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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Can we go deeper with Time? | Forum Quick Jump
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Clete
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Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 12/17/2007 5:52 PM (GMT -6) |   | PotOnWheel said...As their are analogies between image/image-bearer and being/duration, we will have to concider Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Glorfication. In that light let me repeat a set of questions here: 1. How does the fall affect time? 2. And what meaning does that have, that the fall brought corruption to being: death? 3. How does the Resurrection change time, either fallen time or creational time? Discussion of "Hey, Everyone" has Creation, Fall, Redemption, and Glorfication in the background, as well as distinctions and similarities [img]/emoticons/smilewinkgrin.gif[/img] between creator and creation. Discussions of God and time require them too. . . . Clete said...
Are you asking me how does the fall effect the perception of time? If so, that question would make sense but if you are asking me to what extent time itself is affected by the fall of Adam, then I'm afraid the only possible answer is, "Not at all." The sequence and duration of events, as a concept, is unaffected by the events themselves. Our perception of time may be affected by circumstances but the concept of time itself is unchanged. Thus it would seem clear to me that there is no such distinction as "fallen time" vs "creational time". Time is the sequences and duration of events. That was true before the fall (Genesis 1) and it remains true after. I see no reason, Biblical or otherwise, to think differently.
How am I wrong?
Resting in Him,
Clete
If you want you could read my question as "time in light of the fall. I don't think your answer is wrong. But I do also think that time is what we make it. God gives it to us, and we give it back (like the talents) to God. We say "made good time" but mean more than the strict amount; we are also making comparisons and judegements. To me "creational time" (refers to before the fall, or everything serviving the fall as it was) holds a certain 'awe' in that one might wish for a pristine world. But, then again, that was a world, a time, when things were also called to transpire and develop (the naming of the animals). and it was a time cut-short (by sinning). To my eye "fallen time" denotes the brokenness and entropy that the New Jerusalem does not. Sorry, gotta go get the kids up.
Is it your belief that entropy started with the fall?
If, for example, Adam were to have eaten a Banana and discarded the peal, would the peal have gone through a decay process where it was returned to the earth from which it came? Would Adam have ever even gotten hungry in the first place? If Adam were to have started a fire, would he have had to provide fuel or would it have just continued to burn indefinitely?
Most people have never thought that through before but it would seem to me to be quite inescapable that the law of entropy definitely was active before the fall. I do not believe that Adam and Eve would have ever died without haven fallen first but that isn't quite the same thing because their physical bodies could have been sustained by some other means, like the fruit from the Tree of Life, for example, which would overcome the effects of entropy. At any rate, regardless of the mechanism for the sustaining of life, it is not necessary to suspect that entropy didn't take place just like it does now.
Resting in Him,
CletePost Edited (Clete) : 12/17/2007 4:55:03 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/17/2007 8:55 PM (GMT -6) | |
Clete said...
I don't understand. What does any of that have to do with a definition of the word "time"?
Clete, this thread (begun 7/26/2007--almost five months ago) was given the appropriate title "Can we go deeper with Time?" It worked in a particular way with an ongoing thread at the time, and likewise has a similar relationship with another thread now.
Really, don't let anyone stop you, Clete. If you want a thread called "The Definition of Time" then start one. Go for it.
Certainly that his not what this thread, here, has really ever been. And if you have been thinking so you probably have been getting frustrated and confused.
But haven't I said things like this at least two other times?
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/17/2007 9:07 PM (GMT -6) | |
Is it your belief that entropy started with the fall?
If, for example, Adam were to have eaten a Banana and discarded the peal, would the peal have gone through a decay process where it was returned to the earth from which it came? Would Adam have ever even gotten hungry in the first place? If Adam were to have started a fire, would he have had to provide fuel or would it have just continued to burn indefinitely?
Most people have never thought that through before but it would seem to me to be quite inescapable that the law of entropy definitely was active before the fall. I do not believe that Adam and Eve would have ever died without haven fallen first but that isn't quite the same thing because their physical bodies could have been sustained by some other means, like the fruit from the Tree of Life, for example, which would overcome the effects of entropy. At any rate, regardless of the mechanism for the sustaining of life, it is not necessary to suspect that entropy didn't take place just like it does now.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I bet that both entropy and its opposite have been at play ever since the big bang.
I'm assuming that bacteria in the GI track have worked effectively since, well, a long time.
