduing darkness, death and evil
Glory for your presence, for hearing your voice, for living in your love,
Glory to God, sing everlasting Glory.

Ode 7

How wondrous is music when sounds blend together,
In music we hear your harmony and love.
All the great music-makers speak with a voice of yours,
Preparing us for paradise and choirs of angels.
All that is beauty draws our souls unto you,
The heart, ecstatic, has but one cry:

Alleluia.

Ikos 7

Your Spirit inspires the poet and the scientist,
Your power makes them prophets
And interpreters of your laws.
Your wisdom is creative, and they, without knowing You,
Show forth your greatness, the greatness of your work,
How great you are in man!

Glory for the power of the laws of the universe
Glory for nature that is ruled by your law.
Glory for your mercy that reveals your laws unto us,
Glory for your wisdom that keeps deep wonders hid,
Glory for the mind of man, endlessly inventive,
Glory for the dignity that labor has given us.
Glory for the tongues of fire that inspire us.
Glory to God, sing everlasting Glory.

Ode 8

When we are sick, how near you approach to us,
You stand by our bedside and comfort our suffering.
You lean on his bed and the sick man's heart confides in you.
You bring him your peace and leave him consolations.
For you are the Love and you the Comforter
That watches us by night and heals us in the day.
Night and day we sing:

Alleluia.

Ikos 8

From my earliest childhood, from the first time I called on you.
You heard me cry out and you filled my heart with peace.
Instantly I knew your goodness, knew your blessings
For everyone who turns to you and calls out night and day.
Morning, night and day and even now I call on you
Filling every hour up with praises to your name.

Glory for fulfilling every good desire,
Glory for watching over me night and day.
Glory for time's flow that heals loss and affliction.
Glory for eternal life that repairs the irreparable.
Glory for immortality for everything good and noble.
Glory for the hope of meeting loved ones who have died.
Glory to God, sing everlasting glory.

Ode 9

Why does a feast day make mysterious nature smile?
Why does it fill our hearts with an unearthly gladness?
Why are even incense, altar and air luminous?
It is the breath of your gracious love upon us,
It is the reflection of your glory on Mount Tabor.
Earth and the sky clap their hands and shout

Alleluia?

Ikos 9

When you called me to serve and filled me with humility.
Your deep and piercing ray of light shone deep into my heart.
It glowed within me luminous like iron ore in the furnace.
Yes, I have seen your face
Full of mystery
And glory unapproachable.

Glory for transforming our lives with deeds of love.
Glory for the pleasure of keeping your commandments.
Glory for appearing whenever man shows mercy.
Glory for failures which teach us men compassion.
Glory for the good we do, which your reward so well,
Glory for welcoming the heart's impulse of love,
Glory for exalting skyward every act of human love
Glory to God, sing everlasting Glory.

Ode 10

Smash an urn once and it lies forever shattered,
But You can reshape a conscience turned to dust.
You can restore the beauty of a soul lost and despairing.
The darkest terror is not beyond your mercy.
There is nothing so old that You cannot renew it.
For you are Love.  You create us and redeem us.
As a candle in the nightfall we praise you:

Alleluia!

Ikos 10

The angel Lucifer, full of pride and glory,
Fell downward. Lord, keep my by your grace.
Save me from the doubt and save me from my falling.
Turn this my heart to your inclination,
Turn me to your calling, may I call upon your name
That is present everywhere.

Glory for all that has happened, every turn of Providence,
Glory for the words you speak into my heart.
Glory for the truth you have revealed to me in sleep or in waking.
Glory for the scattering of vain imaginations.
Glory for raising us out of passion through our suffering,
Glory for the death of our pride by humiliation.
Glory to God, sing everlasting glory.

Ode 11

Across the cold chains of history, your breath keeps me warm.
It is your redeeming blood that pulses in my veins.
Centuries of time have decayed, but you stand beside me now.
I gaze on your cross, which I shaped with my own hands.
I fling myself down before the very dust of your death.
Here is love's triumph, here salvation has prevailed.
The centuries utter this cry and sing your praise:

Alleluia.

Ikos 11

Blessed will they be who banquet in the king's own hall.
But even on earth I have dared to swallow heaven.
Time after time you have held out your  own body
And blood and called aloud for me to partake.
I cannot stop weeping for my sins, I have tasted Love,
And my flesh is burning with heaven's fire.

Glory for the flame that burns but does not consume
Glory for your Church's peace in a tortured world.
Glory for the waters of baptism and rebirth.
Glory for penitence, pure white as the lily- flower.
Glory for the cup of Salvation, Glory for the bread of joy!
Glory for exalting us to the crown of heaven.
Glory to God, sing everlasting glory.


