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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 3/17/2004 9:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | Larris have you ever heard of the cliche, "Practice what you preach"? Before you damn someone to hell for their sins, make sure you are not doing likewise. I believe the Bible also says, "thou shalt not judge" and "anyone who hates his brother has murdered him in their heart" and "be at peace with all men as much as possible" and "love your enemy as yourself". And you say that we judge people by the fruits they bear on a consistant manner. When was the last time you consistantly obeyed Christ and bore lots and lots of good fruit for Him? When was the last time you loved God with all your heart, soul, and mind? And your neighbor as yourself? When was the last time sin could not be found on your lips, or a lie in your heart. When was the last time you placed other's worth ahead of your own? Self-examination in the last week will show you that you have hated, belittled, despised, mocked, and heaven knows what else the Lord your God. and yet do we stand here and condemn you for your speech pouring forth so much wrath and hatred towards a man who died hundereds of years ago? Will the Church in Africa some day look at you and say, "Damn him! He didn't give enough money to the church. He didn't help enough." are the people down the lines going to be saying of you, "Why didn't he come liberate us? Why didn't he use his freedom to benefit us?" I hate the Christian line of don't judge lest you be judged, but this is one a time where it is necesary to bring it up. Are you one that has obtained some amount of godliness that you can condemn others, that you can look down on people, that you can say, "Thank God i'm not like one of those tax collectors?" or are you one who comes before God with nothing but your sins saying, "Have mercy on me oh God a sinner!" I think we both know the answer to that. Calvin was a dirty rotten sinner! a horrible man! a horrible man, i do not condone the murders that he partook in. But calvin also did wonderful things. I don't defend calvin because I like his theology, i defend calvin because there comes a time when we need to stop being so prideful and arrogant, so hating towards sinning brothers, and step off of our high pedestal and plead for the mercy of the Almighty! Learn from the mistakes of Calvin and the like. Take their sins upon yourself, as though you comitted them, and help yourself hate sin more and more. You want to talk about hypocrisy; i think all hypocrisy should be viewed from within first. And then when you find no fault within yourself, feel free to cast the first stone! are you that cold hearted that you have forgotten how Christ treated the sinners? Come on Larris, don't fall into such a mindset that you have Christianity figured out, that you have the life of faith perfect. WE ARE ALL SINNERS IN NEED OF GOD'S GREAT GREAT MERCY AND GRACE! Let that be the starting point and the end point of all our conversations.
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/18/2004 1:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Borg,
Let's be clear. I do not condemn "Calvin." I do believe that ordering someone to be burned at the stake over a petty theological issue or even a major theological disagreement is murder. But with you I will leave that judgment to God and His revealed decrees..."Murderer's shall not enter the Kingdom the Heaven, etc."
Now, what I do condemn is Calvin's theology that turns God into the same type of tyrrant that he was. Calvin is yet another unfortunate example of how theology is so often driven by personality and not by sound exegesis of the WHOLE Word of God.
We also must be careful not to defer to someone's theology because of "the wonderful things they have done." There are many well meaning people out there doing wonderful things whose theolgy is nonsensical--I will withold examples to avoid distracting from my point.
Now, as long as these folks are not smearing the character of God and are more interested in building the Kingdom of God than their systematic dogma we can work together and harmonize our apparently discordant notes.
Food for thought.
To God alone be the glory,
John | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 3/21/2004 3:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Lakia,
I read your page on the body count, thankyou for that information. Your bio says you live in Western Sahara. Is that like in Arabia, or there abouts? Or is there a Western Sahara Montana or something?
I am so glad I found this message board. It seems that there are some people here who really have a down to earth view of the scriptures. Opps maybe that is the wrong saying to use, but how about common sense view. For instance in the oppining message to this thread, someone asked about "conditional" salvation, and no one seemed to really FREAK OUT at the words themselves. It's nice when people can discuss issues and differences in the way they see things, without getting totally possessed.
John, that was a very good point about murderers having no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Even though we know Paul was a murderer, but obtained mercy because he did it ignorantly in unbelief, for under OT Law, he had every right to do what he did. However he found out he was working against the real Christ, and repented. Men today have that same word of Christ, which they can read at will, and yet choose to ignore most of it, in favor of theories on words, like predestination and foreknowledge.
The fact is that many of us have things in our own personal natures, that it is very hard to change. NOT impossible, but sins that are so intertwined with our personalities, that it takes a LOT of the Word of Christ, and a lot of practice, in repentance and endavoring to do the Word, to CHANGE.
In EFFECT, its like going through a heart transplant opperation. And I have found that men will go to just about any lengths to come up with diverse doctrines to AVOID that process. I believe that Christ delivered us from our sins, by first forgiving us for them, then putting us in a relationship with the Father, and THEN giving us the knowledge on how to overcome them, and become (not just in name only) truly new creatures.
I have found in my own life that the Word of God, rightly divided, and accurately understood, seems to empower me, to CHANGE. However I must choose to read it, understand it, and endeavor to APPLY it in what ever situation is needed, on a daily basis. Since there are things in my own personality that are contrary to what the scriptures say to do, especially in dealing with people, then sometimes this is very hard to do. But it can be done, and when it is done, when I actually perform it, it yeilds the peaceable fruit of righteousness.
