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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/24/2004 6:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | Christ didn't die for beliefs, he died for people. Borg, Shank's books are not easily condensed. When you get the money, pick them up. As for Owen, well, of course no one has ever refuted him. He believes as you do.
As I said before, Christ died for all potentially, but the sacrifice only comes into play when one believes, puts faith in it. "refuting" it with universalism only comes into play because people putting faith in God as a choice upsets the balance of God determining everything. So it would be the choice you would make in "attempting" your refutation. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/24/2004 10:14 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by borg
(BORG) [A mouse trap salvation? Well then thank God His trap snapped my neck. Don't think of it in such a negative light.]
(JO-ANNE) Borg, I was responding to this quote of yours:
(BORG) [Christ died for ALL people, for SOMES sins, which would result in the whole world being damned for even if we sin against the law once, we have become breakers of the whole law, and the wages of sin (singular) is death.]
(JO-ANNE) The above quote is what I was referring to as a
"mouse-trap" with salvation being the divine cheese...because we are drawn by the Holy Spirit, then according to your quote above, if Christ died for ALL people (which He did) but "for SOMES sins" and if the result which you said above is that "the whole world being damned for even if we sin against the law once, we have become breakers of the whole law, and the wages of sin (singular) is death," then who could stand? Nobody. God, in effect, would be giving us a salvation that was impossible to obtain if in breaking just one law we would be damned. It would be a mouse trap, so to speak. The cheese would be worth getting until we got it because we would be "damned" because of our free will (our neck would be snapped all right).
Christ died for all sins. Thank God we are not damned if we break just one of His laws. There is no mouse trap. We do not have a Father who makes salvation complicated or difficult and it is not for a select few that He has chosen. That would mean that He created some knowing that they would go to hell. I don't believe that either. The love of God is extended to all. All have the opportunity to receive it. The choice is up to each one. I agree with you Borg, that the Holy Spirit is actively drawing people, pointing them to Jesus Christ, but I do not believe that God's grace is irresistable. It is incomprehensible, compelling and non-coercive. It is inconceivably beautiful, but not irresistable - or it wouldn't be love. Love never forces itself on anyone.
I understood the Father's love for me, was moved by grace to receive it in faith, and will spend the rest of my days attempting to comprehend the depth and riches of His love and grace.
He caught me alright, but not in a trap. His love sets us free - to love Him and love others. (Love does that).
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/25/2004 7:14 AM (GMT -6) | | kingsaint thanks for asking. its because I'm so depraved in my unregenerate state that I can do NOTHING to aide in my salvation. Gen 6:5, Rom 3:10, 11, Jer 17:9, Rom 8:6ff, Eph 2:1-9, Rom 14:23, James 2:10-11, John 3:19-21, Rom 1:18, Heb 11:6, Rom 7:18, John 3:5-7. Some more obvious statements of my own depravity than others, but here's a quick list of verses. Therefore since I am so totally depraved, I have to be drawn by the Holy Spirit, I have to be saved BEFORE I can respond in a positive way to Christ's call to come and follow Him. SALVATION precedes FAITH. This is where Moon and I disagree, but I see no Biblical backing for 1) We can choose God of our free will or 2) Love requires an "untainted" or "non-cohersive" choice to love.
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/25/2004 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | hey Laika thanks for the question and might I add that they are good ones. The first response is that no one can ever be sure of their salvation for the only one who is saved is he who perseveres until the end, Matthew 24:13. The second one is that I can have confidence in the fact that the One who began a good in me WILL carry it out to completion Phil. I also set my hope fully on the grace that has been revealed to me through Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 1. I judge my fruits for only a good tree can bear good fruit and only a bad tree can bear bad fruit. I work out my salvation with FEAR and TREMBELING Phil 2:12. Where there is no fear of God, there is no salvation. And because of Unconditional election what excuse can i make for not being saved? Instead of saying, "Why am I saved" we should be proclaiming, "What can't I, even I be saved?" I have faith that Christ will carry me through until end by His merciful grace.