Ode 12

I live surrounded by mountains of the dead
And often your glory lingers on their cheeks.
What frightful beauty, what heavenly joy!
What ethereal light has come to rest on their translucent faces!
Joy and peace have smashed down suffering,
Have conquered death.
With silent mouths they call only you.
In the hour of my death, enlighten my soul also,
That it may cry

Alleluia!

How can I praise you, Lord, here on earth?
The Cherubim in heaven praise you night and day
With sacred hymns unceasingly sung, but I never hear them.
The only praise I hear is the song that nature sings to you.
The silent moon in winter when earth offers up its prayer
Breathing through its crystal diamond mantle.
The rising sun rejoices and the birds sing forth your praise.
The dark forests whisper you and the winds stir the waters.
The choir of stars in serried ranks proclaim your glory nightly
As they hurtle through the hushed infinitudes.
What is my poor worship then?  The stars and seas obey you,
But not my will.
Yet I see your love while I live
And long to give you thanks and prayers and endless praise.

Glory for giving us light,
Glory for giving us, deep, divine and infinite love.
Glory for blessing us with the light and hosts of angels and of saints,
Glory All-Holy Father, for the promise of your kingdom,
Glory Holy Spirit, radiant life of the world to come.
Glory for all things, most holy Trinity, beacon of mercy.
Glory to God, sing everlasting glory.

Ode 13

Giver of Life and Fountain of Mercy,
Receive my thanksgiving, O Trinity, for your goodness.
Make us worthy of your blessings.
Bring our talents to fruition.
Perfect every gift you have entrusted to our keeping.

 

 

Repeat:

Ode 1

King of all time, who has always willed our salvation,
Your strong right arm guides the course of our lives.
We thank you for your mercies, whatever they might be:
For life eternal and the joys of the kingdom,
Grant mercy to those who sing your praise aloud
Now in this world and in the life to come.
Glory to God, sing everlasting Glory.

Ikos 1

Your angel spread his wings when I was in my cradle,
From birth until now your light has illumined me
Leading me ever onward to the radiance of eternity.
All along the way, your gifts rained down upon me.
How can I thank you, when your gifts have been so many?

Glory for calling my soul into being.
Glory for the beauty of all that has been created.
Glory for the book of eternity whose pages are earth and heaven.
Glory for your steadfastness as the world flees away.
Glory for your mercies, whatever they might be,
Glory for every sigh, tear or sorrow.
Glory for every small step and every spark of glory,
Glory to God, sing everlasting glory.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

 

Adaptation by Frank Dobbs, Christmas 1998


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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/16/2007 7:13:27 PM (GMT-6)

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   Posted 12/16/2007 8:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I like THIS: "King of all time, who has always willed our salvation, ..."

from Ode 1,
The prisoner's Akathist
Written in the Gulag, 1940, by Fr. Gregory Petrov


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/16/2007 8:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
T. S. Eliot Poems
The Four Quartets

http://www.ubriaco.com/fq.html

 


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/16/2007 8:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Check it out.


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Clete
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   Posted 12/16/2007 10:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel said...
Quoting you (Clete) "..we should expect for there to be some resemblance between ourselves and God. Indeed, we are enough similar to God so as to make it possible for Him to become a human being and still remain God and so there is no fundamental incompatibility between humanity and divinity or else the incarnation would not have been possible."

You said that after observing "...that one is 'making God into our own image' is thrown around...". You did so following my making the comment that: "...I don't like statements like 'God exists outside of time' as it makes time something separate from God, as if it preceeds God, making God a creature. Such simple statements might make us feel like we are in control, but they influence us to make God into out own image."


To be precise, I didn't throw around whether you were making God in your own image; I remarked that I don't like statements like "God exists outside of time BECAUSE such statements make time something separate from God."



Your own statement did not seem to separate time from God, but rather found something related to time that you expressed a paragraph later (top of this post) as being a point where God and man were "enough similar" and support a "fundamental [no 'im']compatibility."

Now I remarked that the "Hey, Everyone" thread is exploring <FONT face="Times New Roman">"details of our image-bearing in comparision to the Son's image bearing,"
and I advanced that MY STRONG PREFERENCE is to not

There are, I think, analogies between discussing image/image-bearer and being/duration, and in the present context of both discussions going on at the same time, I'm just pointing out to you that at this stage your answering my queations -- some of which you haven't answered. As their are analogies between image/image-bearer and being/duration, we will have to concider Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Glorfication. In that light let me repeat a set of questions here:


1. How does the fall affect time?
2. And what meaning does that have, that the fall brought corruption to being: death?
3. How does the Resurrection change time, either fallen time or creational time?

Discussion of "Hey, Everyone" has Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Glorfication in the background, as well as distinctions and similarities smilewinkgrin between creator and creation. Discussions of God and time require them too.

