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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/21/2008 1:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
D: Wait a sec, homie. I told you before that I was willing to grant your position (for the sake of discussion) And I told you under what conditions...reposting...
Tom: I could say that to grant a person’s position “for the sake of argument” is done for the sake of argument apart from conditions. But less see what deez condishunz be…
D: I will grant human hypostases the possibility of their own “person” (other than Jesus obviously), eternally and interpersonally distinct from the person of God the Logos...I will grant the human “persons” know God the Logos “face-to-face” as ETERNAL interpersonal difference.
I'll do this...IF...
Tom: If…if…yes?
D: IF…1) you'll agree with me that when those human “persons” live self-consciously and epicletically as “Christ's further Incarnation”, there is indeed the possibility of a mystical transformation (again, EPICLETICALLY) such that that human “person” in perichoretic indwelling of Father's Spirit actually “becomes” Christ: mind (Mind of Christ), body (Body and Blood of Christ), and spirit (Spirit of Christ). Our derivative “human personhood” then takes on the bi-polar assymetrical relationality that we see in the divine “human personhood” of Christ...such that we ARE Christ as we are IN Christ.
And IF...2) you'll agree with me that a human “person” can FREELY and ETERNALLY CHOOSE to “become” Christ in such a manner, so that their ETERNAL identity then says “I, not I, but God the Father!”
Do you grant these two things as possibilities within your ideas?
Tom: I remember this now. I think I commented on it back then too.
D, this ‘condition’ amounts to the falsification of the view (mine) you’re granting for the sake of argument.
Tom says: “Identities X and Y never collapse into a single identity.”
D says: “Identities X and Y eventually collapse into a single identity.”
You want to know if there’s room in my view for the possibility of your view? How can I do that? How can you ask it? But it's not an incompatability on my end only. It's from your end too.
I grant the possibility that I could be wrong and you could be right (or I could be right and you wrong). I’ll grant the possibility that we both could be wrong. But I can’t grant that my view (as I understand it) is compatible with your view (as I understand it). I shouldn’t think you would either.
Tom
Post Edited (HumanHypostasis) : 1/21/2008 4:45:36 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/21/2008 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Awwww, now...
Tom:
You want to know if there’s room in my view for the possibility of your view? How can I do that? How can you ask it? But it's not an incompatability on my end only. It's from your end too.
Tom, this is really simple. For real. #1 deals with the reality of EPIKLESIS that's already acknowledged as ecclesial reality for EO and others. #2 deals with the freely chosen ability to identify oneself from a BIBLICAL perspective taken by Jesus: "I, not I, but the Father"
How are these not allowable within your system? As I see it, as long as there is a human "person" who as an eternally distinct person from God the Logos freely chooses these things, they we have all the synergistic working necessary: the human will always submits to the divine will. I don't see how you can disallow the reality of epiklesis OR the reality of the "I, not I, but the Father" coming from the "Abba, Father" sensibility that Jesus keeps referring to. All I'm saying is that as human "persons" experience these realities and the ramifications stand as they do.
Are you trying to say that your view doesn't allow for the full ramifications of "epiklesis" and the "I, not I, but the Father" self-understanding? Please show me how metaphysically please?
I really believe this works...
So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them... Post Edited (Imago Dei) : 1/21/2008 3:44:29 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/21/2008 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | |
HumanHypostasis said...
D says: “Identities X and Y eventually collapse into a single identity.”
But that takes away mystery. Concretely "single" identity? The mystery--even now--of being Christ's Body is that while we are one we are many members.
What on earth (meaning: in scripture) would want you to collapse that mystery?
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/21/2008 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | |
Imago Dei said...
Awwww, now...
Tom:
You want to know if there’s room in my view for the possibility of your view? How can I do that? How can you ask it? But it's not an incompatability on my end only. It's from your end too.
Tom, this is really simple. For real. #1 deals with the reality of EPIKLESIS that's already acknowledged as ecclesial reality for EO and others. #2 deals with the freely chosen ability to identify oneself from a BIBLICAL perspective taken by Jesus: "I, not I, but the Father"
How are these not allowable within your system? As I see it, as long as there is a human "person" who as an eternally distinct person from God the Logos freely chooses these things, they we have all the synergistic working necessary: the human will always submits to the divine will. I don't see how you can disallow the reality of epiklesis OR the reality of the "I, not I, but the Father" coming from the "Abba, Father" sensibility that Jesus keeps referring to. All I'm saying is that as human "persons" experience these realities and the ramifications stand as they do.