I'm not totally depraved once the Spirit is living inside of me. That is what makes faith my responsibility, part way. Once I have been saved, God has set me free to follow Him or disobey Him. And though there is no condemnation for those in Christ, Rom 8:1, I still need to take heed to walk in His paths and in His commandments, 1 Jn 4. I believe the Biblical authors because they were inspired by God to write what they wrote. I believe others when they tell me that I was depraved, because they say that I was dead in my sins and tresspasses and now I am made alive and I can see from where I have been saved. But the unregnerate cannot know tht they are depraved, for they are dead in sins's waters and sinking, and yet prideful that they are being well sustained. All I can do is present the Word which Judges the thoughts and actions of the heart, Hebrews 4:13, and wait on the Lord to pick them up and place their feet on solid rocks. But it doesn't help to go tell a dead person he is dead, for he will not hear, unless he is first made alive again and you show him what he use to be like.
does that make sense?
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/25/2004 9:31 AM (GMT -6) | | I can't describe the first step I took, because I didn't take the first step, Christ did. I can know my total depravity by looking to Him and realizing that the things He did, I cannot will to do, because I am so fallen. Just because I am utterly corrupt I don't see how it follows that I couldn't see that. I'm not as bad as I could be, and therefore I know that I am "better" than other people. Other people are not as corrupt as me, therefore I can see that I am "worse" than those people. But Christ is the supreme good, the only one who was not depraved, and until He showed me that I was dead in my sins, by making me alive, I had no idea that I was dead.
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/25/2004 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | 1) We aren't totally depraved in the regenerate state. The Holy Spirit is now working in us to do His good pleasure and has revealed truth to us, Christ has unblinded our eyes.
2) Faith, Trust, and hope is what I rely on. Nothing inside of me, but I believe what is written in the Word, because God has graciously enlightened my mind to His truth. How do I know? Because I know Christ as my Lord, Savior, and King. I feel the wages of war within my "spiritual" self and "fleshly" self that wouldn't seem to be dwelling within the unbeliever.
3) I direct you to my previous posts because I believe this argument is going in circles and things that I have already said aren't being understood. Please specify your questions.
How do you know you're saved?
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 2/25/2004 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
1) We aren't totally depraved in the regenerate state. The Holy Spirit is now working in us to do His good pleasure and has revealed truth to us, Christ has unblinded our eyes.
But how did you get into this state?
quote:
2) Faith, Trust, and hope is what I rely on. Nothing inside of me, but I believe what is written in the Word, because God has graciously enlightened my mind to His truth. How do I know? Because I know Christ as my Lord, Savior, and King. I feel the wages of war within my "spiritual" self and "fleshly" self that wouldn't seem to be dwelling within the unbeliever.
You have not explained how you got into the state you're in.
At one point, someone talked to you and showed you scripture, telling you you were totally depraved. At that point, how did you move from the totally depraved state into that of a believer?
Why did you believe them when they said you were totally corrupt?
If you were, maybe they were. With your totally corrupt senses, how could you trust either them or yourself? You couldn't.
It "just happened"? How do you know? You could still be in a totally depraved state, one so corrupt you're vainly fooling yourself into thinking you're one of the "elect".
In your initial totally depraved state, nothing anyone said or showed you could be trusted due to the total corruption of your senses.
quote:
3) I direct you to my previous posts because I believe this argument is going in circles and things that I have already said aren't being understood. Please specify your questions.
Your "answers" are all presumptive, answers given by someone who's already reached that state of belief. You have not shown how you got to that state considering your initial totally corrupt senses.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 2/25/2004 2:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Borg, to get you beyond your sunday school answers, let's try a different tack.
I visit my friends, Japanese doctors, in Kamakura. Lots of Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines in Kamakura. We go for a walk near their house, visit the Sasuke no Inari shrine and end up at Zenni Arai Benten, the "money washing" shrine. There's a natural spring there and little cups for you to wash your money in, spiritually purifying it. Total depravity, get it?
I decline but look down at all the money in the pool. My friend jokingly says not to take it, that would be stealing. Is my totally depraved, completely corrupted by original sin, socially Buddhist, marginally Shinto doctor friend correct? Would it be stealing?
If a totally depraved, spiritually corrupt, dead in original sin person tells me something, can I assume it's really the opposite?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/25/2004 2:17 PM (GMT -6) | | No one ever came up to me and told me I was totally depraved. Instead they usually told me I was a "good little boy" and that the things I did "put a smile on Jesus' face" how ridiculous.