Now, I really do want a casual discussion. Do you?

Casual discussion is perfectly fine with me, and in fact is precisely what I've been engaged in this entire time, but your questions don't seem to make much, if any, sense to me as time is not a thing (ontologically speaking) but merely an idea; a concept.

Are you asking me how does the fall effect the perception of time? If so, that question would make sense but if you are asking me to what extent time itself is affected by the fall of Adam, then I'm afraid the only possible answer is, "Not at all." The sequence and duration of events, as a concept, is unaffected by the events themselves. Our perception of time may be affected by circumstances but the concept of time itself is unchanged. Thus it would seem clear to me that there is no such distinction as "fallen time" vs "creational time". Time is the sequences and duration of events. That was true before the fall (Genesis 1) and it remains true after. I see no reason, Biblical or otherwise, to think differently.

How am I wrong?

Resting in Him,
Clete
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Clete
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   Posted 12/16/2007 10:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel said...
THIS side of the trumpet call I think this is a useful definition of "time."

PoW: Time is a team of moments that work together, and join us in giving back God's gifts with gratetude, and accepting the help of the Spirit who works in our lives.

B.


How would such a definition apply to those who hate God?
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/17/2007 6:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Clete said...
PotOnWheel said...
THIS side of the trumpet call I think this is a useful definition of "time."

PoW: Time is a team of moments that work together, and join us in giving back God's gifts with gratetude, and accepting the help of the Spirit who works in our lives.

B.


How would such a definition apply to those who hate God?
 
 
 
Perhaps those who hate God make themselves to be their own God, and in so doing they do not offer their lives in gratetude, do not rejoice in the day that the Lord has made, and do not ask for the Spirit's help. Perhaps for them holding on to what they have at the present moment is the rule of life -- like in the parable of the talents --and not investing with the Lord.
 
Thanks for the question. Do you have a thought?
 
Thanks.
 
B.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/17/2007 6:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Clete said...
As their are analogies between image/image-bearer and being/duration, we will have to concider Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Glorfication. In that light let me repeat a set of questions here:


1. How does the fall affect time?
2. And what meaning does that have, that the fall brought corruption to being: death?
3. How does the Resurrection change time, either fallen time or creational time?

Discussion of "Hey, Everyone" has Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Glorfication in the background, as well as distinctions and similarities smilewinkgrin between creator and creation. Discussions of God and time require them too.

. . .

Are you asking me how does the fall effect the perception of time? If so, that question would make sense but if you are asking me to what extent time itself is affected by the fall of Adam, then I'm afraid the only possible answer is, "Not at all." The sequence and duration of events, as a concept, is unaffected by the events themselves. Our perception of time may be affected by circumstances but the concept of time itself is unchanged. Thus it would seem clear to me that there is no such distinction as "fallen time" vs "creational time". Time is the sequences and duration of events. That was true before the fall (Genesis 1) and it remains true after. I see no reason, Biblical or otherwise, to think differently.

How am I wrong?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
If you want you could read my question as "time in light of the fall.
 
I don't think your answer is wrong.
 
But I do also think that time is what we make it. God gives it to us, and we give it back (like the talents) to God.
 
We say "made good time" but mean more than the strict amount; we are also making comparisons and judegements.
 
To me "creational time" (refers to before the fall, or everything serviving the fall as it was) holds a certain 'awe' in that one might wish for a pristine world. But, then again, that was a world, a time, when things were also called to transpire and develop (the naming of the animals). and it was a time cut-short (by sinning). To my eye "fallen time" denotes the brokenness and entropy that the New Jerusalem does not.
 
Sorry, gotta go get the kids up.
 
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 12/17/2007 10:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
3. How does the Resurrection change time...


Revelations 21
10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
11having the glory of God Her brilliance was like a very costly stone...
. . .
23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;


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Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/17/2007 9:09:22 AM (GMT-6)

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Clete
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   Posted 12/17/2007 5:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel said...
Clete said...



PotOnWheel said...

THIS side of the trumpet call I think this is a useful definition of "time."

PoW: Time is a team of moments that work together, and join us in giving back God's gifts with gratetude, and accepting the help of the Spirit who works in our lives.

B.


How would such a definition apply to those who hate God?






Perhaps those who hate God make themselves to be their own God, and in so doing they do not offer their lives in gratetude, do not rejoice in the day that the Lord has made, and do not ask for the Spirit's help. Perhaps for them holding on to what they have at the present moment is the rule of life -- like in the parable of the talents --and not investing with the Lord.



Thanks for the question. Do you have a thought?



Thanks.



B.

I don't understand. What does any of that have to do with a definition of the word "time"?
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