I think the fall is a real thing in history; but I also accept that Genesis 1 & 2 are not sequential -- they are two very different kinds of stories. We can only speculate how soon or late after they began that Adam and Eve fell. (Augustine thought they fell from a state of perfection--hence the "total depravity" idea to make the fall be of great magnitude. Maximus in the 500s figured that they could have become perfect but were so immature that they were sitting ducks for temptation and half-truths, and the opportunity to sin.)
We might -- and maybe should -- consider the fall into sin as a kind of entropy too, in itself. And the death that resulted from sin and which brought more sin..and death...... is also.
Thanks for your observations, and questions.
B.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/17/2007 9:13 PM (GMT -6) | | |
May be mistaken, but I thought part of this particular set of poems addressed the Nativity, using Time as a literary element.
Anyone know Elliot better?
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/17/2007 9:26 PM (GMT -6) | | My wife knows that I'm not good with names (Translate that to terms and definitions; and being over forty my nouns are going--same as with my Mom.) A subject like TIME has so many perspectives. I do best trying to learn what I should NOT believe to be true. God isn't removed from time--the Greek philosophy thing; nor is he trapped within time, with time being bigger than God (what OV gets accused of, I think). I think I'm on track to say that God's creative acts are in/through/by time. (I'm not a good wordsmith.) But part of the difficulty is found not just with my limited skills and tired brain. Also a factor is that I'm a creature, making any discussion of what sequences are for the Triune God difficult--tempting a form of mental idolatry. And besides the creature/creator gap, the other thing is the place on our own "timeline" between the fall and the New Earth. Time has that "downer" meaning for mortal beings--obviously. But some Orthodox writers have pointed out that that itself is not all bad---that it is better to die and then be raised incorruptible than to just get bad-er and bad-er! They have a point.
So, because that one about eacting children (I should go search for "consume"--maybe better luck.) sounded so depressing, well, becasue of that I'd like to post another quote. This is from Bishop Kallistos Ware (now an older, wise man) who teaches at Oxford. In "The Inner Kingdom" (SVS Press, c.2000) and the chapter "Time: Prison of Path to Freedom" he ends with a section called "Without the meaning there is no time."[
quote:
"Without the meaning there is no time."
In my reflections on time, as perhaps you will have noticed, a transition has taken place. Seeking to answer the question "What is time?" I have been led to speak not just about time itself but about personhood, freedom and love. If time is discussed in the abstract and treated as a "thing" that exists by itself, it proves ever more baffling and more elusive. St. Augustine voices a difficulty familiar to us all: "What is time? If no one asks me, I know; if I try to explain to an inquirer, I do not know." We can only begin to understand the nature of time when we take into account a whole series of other matters as well, such as our experience of growth and decay, of being in relation, of learning to respond Without the meaning there is not time; and there is no such thing as absolute time, for all time is related to persons and their inner experience. Time becomes intelligible only when set in the total context of life (and death) -- indeed, the two terms "time" and "life" are in many respects virtually interchangeable.
It is the Incarnation, we have found, that provides us with a clue to the meaning of time. As "the moment in and our of time," to use Elliot's words, it shows us the interdependence of time and eternity; only sub specie aeternitatis does time acquire its authentic resonance and depth. And the Incarnation, as an act of live addressed to our human freedom, also indicated how time is to be understood in terms of personal relationships, of reciprocity and dialogue. Time, whether we choose to picture it as circle, line or spiral, is not a sexton or jailer, but the safeguard of our human personhood, the protector of liberty and love.
There are two moments in the Divine Liturgy which sum up these to aspects of time. The first is when the celebrant, immediately prior to the opening blessing, uses the words of the angels at the Incarnation, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace. . ." (Luke 2:14); and then the deacon says to him, "It is time for the Lord to act" (Ps 118 [119]:126). It is the vocation of time to be open to eternity; time is fulfilled when God's eternity, God's action, breaks into the termporal sequence, as happened supremely at Christ's birth in Bethlehem, as happens also at every Eucharist. The second moment comes just before the Creed, when the deacon says to the people, "Let us love one another. . ." And the people reply affirming their faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Such exactly is the true rationale of time: mutual love after the image of the Trinity.
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Clete
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Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 12/17/2007 9:49 PM (GMT -6) | | PotOnWheel said...Clete said...
I don't understand. What does any of that have to do with a definition of the word "time"?