First, you cannot become a skeptic of all things, that would lead to total despair as well. How do I know that I'm totally depraved? Reason doesn't vanish when we become totally depraved. It's just tainted with sin as is everything! Can the non-Christian do good? yes, perhaps in a human light. But the Bible, which is the governing factor and the standard for everything that is good, holy, and just; tells me what a crappy person I am. I would not be able to understand this, and I would not be able to come to a state of "hating myself" in such a way, if God hadn't enlightened my eyes to the truth. It was God that saved me, I came this point, not because I said some little unbiblical prayer, but because God saved me. How do I know? I have His promises in the Bible. "If anyone confesses with His mouth that Jesus is Lord, he will be saved." "If you desire to follow after me, you will take up your cross daily." The only way I can do either of these is by God's grace alone. I trust in the grace of God more than in what my actions prove. Am I decieving myself? Only those who prosper to the end will be saved. I may be decieving myself now, which I strongly believe against, but the man of intergrity walks securley but he who takes crooked paths will be found out.
I know what up is because I know what down is. I know what heat is because I know what cold is. I know what love is because I know what hate is. I know what spritually dead is, because I know what it is like to be spirtually alive. Those who aren't saved, find the Word of God to be foolishness. Those who aren't saved don't use the Word to live their lives by. Those who aren't saved derive all sorts of man made philosophies that don't stand in light of what scripture says. I know what it is like to be totally depraved because God has imparted on me a grace to know. And yet I still dont' know it in full.
How do you know that you're saved?
Word Alone, Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Christ Alone, God's Glory Alone,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/25/2004 8:33 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by borg
Jo-anne great wishful thinking, but I don't see that preached anywhere in the Bible, i see no verses that even remotley come to back the idea that we have free will. Why does the Holy Ghost even draw us, that seems to be some sort of coheresion to me, and God-forbid we infringe upon our free will. God should just leave our wills untouched in every manner so that it is much more glorious that we actually choose Him shouldn't He?
Hi Borg,
My salvation is not wishful thinking. It is an amazing reality. The Bible states that "If I be lifted up, I shall draw all men to me." Jesus claimed that. We pray for peoples salvation. We ask that the Holy Spirit would work in their hearts and minds and draw them to the Father through Jesus Christ. If we didn't believe this, we would not pray for it. The Spirit is always calling, compelling, persuading, not coercing.
Psalm 37:4 tells us to "delight in Him and He shall gave you the desires of your heart." If we delight in Him then our desires will be what He desires for us. That is the key. We choose to delight in Him. We choose to listen, to act, to follow and our will lines up with His desires for our life "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds....that is "our reasonable act of worship" All of life here and now, is worship. If that doesn't involve our will, I don't know what does.
Wishful thinking? Hardly. Love is more than a noun. It is expressive action and that action is a choice. He empowers us to live and move in His grace, but we must choose to co-operate with Him.
Scripture supports this completely. But so does reason, tradition and experience, the four tenents of theology. Most importantly scripture of course, but the rest speak loud and clear.
Then what is most important is where "the water hits the wheel" to coin an old cliche. What difference does this theology make in my life? How does it affect how I live for God and how I love others?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/26/2004 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Funny that you say the Bible backs this position of "free will" and "love is a choice" and all, and yet fail to point me to Scriptures that say that. I also cannot go along with your John 12 reference, for when Christ is lifted up, in the end times/ final judgment, as the following verses would seem to indicate, yes all men will be drawn to Him. But that's at the final judgment, and I find no reason not to interprut it this way. Besides if the "raise up" meant the crucfixion and "all men" meant all universally, they we are dealing with the problem of universalism aren't we?
Borg
p.s. it was interesting. I went to www.dictionary.com looked up coerce, compel, and persuade, and they're synonyms. Does that mean the Holy Ghost no longer compels or puersuades us to come to Him?
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/27/2004 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by borg
[BORG] [Funny that you say the Bible backs this position of "free will" and "love is a choice" and all, and yet fail to point me to Scriptures that say that.]
(JO-ANNE) I believe that with my whole heart, but I realize that experience and reason are only part of what I believe. Thanks for the challenge to add scripture to this. I'm looking forward to it. I guess every scripture that I've read about salvation speaks of choosing, believing as a choice. Throughout scripture God gave people choices. Revelations 3:20 is a classic example of the Father's heart in giving us a choice. He is a gentleman, always.
As far as dictionary.com (one of my favourite sites as well), I failed to look up those words and you're right - to compell seems very close to coerce. Coersion seems to imply more force though and you would not use those two words interchangeably. It was "a compelling speech" has a much different meaning than "He was coerced." I believe that God's love is compelling. It is a powerful, but not irresistable force. As far as persuasion, that has quite a different meaning. His love is definitely persuasive, but again, not irresistable.
