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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 3/13/2004 3:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | 2 Peter 3:3,5-7
Knowing htis first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts. / For this they willinglyare ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth stading out of the water and in the wather: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with wather perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Heb. 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willingto live honestly.
2 Cor. 8:12 For if there first be a willing mind, it is accepted according to what a man has, and not according to that he has not.
Paul showed that a man could "will" not NOT "will" to do what God asked of them.
1 Cor 9:16
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation is committed unto me, what then is my reward? Verily that, when I preach the gospel I may make the gospel of Chrsit without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. For though I be free from all, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gaint the more.
1 Peter 5:2
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight not by constraint, but willingly;
Matt. 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
It's interesting that there are 17 usages of the word freewillin the Old Testament. Most of these regard offerings of silver and gold et. One regards people of their free will choosing to go to Jerusalem, and another regards the following.
Psl. 119:108
Accept, I beseech thee, the freewillofferings of my mouth, O Lord, and teach me thy judgments.
Regarding what parts of what we call the Old Testament, Paul stated applied to us, for use, to those in Christ, he stated the following.
Eph 5:18
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but befilled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in Psalmsand hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart ot the Lord;
Col. 3:16
LET the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalmsand hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
1 Peter 2:16
As freeand not using your libertyas a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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| Posted 3/15/2004 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Ross, perhaps if they were so prideful that they believed they could do so, "yes." God calls us to be perfect and yet we cannot and He'll punish all who can't be perfect. And I don't know if I would so quickly say that we're damned because we don't "love" God. How well does the Christian love God? Not very much. That's what is so AMAZING about GRACE. Does God have the right to do what He wants with the things He created for His own glory? YES.
Larris, ???. Am I to assume that you haven't studied much of the Calvinist's side? Perhaps you have and perhaps your information has been way off base. But these verses prove nothing and some are grossly out of context. Please elaborate. **Philosophy is the governing factor on this site not theology, at least that is what I have discovered, sad as it is.** But these verses do deserve explaining, especially why you presuppose that man has this capable will before the Lord so chooses to change Him.
blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 3/15/2004 6:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Larris, ???. Am I to assume that you haven't studied much of the Calvinist's side? Perhaps you have and perhaps your information has been way off base. But these verses prove nothing and some are grossly out of context. Please elaborate. **Philosophy is the governing factor on this site not theology, at least that is what I have discovered, sad as it is.** But these verses do deserve explaining, especially why you presuppose that man has this capable will before the Lord so chooses to change Him.
larris posts a bunch of bible verses that show we have will and you say it's philosophy and not theology?
The fact we have free will is so common and intuitive and scriptural, I can't believe we're even arguing that fact.
Borg, since you claim you're so totally depraved and corrupted by original sin, why should we believe anything you say?
borg still doesn't understand the liars paradox.
If a totally depraved person tells you all people are totally depraved, can you believe him?
borg says his initial state was total depravity. I believe him. Now he's says he knows that he's been regenerated because of scripture and the spirit. But since I initially believe he's totally depraved, I don't believe anything he says subsequently. Not a single thing he says is trustworthy because I've accepted his initial belief that his initial state is total depravity. ANYTHING he says is unbelieveable because it's coming from a totally depraved being, corrupt and at war with God in all ways. 
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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| Posted 3/15/2004 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: you keep hitting these bulleyes and your merit badge in archery will be coming in the mail | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 3/15/2004 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Another question for TD borg.
For an example, incest is:
"a taboo in most societies and a criminal offence and an impediment to marriage in most countries, as well as being opposed by most modern religions." -- wikipedia
Now if unregenerate man is TOTALLY depraved, so corrupt, NO GOOD thing is in them, TOTALLY at war with God and far removed from His wisdom, that must mean God is FOR incest, correct?
Or, have some TOTALLY depraved people stumbed unto some of God's truth, that incest is wrong? That would make TOTAL something less then, um, TOTAL.
Whatever answer you think of, remember, it's a TOTALLY depraved mind at work, so question it's veracity.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 3/15/2004 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Professor Laika, please let me raise my hand and ask a question. Are all of us born with a moral conscience?
Thanks, A Curious Mind | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 3/15/2004 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
re: a moral conscience?
Yes.