Clete, this thread (begun 7/26/2007--almost five months ago) was given the appropriate title "Can we go deeper with Time?" It worked in a particular way with an ongoing thread at the time, and likewise has a similar relationship with another thread now. Really, don't let anyone stop you, Clete. If you want a thread called "The Definition of Time" then start one. Go for it. Certainly that his not what this thread, here, has really ever been. And if you have been thinking so you probably have been getting frustrated and confused. But haven't I said things like this at least two other times?
You just offered a definition of time yesterday!!
My comments were in DIRECT response to that specific post.
You need to take a Zannex or something.
I'm wasting my time here.
My advice to you is to get your head out of the clouds before you pass out.
See ya!
Resting in Him,
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2007 6:31 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2007 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Quote: "I'm wasting my time here."
Observation: Good point. We need a broader use of the word "time" than just what Clete offered as "duration is time." Taken aat face value for me to have "wasted" Clete's time I would have had to do the 'Wrinkle In Time' thing and skip part of the duration -- were that to be X-mas eve many little kids would be sad. So obviously time can be more than just stock 'duration.'
And THAT was my point. (Thanks for supporting it so well, Clete.)  Clete expresses regret that he didn't get enough for his effort, or for his duration. (But the choice was his, as he was well informed.) Bring on T.S.Elliot. And bring on Manzaritis.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2007 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Here's a post of mine from the God refrains from inferring future actions thread:
| Posted 7/24/2002 4:04 AM (GMT -6) |
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There is a really cool little book called "Time and Man" by Manzaridis. The selection of a title betrays the fact that, for us men and women, time is not just a standard metering of equal durations. (I know how to define a sphere as the set of all points equidistant from one point; but I'm not sure how to define "time.") In layman's terms I could define time for a bouncing soccer ball (superatomic--not 'subatomic'--considerations only for me thankyou) with standards called seconds, and the duration of all seconds being equal to each other. That suits soccerballs just fine. But for us men and women, the "second" just before the soccerball hits the top of the man's head while he talks to his wife on the sidelines is "longer" than most other seconds.
This thread seems to me to be about a soccer ball world. It seems to be about "actions" that are soccerball actions. In the accident above, that last second is very different for those who know something is about to happen than those who don't. And to anyone who feels that they can stop the accident, it is also different. And to anyone who succeeds in preventing the hurt it is also different.
"Inferring future actions", it seems to me, is about soccerball time. Given the same events and the same situation, what each one MAKE OUT OF IT is entirely different than mere soccerball facts.
The worry that gestates this thread (mentioned above) is, to me, a red herring.
NO BOUNCING SOCCER BALL LIMITS OUR FREEDOM.
(The more central issue needs to be what consitutes freedom.)
Edited by - (o) on 07/24/2002 10:06:01 AM | |
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/18/2007 6:34:10 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2007 8:51 PM (GMT -6) | |
PotOnWheel said...
feelinahole said...
...my time...
There's that phrase again!
Must be something about it.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2007 8:54 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2007 9:00 PM (GMT -6) | | 
Time and Man by Georgios I. Mantzaridis
Complex philosophical/theological book dealing with time and man's relationship to it. Only about 100 pages, but it's a real mind-melter. Good stuff though
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/18/2007 9:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Georgios Mantzaridis' Time and Man (a philosophical, theological and anthropological look at time and man's relation to it.)
"Just as red-hot iron, without ceasing to be iron, simultaneously becomes fire as well, so too the deified man, without ceasing to be man, simultaneously becomes god. Without ceasing to be a creation of God, he becomes a partaker in the divine life and attains the eternity that is God. He becomes not only eternal, but also unoriginate and everlasting in the image of the eternal and unoriginate and everlasting God. He becomes a son of God, because the Son of God too became man and united himself with man."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/25/2007 5:22 PM (GMT -6) | | MARY'S SONG - LUCI SHAW
Blue homespun and the bend of my breast keep warm this small hot naked star fallen to my arms.
(Rest...you who have had so far to come.)
Now nearness satisfies the body of God sweetly.
Quiet he lies whose vigor hurled a universe.
He sleeps whose eyelids have not closed before.His breath (so light it seems no breath at all) once ruffled the dark deeps to sprout a world.
Charmed by doves' voices,the whisper of straw, he dreams,hearing no music from his other spheres.
Breath, mouth, ears, eye she is curtailed who overflowed all skies,all years.
Older than eternity, now he is new.
Now native to earth as I am, nailed to my poor planet, caught that I might be free, blind in my womb to know my darkness ended,brought to this birth for me to be new-born,and for him to see me mended I must see him torn.
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