Anyway, I have a full weekend, but I'll take up the challenge. Thanks BORG and God bless,
ir·re·sis·ti·ble (impossible to resist, overpowering)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 2/28/2004 6:32 PM (GMT -6) | | borg
How do I know? I have His promises in the Bible. "If anyone confesses with His mouth that Jesus is Lord, he will be saved." "If you desire to follow after me, you will take up your cross daily." The only way I can do either of these is by God's grace alone.
…
Jo-anne great wishful thinking, but I don't see that preached anywhere in the Bible, i see no verses that even remotley come to back the idea that we have free will.
Iconoclast
The entire bible presupposes that we have free will because it is self-evident. Everyone behaves as though we do have free will because everyone actually believes we have free will. Some folks espouse a non-belief in free will but do not act on that espoused belief. This is what it means to be double-minded – holding an espoused belief but not acting on it. It is much better to fully act on an espoused belief even if it is wrong – this is because to act on it will lead to confirmation or disconfirmation of whether the belief is accurate or not.
If you hold the espoused belief that you can fly but never act on this belief then you will not receive experiential data as to whether it is true or not. Now, it is probably best to test this belief starting at very low altitudes.
The reason faith is so crucial and why acting out of faith is not sin is because faith is nothing but acting on an espoused belief. It is to stop being double-minded and to start being open to God’s truth. If one acts out of faith in their belief that they can fly they will experientially learn God’s truth about whether they can or can’t.
Jim_Mottl
If God's love is unconditional, why is salvation conditional?
Iconoclast
Love must be chosen or it is not love. Love entails choice. Salvation is nothing but a human choosing to love God. It is a human simply doing God’s will which is nothing but loving God. The law and the prophets are summed up in the first commandment (the second is like unto the first) – love God and love your neighbor. Believing in Jesus – that Jesus unconditionally loves us – frees us up to choose to love Him back if we so choose. Faith in Jesus is nothing but acting out of the belief that Jesus loves us. To act out of the belief that Jesus loves us is to love Jesus and to love others. And when we act out of this belief we will experience Jesus’ love for us and for others which of course reinforces the belief which reinforces the action which reinforces the belief … and THIS is how we know we are saved – we directly experience Jesus’ love for us and for others.
Salvation is not conditional it is simply a choice. God loves us so much He does not force Salvation on us instead He dies on a cross in an all-out attempt to convince us to make a wise and beautiful choice. What more could He possibly do…
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 3/9/2004 6:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Icon, I'm intrigued by what you say. You say that it is better to act on an espoused belief because this will confrim or disconfirm the truth. Well the majority of the world believes themselves to not be lost, not in need of a Savior, and yet Scripture teaches differently. where do we conclude that Scripture overides experience? Or do we want to solely be an empiricist?
About your idea of everyone living with the impression of free will, perhaps, but I would argue not libertarian free will. You are not bringing into the idea of free moral agency versus free will. Augustine never denied free will and neither have other good reformed people. They simply say either the will is in bondage to sin or righteousness, and when in sin, the will can choose nothing other than sin. Therefore people can live their lives with choices, however these choices are not Libertarianly Free, they are in bondage. Either to God to do His will Phillipians 2 or to the Devil to do his will 2 Timothy 2.
Blessings
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 3/10/2004 8:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi All,
I’m new here and this is my first post, so I guess I’ll jump in here.
I really could not agree more with the statement you made here.
Quote:
Love is more than a noun. It is expressive action and that action is a choice. He empowers us to live and move in His grace, but we must choose to co-operate with Him.
Though the exact term “free will” is not used in the Bible, it’s obvious that God did give man a CHOICE as to weather or not he will believe in him or follow his teachings.
Deut. 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Unfortunately, unlike candy, there are only TWO choices here, life or death, blessing or cursing. So if God says to choose one of two, let’s see, that must mean that somewhere in there I have FREE WILL to pick one or the other.
Of course the argument can be made (and I am sure it will) that this is THE OLD TESTAMENT, and nothing applies to us to today. Therefore we have to take a close look at the New Testament, to prove that the Lord who changes not still sets a choice before each man, that of life or death, blessing or cursing, and hence gives each man the “free will” to choose.
The best way to do this is to look up words like “will”.
WILL.....