We all are born morally neutral. You developed your nature over the course of your choices. Let me quote the Doobie Brothers here: "What Once Were Vices Are Now Habits".
Romans 1 shows how we are all responsible for the available information we have about God, whether in nature, in testimonies, in revelations of God.
Scripture says we don't know God because we don't seek God and if we seek God, we will find God. So the ability and subsequent responsibilty lies on us.
Then there's the testimony of a friend of mine who grew up Zorastrian in Pakistan. She sought God, trying and abandoning Zorastrianism and Catholicism on the way until she found Jesus. She reasoned that she should not worship fire (Zorastrianism) NOR dead people (catholicism) until she discovered the one man who conquered death, Jesus.
The ONLY way for a JUST God to condemn people is by giving them the ABILITY and CHANCE to make their own moral decisions.
The good old Doobie Brothers,  hmmm all these years I thought they were talking about habitual “doobies”.
Excuse me Professor Laika, but I’m a little confused, must have been the doobies, please explain how it works. If a morally neutral young girl that was seeking God, developed over the course of her life long choices, a habit of praying from her heart to this man on the cross named Jesus. Then one day when she became a young woman, someone offers her the choice to discover a new church (right church) after she has made a habit of praying at the wrong church (catholic).
1) If she went to the right church, would she have a guilty conscience the rest of her life?
2) What would happen to her, if with a clean conscience, she choose to continue to pray at the wrong church?
Thanks, A Curious Mind  | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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| Posted 3/15/2004 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Spark: is the title "professor" suppose to be rude or funny (or a little bit of both). From my perspective, yours is a false dicotomy. What makes your "churches" true or false? (or right). Please explain.
The catholic church your girl is going to may be (as an individual church, not as a CATHOLIC church) the best church for her to draw close to God. I do not, predominately, see churches as black and white as you seem to be doing.
In any cause, how can a teenager make life long choices...I don't know many teenagers who know where they are going to college, so that part of your tail is off as well... | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 3/15/2004 1:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
If a morally neutral young girl that was seeking God, developed over the course of her life long choices, a habit of praying from her heart to this man on the cross named Jesus. Then one day when she is a teenager, someone offers her the choice to discover a new church (right church) after she has made a habit of praying at the wrong church (catholic).
1) If she went to the right church, would she have a guilty conscience the rest of her life?
2) What would happen to her, if with a clean conscience, she choose to continue to pray at the wrong church?
Thanks, A Curious Mind
You talking about the Pakistani lady? She grew up in a Zorastrian household. At age 13 they took her to the Zorastrian temple for initiation, to worship fire. She didn't, reasoning that fire is a created thing. Later she met some catholics who evangelized her but she reasoned why pray to dead people? (the "saints") Call it what you want; her testimony, not mine. Later she met protestant missionaries who introduced her to Jesus.
Is this hard to understand? She used her unregenerate mind to make decisions and reason as she sought the true God. She didn't save herself, she accepted the free gift of salvation that Jesus offered her.
Our job is to introduce people to Jesus, the ONLY true God.
As for your hypothetical situation, I have no opinion.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 3/15/2004 2:18 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 3/15/2004 2:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Spark: is the title "professor" suppose to be rude or funny (or a little bit of both). From my perspective, yours is a false dicotomy. What makes your "churches" true or false? (or right). Please explain.
The catholic church your girl is going to may be (as an individual church, not as a CATHOLIC church) the best church for her to draw close to God. I do not, predominately, see churches as black and white as you seem to be doing.
In any cause, how can a teenager make life long choices...I don't know many teenagers who know where they are going to college, so that part of your tail is off as well...
I love Laika and would never want to be rude. Laika has been my mentor, sharing a wealth of knowledge while helping me along in my spiritual growth. The Professor has even taught me the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.
Peace
P.S. I love "church" and evil people. I just hate EVIL. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 3/15/2004 2:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Is this hard to understand? She used her unregenerate mind to make decisions and reason as she sought the true God. She didn't save herself, she accepted the free gift of salvation that Jesus offered her.
Sounds good to me. God bless her! | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 3/15/2004 2:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
The Professor has even taught be the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.
Peace
African Swallow or European Swallow?
Darn, I always forget. 
In all seriousness Laika, what is your take on the moral conscience that we are all born with? Do you credit it to our creation in “the image of God” or is it due to the “Fall”?