It seems that in men like Calvin, their greatest sins lay in their attitudes towards others who did not exactly think the same way they did. And also if anyone seemed to be against them docternally, they developed a great antagonism towards that person. It's really too bad, that there was not someone there to teach them the truth from the get go. But the fact is that they had The Word, they had the holy spirit, and so in my opinion, as one who shall also be judged by the law of liberty, they shall receive from God what they dealt out to others, (JUST AS I SHALL, and I keep this in mind.)
Mercy rejoices against judgement, and whatever you put out shall be measured to you again. If in my life I have not shown mercy to others, God will in the end not show mercy to me. Now I am not in a situation like Calvin, but everyday I run into people who are contrary to me, who I have the opportunity to love, forgive and show mercy to.
I don't hate or judge Calvin, but Calvin's actions. Thank God, I am not in the same position of power that Calvin was, for I have seen in my own personality, those same characteristics of anger and bitterness and wrath. And in such a state, who knows what one will do if one had the power.
However to recognize these characteristics in ones self, is half way towards the battle of winning the mastery over them. Many men have not seen these things as against Christ, and then mortified them, chooseing instead to yeild the fruit of the spirit towards those who they think are their enemies. For if we would judge ourselves FIRST, and then bring our attitudes and behaviors into obedience to his Word, even though we may have felt like killing someone, we shall not be judged for that feeling or thought. And why? Because we renewed our minds to the truth, and brought our body into subjection of the Word.
Now there is as good a verse of scripture, showing that we do have personal power and choice over sin, as any I've seen.
1 Cor. 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly: so fight I, not as one that beats the air: But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
If God just makes you the way you are, and you have no say in the matter, then WHY even say such a thing?
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/21/2004 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/21/2004 4:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
[
If God's love is unconditional, why is salvation conditional?
Doc: I didnt' read this thread, so take this for what its worth. My response would be that salvation is not JUST BEING loved but God, but PARTICIPATING in the love of the triune God. And this, by definition, requires that you CHOOSE it.
Greg
Second that motion. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/26/2004 8:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
[
If God's love is unconditional, why is salvation conditional?
Doc: I didnt' read this thread, so take this for what its worth. My response would be that salvation is not JUST BEING loved but God, but PARTICIPATING in the love of the triune God. And this, by definition, requires that you CHOOSE it.
Greg
Hello Everyone,
I was wondering where to post my thoughts after seeing The Passion tonight. It just arrived today and a group of us went tonight. I guess Love/Salvation is a fitting place. Don't mean to hijack a thread. I'm sure you've all had the opportunity to see it now for weeks.
I had prepared myself mentally for the graphic nature of the film - or so I thought. What I wasn't prepared for was the way Christ was tortured. It made me realize that that wasn't the Father. I believe that was the enemy. When we talk about God taking a risk in giving us free will - I guess I realized tonight what that risk looked like. The film did a good job of depicting the enemy "prowling about" and I was amazed at how much evil comes looking like something harmless but quickly reveals its "true colours."
For parts of the film I sat, head bowed, eyes closed and I cried. Nothing could have prepared me for the torture that my Lord endured. Gibson did a good job as portraying Him as a "lamb led to slaughter" for our behalf. He was a lamb, but in dying became the Lion of Judah. Amazing contrast between meekness and the warrior who died for us.
I think it will continue to sink in. One thought that I have had is that the enemy wanted Jesus dead before the cross. But Jesus had to lay down His own life. No one was going to take it from Him sooner or in any other way then at the cross. This is where I see God intervening and perhaps limiting free will to accomplish His overarching purposes. What do you think?
The film is powerful. I have no doubt that it will transform lives. How ironic that the film showing right next to it was Dawn of the Waking Dead. It comes down to a battleground where we have to choose Christ or reject Him and by not choosing - choose death. The enemy was evident throughout, lurking, weaving in and out among the people who seemed to have gone temporarily insane. Evil is not rational. It is the exact opposite of the fruit of the spirit.
I expected a line up here but the theatre was barely three quarters full. I was surprised. But I have no doubt that this will have a tremendous impact on eternity. There were some creative liberties taken for sure, but the cross of Christ was clearly and compellingly depicted. It was a clear Gospel message. Easter will never be the same for me. I loved Him before. Now I have a better understanding of the price that He paid, the cost of that risk that the Father took in giving us free will.
Another thought that I had was that the torture was the enemies doing, not part of the price that Jesus was intended to pay. The cross was where He was headed. I believe that the torture that He endured (prophecied) was the enemy's attempt at preventing Him from getting there. Obviously He was kept supernaturally and His suffering was beyond our comprehension.
I'm sure it will sink in more over the weekend and tomorrow I'm in an all day Evangelism Explosion course. Good timing. I've taken it before but it will encourage us all to be ready to give a reason for the hope that is within us.
God bless you all,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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