2 Timothy 2:12
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
To be “dead with him” is to follow the instructions to crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts. Now we can “choose” not to do that on a daily basis. We can “choose” not to suffer with him by simply “choosing” not to live a godly life, for all those who “endeavor” to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution in one form or another. By “choosing” not to do these thing, we in effect “choose” to deny him. So in a sense we have free will, in that we have a CHOICE BETWEEN TWO, life or death, blessing or cursing, following what Christ commanded or NOT following what Christ commanded.
Rev. 2:5 also shows that men have a clear choice.
Rev. 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Obviously these persons had a “CHOICE” to make. To repent or not to repent that was the question, or in this case the option. Each option, each choice carried with it, it’s corresponding consequences. I mean these are just a few minute examples, for the NT is jam packed full of statements which show, that we have a choice between TWO different things, life or death, blessing or cursing. It’s obvious from the above statement that Jesus made, that he wasn’t going to FORCE them to repent against their will. The option was open to them.
It seems like every promise to man regarding his final salvation winds up being dependent on what a man freely chooses to do. And it all hinges on one big “IF”.
1 Cor. 15:2
By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
If you choose to remember his commandments to do them, you wind up saved, IF not then you have believed in vain, that is to no avail, because just initially believing in Jesus won’t save you. He specifically said to those who had just believed in him in John 8, “IF you CONTINUE in my Word, you will be my disciples indeed and you will know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” In coming to set us “free from sin”, what Jesus did was teach us how to think and act according to what God’s will for our behavior was. In this every person CHOOSES IF he is going to do it or not, on a daily basis in every situation, under every circumstance. We choose to over come evil with good or not to overcome evil with good, but rather to just do evil ourselves. That is the free will God has given us, to choose between good and evil, live and death, blessing and cursing, each and every day in each and ever circumstance of life.
For instance we can choose for a while to get our thinking and actions in alignment with the will of God and live accordingly. However there can always come that time when we can then choose to not to that any longer or quit doing it for some reason or the other. In that case we find ourselves under another great big IF.
Gal. 2:18
For IF I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Heb 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For IF they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Romans 11:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Just these few of the hundreds of uses of the word IF, show clearly that God has given us all a CHOICE. Now maybe we shouldn’t call it “FREE WILL” since there are basically only two choices. So it’s not like you are free to choose neither one, and go find something else. So I guess technically we don’t have total FREE WILL, since I can’t say “I CHOOSE NEITHER, I THINK I’LL BE A BUDDHIST.”
Hundreds of places that show clearly God gave us all a choice and that this choice continues clear on up till you die or he returns which ever comes first. For the fact is that people often do not believe that God gave them a choice because they don’t want to make that choice to begin with. As long as God supposedly makes all the choices for them, then they think they can escape both responsibility for their choices and the consequences there of.
In Christ,
Larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 3/10/2004 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Ross: what is your defintion of sin?
1 John 3:7ff "Little children, let no one decieve you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God DOES NOT SIN, for His seed remains in him; and he CANNOT sin, because he has been born of God."
Romans 7:15ff "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) NOTHING good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."
larris welcome, thanks for the post. However conditional statements like many that you produced, in no way say that man has the ability to choose between good and evil.
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 3/12/2004 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | |
I guess the question would be here....
"WHAT IS SEED"?
As in "for his seed remains in him and he CANNOT SIN because he is born of God."
I was originally taught that the "SEED" was the Holy Spirit. That, one believed in Jesus, death, resurrection et., sinners prayer, alter call, confess Rom. 10:9&10, et. et., presto chango you get the Holy Spirit and you are "born again".
Hence, having this spirit makes you a Son of God; hence this spirit is like "seed". And perhaps in a sense this is true, BUT is that the SEED that John is speaking of in 1John? Let's back up a few verses and then a chapter to see.
1 John 3:5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him was no sin. Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins (meaning, making a habitual practice out of it.) has not seen him, neither known him.
It seems here that the key to not sinning is not necessarily having the Holy Spirit abiding in you, but YOU ABIDING IN HIM. And so the question arises; What is it to "ABIDE IN HIM"? We back up a chapter or two and see that John was very clear on this.
1John 2:6 He that said he abides in himought himself also to walk even as he walked.
We back up another verse and what "abiding in him",is, is clarified even further.
1John 2:5 But whoso KEEPETH HIS WORD,in him verily is the love of God perfected.
Hence we know that to sin not, means one must abide in him, and that abiding in him, means that one must KEEP HIS WORD. Therefore it goes back to what Jesus originally taught that the seedis, which is what the sower sows.
Matt. 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the wayside.