Are you trying to say that your view doesn't allow for the full ramifications of "epiklesis" and the "I, not I, but the Father" self-understanding? Please show me how metaphysically please?
I really believe this works...
We were talking over chilli at luNch yesterday...
Christ in the garden, at the same time, willed with his human will not to die AND willed with his human will to do the will of the God-head. That did not collapse.
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 1/21/2008 8:29:41 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/21/2008 9:11 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/31/2008 4:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Tom says: “Identities X and Y never collapse into a single identity.”
D says: “Identities X and Y eventually collapse into a single identity.”
Hey. Someone give me the way to say this...
At the Consummation, Creation (through humanity) will eternally be Christ's "Body" and "Wife" in the Father's Spirit. Our union with Christ will be deeper than any type of human "knowing" (meaning the biblical sense of knowledge.) Divine Liturgy to the Nth power. From here...
"In the Kingdom of Christ to come, there will no longer be need for receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, for all who have been vouchsafed will be in closest converse with Him and will enjoy the pre-eternal light of the Life originating Trinity, experiencing that blessedness which no tongue can express, and which is incomprehensible to our feeble mind. For this reason after partaking of the Holy Mysteries at Liturgy, in the altar is always pronounced the prayer which we sing on Paschal days: "O Christ, Thou great and most sacred Pascha! O Wisdom, Word and Power of God! Grant us to partake of Thee more fully in the unwaning day of Thy kingdom" (Pachal Canon, 9th Ode). "
We will ever be Two, but One.
Marriage is an analogy of this. Christ's Hypostatic Union [assymetrical relational unity of divine nature and human nature] is the reality that undergirds this. And the "assymetrical" language isn't Loder. It's Meyendorff...
...what George Florovsky once called an "asymmetrical union" of God and man in Christ: while the hypostatic source of life — the goal and pattern — remains divine, man is not diminished or swallowed by the union; he becomes again fully human. This notion is also expressed in the Eucharistic sacrifice, a unique act in which no single action of Christ’s is represented in isolation or reduced to purely human concepts, such as an "exchange," or a "satisfaction." Christ as the Synodikon proclaims every year on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, "reconciled us to Himself by means of the whole mystery of the economy, by Himself, and in Himself and reconciled us also to His God and Father and of course to the most holy and life-giving Spirit."
and...
"There is no absolute symmetry between divinity and humanity in Christ because the unique hypostasis is only divine and because the human will follows the divine. It was precisely a "symmetrical" Christology, which was rejected as Nestorian in Ephesus (431). This "asymmetry" of Orthodox Christology reflects an idea which Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria stressed so strongly: only God can save while humanity can only cooperate with the saving acts and will of God. However, as we have emphasized earlier, in the patristic concept of man, "theocentricity" is a natural character of humanity; thus asymmetry does not prevent the fact that Christ is fully and "actively" man."
Then there's Endokimov. (Woman and the Salvation of the World, Page 96)
It is not difficult to see that the mystical state transcends one's creaturely condition, through our participation in the divine. God is nearer to man that man is to himself; and life in the divine is more supernaturally natural to man than life simply in the human. In one who is baptized, Christ is an inner reality. This is the antinomian experience of nothingness and or absolute being. Although the gap of the ontological abyss is not eliminated, Being overcomes it by His presence: "By nature, I am a man, and god by grace." A being, coming from nothingness, lives the conditions of the divine life. God transcends His own transcendence: "He appears suddenly, and without confusion, becomes one with me...My hands are those of an unhappy creature; I move my hand, and my hand is all Christ" (St. Symeon the New Theologian). Through such a descent--the parousia of Christ in the soul--the soul is formed in His image: "There is God, there are the angels, there life and the kingdom, there light, there the treasures of grace, there are all things." (St. Macarius) This is what John of Damascus calls "the return of what is contrary to nature to what is proper to it."
---------------------------------
Now, how can I say this so that people don't take me to "collapse" the persons of the One Church into the Only-Begotten Person, Christ...while still asserting, with Zizioulas, Ware, Endokimov, Nesteruk, and others, that the One Church, in and through the Spirit, "becomes Christ" to the Father's glory.
Help me out, Bruce.
And Happy New Year's Eve... 
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/31/2008 6:27:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/31/2008 5:42 AM (GMT -6) | | "I have the right to do anything," you say—but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"—but I will not be mastered by anything. You say, "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both." The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:12-17
The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come!" And let those who hear say, "Come!" Let those who are thirsty come; and let all who wish take the free gift of the water of life. Revelation 22:17
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