How does it differ from the Spirit in terms of guiding us away from evil or towards good?
Can you share any good resources on the subject?
Johnmd made some good points about the conscience vs the Spirit over on the "Complicity" in evil thread.
Thanks | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 3/15/2004 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
In all seriousness Laika, what is your take on the moral conscience that we are all born with? Do you credit it to our creation in “the image of God” or is it due to the “Fall”?
How does it differ from the Spirit in terms of guiding us away from evil or towards good?
Can you share any good resources on the subject?
Thanks
Here's a brief outline.
1. Hold an infant, ask yourself, "does this infant have a conscience?" The obvious answer is no. And because it's so obvious and intuitive, scripture doesn't spend lots of time explaining, "infants are not sinners". Any proof texts of "original sin" are bogus. We've covered them on other threads. We can cover them again.
Forster says that Augustine's proof texts for original sin were Romans 5:12, a mistranslation in the Latin septuagint, the apocryphal Wisdom 12:10, 11 and Ecclesiasticus 40:11, the Septuagint (but not Hebrew) of Job 14:4, 5 and Psalm 51:5. We've covered Psalm 51:5, at David's conception, who were the agents present? David's biological father and mother, not David. Someone other then David was sinning at his conception. Otherwise, was the sperm and/or the egg part of David sinning? See how ridiculous it gets?
2. Would God hold someone incapable of doing something responsible for not doing it? Doesn't this violate your innate sense of fairness? Most of Jesus' analogies were parent/child analogies. If your earthly father wouldn't beat you, at age 3, for not dunking the basketball, why would your heavenly father punish you for choosing sin when that's all you could do? Look at the tons of parent/child verses in scripture, get the feel for what's being said. There's no way I'd punish my daughters for something they're incapable of doing or not doing. Why would I think God isn't that way as well?
3. People FREAK at the idea that we have some power over sin. Why? Enoch was taken up by God even though he didn't die. The only way Enoch could have been so pleasing to God AND been taken into heaven is that for a period of time before he was taken up, HE HAD NOT SINNED. Repeat, for a period of time, Enoch lived a SINLESS life. Calvinists go epileptic at the thought. We are to strive for holiness NOW because of the possibility we can achieve it NOW.
"Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect" is a command in scripture.
4. Jesus was tempted in ALL ways JUST LIKE US. That means he had the SAME TOTAL ability to choose sin or not that we have. Exact same. Because He was JUST LIKE US and still chose not to sin, He can be our High Priest. That's why He came to earth and became a human. "But the God part of Jesus didn't sin" they say. THEN WHY DOES SCRIPTURE BRAG ABOUT IT???? I ask. Scripture brags about it because IT WAS A BIG DEAL, the human Jesus didn't sin. Du-uh
5. The ideas of infant baptism and original sin came into the church at the same time, around the fourth century. Makes sense, doesn't it? Bad theology begats bad theology.
6. Yes, people talk about "propensity" to sin and all that cack but I think it just muddies the water and confuses the issue. We are born into a fallen world and the cards are stacked against us but we can still choose right.
7. The mystery of sin lies in us. 'Why do I choose to do that which I do not want to do?' Paul asked. He didn't ask 'Why does God arrange for some to do bad things and some to do good things?' The mystery lies NOT in God or His will or purposes (no "hidden purposes" in God, He wrote it all down in Jesus) but the mystery lies in us. That's why sin has been called insanity.
Maybe someone educated in theology could lay it out better, I've just been thinking about it for 20+ years.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 3/15/2004 4:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
7. The mystery of sin lies in us. 'Why do I choose to do that which I do not want to do?' Paul asked. He didn't ask 'Why does God arrange for some to do bad things and some to do good things?' The mystery lies NOT in God or His will or purposes (no "hidden purposes" in God, He wrote it all down in Jesus) but the mystery lies in us. That's why sin has been called insanity.
Thanks Laika for your response. I don’t know if “original sin” and our moral “conscience” are the equivalent. I think that the early church probably used people’s “guilty conscience” to shame them and help reinforce the notion of original sin.
Romans 2:14-15 (NLT)
"Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right."