But he that received the seed into stony places the same is he that hears the word, and anon with joy receives it; Yet has he not root in HIMSELF, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Each person chooses as to weather they will abide in him or not, weather they will let his WORD remain in their heart or not, by choosing to abide in him, by letting his words abide in them. Each and every day I can choose in each and every situation, as to weather I will do what he commands in his word or not do what he commands in his word. I choose to first get my head into the Word of God and then get the words of the Word of God into my head. Then if all goes well, when a daily situation comes up in life, I will practice doing what he commands given the situation. That is I choose to PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS, by choosing to REMEMBER HIS COMMANDMENTS TO DO THEM.
However because this is something we are to "practice", something we are and will probably never be perfect at, we will still sin. However sinning on occasion, when one really is trying to abide in him, remember his commandments to do them, and just forgetting his commandments all together, never taking the time to even learn them, and just living your life according to however you feel, is habitual sin, and John makes a distinct difference in the two in his first epistle.
1John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light (the entrance of thy Word giveth light.), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have not sin, (when we do sin) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins (when we do sin), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned (when we sin) we make him a liar and HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.
The whole purpose that John even wrote these epistles was because of people giving erroneous interpretations to the gospel of Christ, the gospel of grace. As he says in 2:26, "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." Men were coming around giving an esoteric, mystical interpretation to the gospel, which basically taught that even if you sinned, you didn't really sin, because what ever anyone dose in the flesh doesn't count. They taught that you cannot sin "in the spirit", and that's the only reality.
Unless you understand the false gospel that men were trying to deceive people with at the time John wrote this, you will not truly understand what he was trying to convey throughout. You have to realize that men were teaching that it was OK to love God and hate your brother.
John also makes it clear what it is to abide in him and to be born of God.
1John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because you have know him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the wicked one.
These were men that John personally knew, and so he knew what they did, what they practiced. These men overcame the wicked one, that is overcame sin, because they let the Word of God dwell in them, by them first dwelling in the Word. Hence they remembered his commandments to do them. However this is a very hard thing to do, it calls for much commitment and practice in your everyday life. Therefore when men come along teaching an ALTERNATIVE, that says you don't have to or you or CAN'T do anything, because it's God's grace or spirit that dose it all, and you can't effect it one way or the other, then since it is with some degree of difficulty that one maintains ones self in the Word, it is TEMPTING to fall away to this new fangled interpretation of the gospel.
It was NEW FANGLED then, however it's OLD HAT now. And this is the very doctrine, that John warned about way back then, of which we are debating now. And really it wasn't even "new" way back then; it was a belief that found its formation out of the mysticism of Greek philosophy and theology. It became NEW or NEO as it was applied for the first time to the gospel, and given a Christian interpretation. It was Platonic in origin, and became "neo-platonic", when it added the gospel of Christ, to it's repitwa of pagan beliefs. Search and see that before the Christians ever adopted pagan philosophy, the pagan philosopher adopted the NEW teachings of Christ, giving them their own interpretation. Going so far as to accuse the Christians, of actually corrupting His teachings.
Paul in no way promoted this interpretation, but actually warned about it.
Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you (meaning lead you off as prey), through PHILOSOPHY (Greek philosophy specifically that of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle), and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.
In speaking in Romans 7, Paul was in no way advocating that one did not have free will to sin or not sin, (SIN being what Paul and the Word in general defines it as, of which we will list later.) rather he was describing what took place when a man kept himself under the legalistic requirements of THE LAW. However Christianity has taught that the verses in Rom. 7 apply to the Christian under grace, when if, you back up, you find that Paul was talking about a man under The Law. For if you remember it says somewhere also that the LAW made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better promise did."
So let's take this scripture which was given and back up to see what Paul was truly speaking of.
Romans 7:15ff "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) NOTHING good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."
And backing up;
14. For we know that THE LAW is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Yes a man under THE LAW was carnal and SOLD under sin. However that same man after the sacrifice of Christ was BOUGHT BACK, i.e. redeemed.
Let's back up some more to see, that Paul was speaking of the condition of a man, under the Law, and before Christ.
13. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by THE COMMANDMENT might become exceeding sinful.
And what commandment is he speaking of? The gospel? No, let's back up to see he's still speaking of a man under THE LAW.
12. Wherefore THE LAW is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
By the time we get on to verse 15-20, Paul is STILL speaking about a man under THE LAW. Yet these verses have by Christian teachers over the centuries been taken out of context and applied to a man under the gospel of Christ. Under THE LAW men were still in bondage to sin, but in Christ, in accepting and following his teachings a man is FREE to choose to do the will of God.
