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Jim Mottl
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 2/19/2004 12:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | If God's love is unconditional, why is salvation conditional?
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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kingsaint
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80
| Posted 2/19/2004 3:37 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
I agree (maybe not on the hell part). It is true that God first loved us, while we were yet sinners, but that does not mean that unilateral action is the epitome of love. That we focus on selflessness is perhaps understandable since being selfless can be hard. (We hammer home that agape is not like the selfish eros.) However, I like to think the best context for love is relationship, and the most healthy relationship is reciprocal (God is love, God is trinity).
This explains why covenants are so important in the Bible. Covenants define (reciprocal) relationships. Loving kindness (hesed) defines God's covenantal loyalty. Sure, there are unilateral covenants (grants), such as Abraham, but are they made in contexts which presuppose relationship? Even in the case of Abraham, we do find reciprocal language (Gen. 17:1-2, 18:19). God does expect things from God's beloved. It is interesting that when Moses interceded for Israel (Ex. 32), he did not appeal to God's love for Israel (at least not those living) but seemingly to God's self-love: what would the Egyptians say?
To be sure, all relationships need unilateral actions (grace); tit-for-tat can be unhealthy all the time. But reciprocity is the meat and potatoes of relationships. We need to choose to enter into relationship with God through Christ; we need to repent. This is why Jesus' cross does not entail universal salvation.
Anyway that is my stab at it.
"Nobody who omits doing good works nowadays does so in order not to be tempted to become self-righteous; he omits it because it is easier."
--Philip Merlan, "Toward the Understanding of Kierkegaard" | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/19/2004 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | | God's love is not unconditional. It is never described that way in scripture. Scripture describes it as unfailing. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 2/19/2004 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | With respect to John 3:16, I do find that God's motive in sending his Son was the universal love which He had for all mankind. In that sense, God's love is unconditional; i.e., it is FOR everyone in the sense that He truly DESIRES to have a covenant relationship with all people (2 Pet. 3:9).
However, as Scripture speaks often of God hating the wicked, etc., it seems to me that God stops loving people at a certain point (known only to him, of course). Those who have blasphemed the Holy Spirit would fall into this category, like all who are completely hardened in a sinful, rebellious mindset.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/20/2004 3:11 AM (GMT -6) | | As I've noted in past conversations, we really need to define what we mean by "love" when we say that God loves us. It isn't the emotional status that drives God's love, it is the character-based attribute of God that He will never be unfair, unjust, or self-centered and selfish. He'll always do the right thing. So love in this context is unconditional; it is based on nothing but His own character.
Does God have emotions? Well, as I see His ways in Scripture, yes, but that's not what the Biblical writers refer to when they infer or imply that God loves us, at least not when they're refering to the bigger picture: "For God so loved the world ...." He may have emotions about it, but those emotions neither rule nor fuel this bigger concept of love.
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 2/20/2004 3:24 PM (GMT -6) | | I hear in church all the time that God's love toward us is unconditional, in that, there is nothing that we can do to earn the love of God. It is just ascribed to us because He created us. As we are called in scripture to love, so God then loves. It is not determined by what I do, whether good or bad, but because I exist, because I have a soul, I am loved by God. That is what I think of when I think of unconditional love.
Now salvation on the other hand is different as I see it. There is a condition that has to be met in order to be saved. Jesus Christ is the condition, and we have to believe(not mental assent), or choose(I don't really think we have a choice, I think it's all God)Jesus Christ to have eternal life. So that means that someone who does not believe in Jesus Christ will not have eternal life even though God loves thatm as I described above. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/20/2004 4:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Jim_Mottl
I hear in church all the time that God's love toward us is unconditional, in that, there is nothing that we can do to earn the love of God. It is just ascribed to us because He created us. As we are called in scripture to love, so God then loves. It is not determined by what I do, whether good or bad, but because I exist, because I have a soul, I am loved by God. That is what I think of when I think of unconditional love.