Anyways, I’m intrigued (or going insane) on how it could be used for some “greater good” and plan on doing further research on the subject. Peace be with you, Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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| Posted 3/15/2004 8:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Just because we are depraved does not mean we cannot "grasp" truth. And because of the very FACT that we are depraved, I suppose that makes it all the more necesary for GRACE! You shouldn't believe me; you should believe the Word of God. it's not like I can make you believe or force you to, only the work of the Holy Ghost can.
Larris' verses proved NOTHING! about Libertarian Free will. No Calvinist would deny that fact that man has a will. You are not catching onto this. And I'm not saying that this argument is more philosophical, I was being sarcastic because I come here not to find biblical arguments, for they are few and far between, but philosophical arguments and respond in a Biblical way.
Borg
p.s. Calvinists (despite the name) don't need to write a book refuting Open Theism, we have the Holy Writ :)
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 3/16/2004 1:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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larris
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| Posted 3/16/2004 5:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Larris, ???. Am I to assume that you haven't studied much of the Calvinist's side? Perhaps you have and perhaps your information has been way off base. But these verses prove nothing and some are grossly out of context. Please elaborate.
Answer: Besides studying the doctrines of men like Calvin, I tend also to look at their lives and the fruit they produced. The fruit is not only their own actions, but also what fruit is produced in the individuals within their respective denominations. Since Jesus said that you would know them by their fruit, by the love that they have to one another, I see this greatly lacking within Calvinistic circles. For the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; And the question is; Did Calvin have these qualities? Well I can speak of one time he seemed slightly lacking......
......Calvin’s part in having Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553, for his beliefs. The reformers at Geneva declared for punishment, with Calvin being ESPECIALLY urgent about it, that Servetus should be put to death. Calvin had been saying for some time, that if Servetus ever came to Geneva, he would DO HIS BEST to prevent him from leaving alive. Since Servetus did come to Geneva, a place where others had found safety from the persecution of the RCC, Cavin made sure that he was arrested, and tried for his beliefs. Hence he was BURNED AT THE STAKE FOR HIS OPINIONS. Servetus was highly educated in both Hebrew and Greek and was a physician. He is RENOWNED in medical circles for being the first to discover of the pulmonary circulation of the blood.
I am sure Calvin thought he was “doing God a favor”, when he was instrumental in having Servetus put to death. Interestingly enough Calvin had a nickname among his fellow students based in the case of a Greek noun he was called “THE ACCUSATIVE CASE. This he received because he was a SEVERE CRITIC OF THE FAULTS OF HIS FELLOW STUDENTS , this fact is stated by his most ardent admirer and biographer Theodore Beza. Calvin also encouraged the BURNING of witches.
The fact is that Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine, and took most of his ideas on predestination from him. By the decree decretum horribile, a Latin term representing predestination, which appoints to everyman eternal happiness or woe, he takes away God’s ability to choose as well as man’s. This man was NO disciple of Christ, he showed no true fruit of the spirit, and even admitted himself, that he had an intensely HOT TEMPER, which he called his “wild beast”.
His “temper” is something he never overcame, because like all those wrapped up in the belief of predestination, they have a tendency to walk like natural men, who often say, when confronted about a fault in character, “OH THAT’S JUST THE WAY I AM.” The Word of God confronts us with what we are, and gives us a choice of what we can be.
You also stated:
**Philosophy is the governing factor on this site not theology, at least that is what I have discovered, sad as it is.** But these verses do deserve explaining, especially why you presuppose that man has this capable will before the Lord so chooses to change Him.
If this be the case, if people think that there is a great difference between philosophy and theology, then I would suggest the reading of Bertrand Russells book, The Wisdom of the West, or ANY encyclopedia on these subjects. For you will find that in essence philosophy and theology are pretty much the SAME thing. Theology is mearly the adopted form of the religious aspect of Greek philosophy, something which Paul warned about in Col.2:8, and which warning no one ever took heed to. By the time you get done reading someone’s systematic treaty on theology, you could have read the Bible thousands of times over. By the time you get done filling your head with their words, the words of scripture are tainted, and the living voice of the Holy Spirit within you is gagged.
