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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Reasons to Reject "Eternal Now" Philosophy | Forum Quick Jump
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/4/2008 6:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | jessemorrell said... I don't see how an internal communion amongst the Persons of Trinity excludes time. Rather, I see how an internal communion amongst the Persons of the Trinity requires time.
PoW said: I can use a term like duration, continuation, while with care. But the picture of time within internal commuion becomes one of miosis and mitosis, or DNA strands moving and RNA going to work. What's "inside" becomes crowded like a shopping mall. Look again at the terms Volf used in that quote.
jessemorrell said... This seems to come down to the nature of their communion.
PoW said: Yes, it does. And the now classic book by Zizioulas "Being as Communion" is a gem.
jessemorrell said... If this communion includes a consciousness of each other, an enjoyment of each other, or even dialog amongst them, then this requires sequence.
PoW said: Sounds like a social encounter between three gods.
jessemorrell said... So what is the nature of their communion?
PoW said: Can we begin with those Bible verses?
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/4/2008 6:47 PM (GMT -6) | |
Here's the quote (LINK BELOW) from Miroslav Volf's book, "After Our Likeness: The Church as the Image of the Trinity"
Volf, page 208
3.2 Perichoretic Personhood
1. In their mutual giving and receiving, the trinitarian persons are not only interdependent, but also mutually internal, something to which the Johannine Jesus repeatedly refers: "so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father" (John 10:38; cl. 14:10-11; 17:21). This mutually internal abiding and interpenetration of the trinitarian persons.........determines the charcter both of the divine persons and of their unity.
Read in context HERE:
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Clete
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Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 2/4/2008 11:00 PM (GMT -6) | | It is convoluted.
I don't mean to suggest that it is stupid, just that it is needlessly complex and confusing. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that the relationship that exists within the Trinity is fundamentally any different than the relationships we have with those we love. God loves the Son and the Son returns that love. We understand the concept of love well enough to have a pretty good idea what that means. I understand, of course, that there are added dimensions to the Triune relationship that we cannot understand and don't have any idea about but that is entirely beside the point. The point is that we understand what love is because we have been created with the capacity to love and so all this talk about whether or not God experiences sequence is, frankly, somewhat silly.
Of course God experience sequence! Read Genesis chapter 1 or Revelation 22 lately?
All one needs in order to see that God must experience sequence outside of the creation is to simply ask the question, "Did God exist before the creation?", or "Will God exist after the creation has been destroyed?"
Does not the Bible teach us that God has taken sequence as one of His own names? Is He not the FIRST and the LAST, the Alpha and the Omega? God was the first, and He will be the last. What is that if not sequence?
He was the FIRST born from the dead.
Etc.
The Bible is quite literally full of references to sequence in the context of the very person of God Himself.
And further, the point I was making originally is that this whole discussion about sequence amounts basically to quite an unnecessary rabbit trail because even if one wanted to be stubborn and refuse to be persuaded by the above Biblical evidence concerning sequence, there is no getting around that fact that God did not have a beginning and so very definitely experiences duration, which is the same thing as experiencing time.
Resting in Him,
CletePost Edited (Clete) : 2/4/2008 10:09:01 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/5/2008 7:04 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Clete
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Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 2/5/2008 6:06 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/5/2008 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | |
QUOTE: "Time is not space nor is it a dimension. Time is grace: death is grace rejected, heaven is grace expected and received.”
(This is a quote posted on the first page of this thread.)
Time has a "telios" (an end towards which its purpose points, and which must be understood), and that telios is our salvation.
There is grace in all the days God gives us. But we should be watchful, as this might be our last day. And should we awake tomorrow we should be worshipful and thankful for the "this day" it means God has given us. Likewise, "death is grace rejected, heaven is grace expected and received."
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