Now salvation on the other hand is different as I see it. There is a condition that has to be met in order to be saved. Jesus Christ is the condition, and we have to believe(not mental assent), or choose(I don't really think we have a choice, I think it's all God)Jesus Christ to have eternal life. So that means that someone who does not believe in Jesus Christ will not have eternal life even though God loves thatm as I described above.
Jim, I think unconditional love is a very sensitive way of defining God’s love. God's gift of salvation must be accepted, it is our choice to parish by rejecting his gift. God still unconditionally loves us. Its true that God unconditionally loves us, but we have to make sacrifices like the Father did by sacrificing his Son and like the Son did by sacrificing his life. I think we might be better off focusing on sacrificial love. By sacrificing our self and in turn dying to our old sinful self and serving God and others. And let’s not ever forget love is forgiveness. We need all three, unconditional love, sacrificial love and forgiving love. Jesus loves us unconditionally; He sacrificed for us on the cross in order that we can accept his forgiveness.
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 2/21/2004 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Where does it ever say that God's love is earned?
Borg
Rom 8:38
Jim:
I don't think it does. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 1:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Jim If God's love is unconditional, why is salvation conditional?
Tom: For what it's worth, I don't think God's loving us unconditionally (which he does) and our salvation (i.e., our exerience/enjoyment/participation of God's love) are the same thing. God can and does love us unconditionally. But our experience of it and reciprocating it are conditioned partly upon our choice to receive and reciprocate. That doesn't mean we earn it. It means our participation in it makes the relationship mutually personal, which is the context in which God's love becomes our salvation.
To me it's the same with my kids. I love them unconditionally. I did the day they were born, before they knew I was there and without any response on their part. But their knowing my love, their understanding and embracing my love, are partly conditioned upon their choice to embrace it. As much as I will always love them, I can't determine their choice to participate in the relationship. And it would be a gross mistake to claim that since my kids have a choice in whether or not they experience and enjoy my love for them (i.e., whether they reciprocate my love and relate personally = salvation) that they have somehow "earned" my love. On the contrary, they don't earn it. But they do choose to experience it and can refuse it.
I think it's destructive to suggest that God's loving us is conditional. I'm not denying that the day will come when God's love for the wicked will cease. This is an eschatological deal and quite different than saying "God's love for us is conditional." To say his love is conditional means he loves us when we're good or when we perform rightly, when we fulfill the conditions, and he doesn't love us when we don't perform rightly. It means we earn his love, plain and simple. I can't think of a belief more destructive to personal relationships that this.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/24/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Love is given unconditionally at the cross but a relationship where love can be actualized is conditional upon the response of the believer.
Amen Jo-Anne, beautifully said. | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/24/2004 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | So no longer is God's love or grace "good enough" but purely brings about a sort of means to salvation. Salvation= God's Love (Grace)+ Our response? Hmmmmm. John Owen in "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" rises up strongly against this. For Christ's death washed away all sins. If unbelief is a sin, which it is, for we are commanded to believe i.e. Acts 2, then even those who don't "accept" Christ, their unbelief and "non-acceptance" should be forgiven. Under these facts there are three things by which the death of Christ could then accomplish.
1)Christ died for ALL people, for ALL sins (including unbelief), hence we have universalism.
2) Christ died for SOME people, for ALL sins. And then He soveriegnly overcomes their unbelief because Christ died a "definite redemption" death. This would be Christ dying for the elect.
3) Christ died for ALL people, for SOMES sins, which would result in the whole world being damned for even if we sin against the law once, we have become breakers of the whole law, and the wages of sin (singular) is death.
So we have a problem, unless we are willing to accept universalism, which I would think any typical evangelical would not, I should hope. Christ's death was Salvation, Christ's death was the end, not the means.
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/24/2004 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Christ died for all potentially, but it effects only those who trust in him. Not at all sure where the universalism comes in.