The verses I used were simply and example of how we do have a “will”, and that will can be changed according to our own will, through various kinds of external stimulation. For instance I may will to go and sleep with the neighbors wife, and then I read where Jesus said, that if I even look on a woman to lust after her, I have committed adultery with her already in my heart. Then I read, that adulterers have NO INHERITANCE in the kingdom of God. Hence I can change my will, if I either want to please God, or at the least don’t want to go to hell. God shows us what the choices are and what the consiquences to those choices are, so that we can then choose to make either the wrong or right choice, and receive the consiquences thereof. See what I mean “external stimulation”, that becomes internal, as the knowledge goes into my head. OR I can simply choose to ignore the Word, and follow my own will and lusts on the matter, which are again caused by the external stimulation of what I happen to be looking at. Desires can be changed, when the right information and knowledge are introduced. But if you just tell men that they are going to be the way they are going to be and they can’t do anything about it, then they will never have the opportunity to change their own destiny, since they will pretty much just be led by the flesh.
You stated: . it's not like I can make you believe or force you to, only the work of the Holy Ghost can.
I would say look at Heb. 3:7-
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, today IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrth, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened though the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end;
How can you read that and not see that you are the one who desides as to weather or not you will harden your own heart or not? This is all a gernal warning, giving each man a choice to make.
I see no where, where it states the work of the Holy Ghost is to FORCE you to do anything. To guide you into a knowledge of the truth, yes. But ONLY if you allow him to, and even then it is still up to you to deside to follow that truth. Again, I don't see much "fruit", coming out of those who hold strictly to Cavinist doctrines, especially Calvin himself.
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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| Posted 3/16/2004 2:27 PM (GMT -6) | | larris for your first part of your response, i don't have time to read over the second, be careful who you condem. make sure that long after you're dead people aren't looking at your fruits and saying, "Wow these americans had lots of money and yet they perverted their blessings spoiling it upon themselves neglecting the truly needful church," or other such things. to hold a man accountable in such a way is good; but as a Christian brother, be careful! To assume that Calvin thought he was doing God a favor and charging him with that is judging the inclinations of Calvin's heart. I'm sure that if any of us were in his position we woudl have killed Michael too. He had many warrants out in many contries as far as I know. and remember, on his death bed Calvin admitted "I'm a dirty rotten sinner". Our theology is not based off of a man and his ideas, but off of the Word of God as we see it. I could really care less if calvin was right, if spurgeon was right, if edwards was right; what matters is what does the bible say about such things.
more to come on the last half, but i got midterms to study for.
blessings brother,
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
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| Posted 3/17/2004 2:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Warrants for what? They were warrants for HAVING A DIFFFERENT OPINION OF WHAT THE BIBLE TAUGHT. The SAME type of warrants Calvin had on himself in countries like FRANCE and ITALY, or what might be considdered CATHOLIC run countries. The whole reason Calvin wound up in Geneva was to escape the warrants he had on his own head.
You shall know them by their fruit, and we are to look at men who claim to preach Christ and judge their behavior, as to weather or not it's actually godly, on a consistent basis. Paul stated that a TRUE SERVANT of the Lord must not STIVE...fight with others, but be GENTLE unto ALL men, patient, apt to teach in MEEKNESS, instructing them who oppose THEMSELVES. If Michael Servetus was in error, he was not opposing Christ, he was opposing himself. NO WHERE are we ever instructed to have a hand in putting someone to death for his beliefs. I believe the Jews did that to Jesus for his beliefs, so where dose that put Calvin? And it is a fact that he also had a hand in putting what some considdered witches in that time. Of which history has proved that 9 times out of 10, those they burned at the stake for witchcraft, weren't witches at all. But even IF they were, as those in Christ, we are not under the legalities of the Old Testament, to not suffer a witch to live.
So what is it? Do people who follow hard line predestination, just think that kind of stuff is A-OK? And how hypocritical anyway! For on the one hand they teach that in this new gospel of Christ, the Old Testament really dose not apply, while at the same time picking and choosing some of the more sever aspects of that law to apply in their own laws.
Also, ALL the REFORMERS had warrants on them. And to say there were warrants, without clarifying what those warrants were for, is like trying to back door the issue and make it look like someone like Michael Servetus was some sort of REAL criminal, and deserved what he got. Now if I'm to be careful about the way I talk about Calvin, maybe you should be careful about the way you talk about Michael Servetus. Especially if it's an attitude of, "Well if Calvin did it, he must have had a good reason." Are you also that cold hearted, that you would defend men who put others to death for their differences of belief, just because you are a believer and admirer of Calvin?
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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