But let's back up some more to see how Paul is truly speaking about THE LAW and not a man under the gospel of Grace.
Let's go to the first verse of the chapter.
Rom. 7:1 Know you not, brethren, (FOR I SPEAK TO THEM THAT KNOW THE LAW.)how THE LAW has dominion over a man as long as he lives.
skipping down to verse 4
4. Wherefore, my brethren you also are become dead TO THE LAW, by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were BY THE LAW, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
This is exactly what Paul was speaking about when you get to verses 15-20. Under the law, a man could not help but sin.
Paul makes this plain, as he continues.
6. But now we are delivered from THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is THE LAW sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by THE LAW: for I had not known lust, except THE LAW had said, Thou salt not covet. But sin taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without THE LAW sin was dead. For I was alive without THE LAW once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore THE LAW is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
And now the verses most commonly applied to a man under grace are given their proper context as applying to a man UNDER THE LAW, then state;
For we know that THE LAW is good: but I am carnal, sold under sin. FOR... (Which always means it corresponds with what was just said.)
FOR that which I do (when I am under THE LAW) I allow not: for what I would (when I am under THE LAW) that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (When I am under THE LAW) If I do that which I would not, I consent unto THE LAWthat it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me, (that is IN MY FLESH)dwelleth no good thing.
For to will (to want to do THE LAW) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
However this is not the case with the man who believes on Jesus Christ and has the Holy Spirit to guide him into the truth of the Word of God, so that he can then KEEP the Word. A man in Christ is then FREE from the bondage of sin, and the bondage of the flesh to choose to do that which is good.
19. For the good that I would I do not (when I am under THE LAW) but the evil which I would not, that I do. (WHEN I am under THE LAW)
20. Now if I do that I would not, (When I am under THE LAW) it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law (when I am under THE LAW) that when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in THE LAW of God, after the inward man; But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (which was THE LAW he read and delighted in) and bringing me into captivity, to the law of sin which is in my members.
HOWEVER when a man believes in and accepts Christ he is freed from that law of sin, that was in his members, meaning NOW he can CHOOSE to do what is good or right or righteous and DO IT. He can also choose NOT to do it. IN CHRIST he is now a free moral agent.
24 O wretched man that I am (context clearly shows when one is UNDER THE LAW) who shall deliver me from this body of death?)
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord, So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul is simply thanking God, that God made THE LAW so that it wouldn't work. And why did God make THE LAW so that it would not work, that it would not produce perfect righteousness? He made it that way so that those who accepted his son, could then be set free from the law of sin and death that THE LAW produced. And now he makes this clear distinction.
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation (judgment)to them who walk not after the flesh (try and walk after THE LAW of the OT), but after the Spirit. For THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS has made me FREE from THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.
You got TWO laws here. You have:
1. THE LAW of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
And;
2. THE LAW of sin and death.
The LAW of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, is THE GOSPEL he taught.
The LAW of sin and death, are the commandments given to Moses. That which he was speaking of when he said, the things which I would not that I do, and that which I would I do not et. Under that law people were in bondage to sin. If you don't believe so just ask King David. David who loved the Lord, loved the word of the Lord, loved the Law. And yet what did he do? We in this day and time are not bound up in such things IF we don't want to be. We are FREE in Christ, to escape, for in every temptation today, our God has made us a way to escape. Not so in OT times, and under the LAW of SIN AND DEATH.
And now Paul again shows that this is clearly what he is speaking of as he continues.
8:3 For what THE LAW COULD NOT DO, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; THAT the righteousness of THE LAW might be fulfilled in us, who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after THE SPIRIT.
However what is "walking after the spirit"?
8:5 For they are after the flesh (those who walk after the flesh) do MIND (CONSTANTLY THINK ABOUT) the things of the flesh. But they that are after the Spirit (those who WALK after the spirit) the things of the spirit (the MIND the things of the spirit, that is they constantly THINK about the things of the spirit, hence then constantly think about and abide in the gospel of Christ, his teachings, his commandments, his promises, his will for us et.)