God's grace is the ground of all salvation, but God has deemed faith the means by which it is effected. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/24/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | borg-
Pick up Robert Shanks' two books. Done deal.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/24/2004 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Amen! Tom. Shank's books are the BOMB!
Also Klein's (if you can get it) The New Chosen People. | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/24/2004 10:26 AM (GMT -6) | | The chances of me picking up those books are slim, because I don't have any money right now and to be honest, my list of books that i want are quite large and those would be placed near the bottom, probably. So could you sum up the arguments for me so that I know where you are coming from? As far as I know, no theologian has been able to successfully and fully reject Owen's idea, I know C.S. Lewis attempted, but I'm curious what this guy (shank?) has to say. Thanks
blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 2/24/2004 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Borg & All,
I'm enjoying this thread and am looking forward to seeing how it all unravels. These are my thoughts.
(BORG) [Salvation= God's Love (Grace)+ Our response?]
(JO-ANNE) That about sums it up. God's love for us is not conditional upon our response though. He loves, no matter if we love or not..."While we were yet sinners..." but our ability to experience that love, to enter into a fellowship of the community of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, depends on our response. And of course, all that flows from that resulting life of faith. But as scripture plainly states, He loved us first. Then it's up to us. Salvation is a gift of grace, but as any gift, it has to be unwrapped to be of any blessing. Salvation needs to be "unwrapped" and it is when we accept it. It is that simple. He didn't make it difficult or complicated.
(BORG)[Christ died for ALL people, for ALL sins (including unbelief), hence we have universalism.]
(JO-ANNE) Unbelief is a state of being before believing and yes He died for ALL...this is the good news of the Gospel. Where does universalism come in?
(BORG) [Christ died for SOME people, for ALL sins. And then He soveriegnly overcomes their unbelief because Christ died a "definite redemption" death. This would be Christ dying for the elect]
.
(JO-ANNE) I heard a prayer once that expresses my thoughts about this, "God please save the elect, then elect some more." That is what He does. All (whosoever will) may feast at the banqueting table with Him. All ya gotta do is accept the invite!
(BORG) [Christ died for ALL people, for SOMES sins, which would result in the whole world being damned for even if we sin against the law once, we have become breakers of the whole law, and the wages of sin (singular) is death.]
(JO-ANNE) This would be a "mousetrap" with salvation being the "divine cheese" and this definitely bears no resemblance to the God of the Bible.
(BORG)[So we have a problem, unless we are willing to accept universalism, which I would think any typical evangelical would not, I should hope. Christ's death was Salvation, Christ's death was the end, not the means.]
(JO-ANNE) Christ's death when we believe it and receive Him is the beginning of a divine romance. Have you read John Eldredge's Sacred Romance? It's a wonderful book (speaking of books)
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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borg
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 2/24/2004 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | Didn't make salvation complicated? If left to myself I would damn myself, for there is no good will in me that would ever choose to follow God. The only way I'm saved is by God giving me the effectual call and then coming with His grace and allowing me to accept that gift, I had no other choice.
Universalism comes into play in that Christ died even for unbelief. Unbelief is a sin, and if Christ really did die for all sins, for all people, EVERYONE would be saved, for there wouldn't be a single sin to hold against them, even their denying God. If God covered ALL sins for ALL people, everyone is saved.
And as the parable says, "Many are called and few are chosen." Christ may offer salvation to all, but He does not equip all with the grace to make the right decsion.
A mouse trap salvation? Well then thank God His trap snapped my neck. Don't think of it in such a negative light. Rather it's God's effectual call on the elects heart, and His grace upon the elect, that make them willing to come to Him. It's more of an analogy where we're locked up in a zoo and God calls out of the zoo and shows us the outside and the glory of it, so that we don't want anything else and He sets us free. But God doesn't effectually call all people out of the zoo.
Sorry not an Eldridge fan, and i won't read anymore of his books.
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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