8:6 For to be carnally minded (just thinking about the things of this world all the time.) is death. But to be spiritually minded (choosing to thinking about the teachings of Christ) is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind (that mind which is constantly caught up in the affairs of this life, and the things of the world.) IS ENMITY AGAINST GOD: For it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.(Constantly thinking about the world and what you need for your flesh produces death, the wrong behavior, attitudes et., hence sin. You cannot be obedient and subject to God if that is all you think about.)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Those who never put the Word of Christ in their head, who do not abide in his words and let his words abide in them are IN THE FLESH. And without the WORD of God, the teachings of Christ in your head, which will set you free from the law of sin and death, you will then not be able to please God, because you will not be able to do the things you really want to do, which is to do his will.)
9. But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his.
Well WHAT IS THE SPIRIT IF CHRIST?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profits nothing; THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.
The WORDS that Jesus spoke were SPIRIT AND THEY WERE (and still are) LIFE
Paul makes it clear that to be spiritually minded is to have the WORD OF CHRIST DWELLING IN YOU RICHLY. This is something every man CHOOSES to do or NOT to do. No one forces you to READ or not read. No one forces you to remember his commandments of not to remember them. This is something that is COMPLETELY up to each and every individual. You determine what kind of HEART you are going to have. You determine what kind of field the seed will be planted in. For as it is written "Guard they heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life."
When Paul speaks of being "led by the spirit", he is speaking according to the context of what Jesus taught, that the WORDS Jesus spoke the were SPIRIT and they were life. And it is only in reading Romans 8 in this context that we will properly apply the original gospel message.
Rom. 8:9...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ (his WORDS dwelling in him.) he is none of his. And if Christ be in you (by having his WORDS dwelling in you) the body is dead, but the spirit (His words) is life because of righteousness (because his words dwelling in you, help you to remember his commandments to do them, and so you do the right thing and produce or PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS.)
8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his spirit that dwells in you.
As you abide in the Words of Christ and his Words abide in you, and you practice doing what he said to do, the spirit of God, strengthens your mortal body, and you get better and better at walking in the light as he is light. Hence even though you are not perfect at this walk, and sin on occasion, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you from all sin, as you confess that sin, and keep walking with him, abiding in his words.
Now Paul clearly shows we can choose or choose not to do all of this.
Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. (We are bound because of what Christ did, to choose to THINK about his word and endeavor to keep his commandments. We are not in debt to the flesh, we don't have to live accordingly.)
13 For IF you live after the flesh (which he already clarified is "mining the flesh", which is constantly thinking about the things of this world, being carnal minded.) ...IF you live after the flesh you shall die. But if through the spirit (following the teachings of Christ his WORD that was spirit and life.) you mortify the DEEDS of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are LED by the SPIRIT of God (the words of Jesus Christ), they are the sons of God.
And then that brings us back to what John said in his first epistle.
1 John 2:14 ...I have written unto you young me, because you are strong and the WORD OF GOD ABIDES IN YOU, AND YOU HAVE OVERCOME THE WICKED ONE.
As Jesus said, "except you abide in me you can do NOTHING." But if you abide in him, by abiding in his words and letting his words abide in you, you can do anything. Unlike Paul who stated that under THE LAW, the thing that he willed to do he could not do. You can literally do righteousness when the word of Christ dwells in you richly.
John was speaking in his first epistle to those who had learned the Words of Christ, and were literally practicing them. Only when you apply this truth to the reading of the epistle can it be properly understood. Just because it says something dose not mean it applies to you, if you are not knowing and doing what THEY did. Overcoming the wicked one dose not apply to me, UNLESS his words are remaining in me, and I am literally doing as he said to do, and thus overcoming the wicked one.
Truth is that those who have believed on Jesus are all "called" sons’ of God. The determining factor in the end though will be as to weather one kept one's self legitimate or instead choose to ignore his words, live his own way, and thus make himself and illegitimate child or as Hebrews said "a bastard". Only legitimate children will eventually inherit the kingdom of God.
You take a human king, and only the legitimate heir got the crown. The king may have had other children, with the serving maid, but her children were not legitimate heirs. Now where as in a regular situation of that sort, a child cannot help it if he's illegitimate in our case as children of God, we choose to be legitimate children, by rising up to the behavior and grace of the King. Those people who accept Christ, and do not rise up to the standard of his Words, learning to walk as he walked, and love as he loved, make themselves "children of disobedience", and hence unrightfully heirs of salvation, because they do not have those things that are needful to accompany salvation.
It's a choice it's up to each and every one of us, as to weather or not we will let THE SEED, the WORDS of Christ dwell in us. The Holy Spirits only job is to help each and every one of us do that. But we can choose not to listen to him.
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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