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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > what is the biblical basis for the son being eternally begotten by the father? | Forum Quick Jump
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|  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 1/25/2008 11:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | | PoW:
Keith, I can think of three or four different manners in which there can be "subordination" among various things or people. So I want to ask you, sincerely, as far as you and the Trinity go, what do YOU mean by subordination?
Starkman: How in the world are you going to suggest a subordination of any kind among three absolutely equally mind/will persons? There can be no subordination in the Godhead if we're going to hold that All three persons of the Godhead each has His own mind, will, etc. This is none other than polytheism. Thus, subordination, whatever it is, suggests something that must be going on, something with regard to God's "makeup," if you will, that eliminates polytheism within the Godhead.
Using the word "Hierarchy" doesn't get us around the matter any better; it implies subordination or subjection of some sort: I Cor 15:27-28
For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. But when it says “everything” has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all. (NET Bible)
This "subjection" (subordination) doesn't imply a less than; it implies a position. This, I contend, comes about by virture of how God exists as God; hence, the statement "that God may be all in all" in I Cor 15. The Word/Son, therefore, exists in the Godhead in a position of subjection, subordination as part of the heirarchy that is part of what God is.
In view of I Cor 15, it's not hard to understand how the Word on earth as the Son was given the authority to do what He did (with respect to you having quoted John 5:22-24). Ultimately, however, something will take place, when death is conquered, that will entail the back-to-business position of Christ in (loving) subjection to the Father.
I'm simply contending that I Cor 15 would be nonsense if all thre persons of the Godhead each has His own will/mind, etc. That's polytheism. What's going on in I Cor 15, however, suggests that the makeup of the Godhead has the Father "in charge," so to speak, because He truly is in charge (for lack of a better word). This is how the Godhead exists.
PoW: Keith, I assure you that *I*, myself, was begotten prior to my own birth!
Starkman: You can argue that you were begotten prior to birth, but you'd have to go some to demonstrate how you were begotten before conception!
To mean by "begotten" that the Son was (eternally) brought forth by the Father has been discussed much here. My opinion: that theology isn't evident or implied in its use, particularly in John 1 (that's not even what the word "begotten" has to mean). Second, that theology doesn't have to be implied in order to maintain Christ as fully God and fully man. I have, however, acknowledged that the eternally begotten concept does contribute toward the idea of subordination of the Son to the Father in a manner that eliminates polytheism, but I don't see "eternally begotten" taught in Scripture.
With regard to...
Starkman said...
Three separate persons with three separate wills and minds are three separate persons! But if there's subordination, that subordination may include (would have to include, I would think) something in the order of a hierarchy that makes way for eliminating polytheism; three absolutely equal persons in all aspects.
(PoW:) Keith, I'm not a great reader. Sincerely, on first reading you looked like you were contradicting yourself within this one sentence.
Starkman: Yes, I can see how the way I said what I said could look contradictive, but the "three absolutely equal persons in all aspects" following the semicolon was meant to convey polytheism, not what I think subordination is. In other words, subordination eliminates the polytheistical--three absolutely equal persons in all aspects--problem.
Finally, I wasn't at all meaning to stereotype you, Bruce. Not at all. I was simply messing with you.
Well, it's back to work!
Starkman
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/25/2008 6:55 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Starkman said...
Starkman: You can argue that you were begotten prior to birth, but you'd have to go some to demonstrate how you were begotten before conception!
To mean by "begotten" that the Son was (eternally) brought forth by the Father has been discussed much here. My opinion: that theology isn't evident or implied in its use, particularly in John 1 (that's not even what the word "begotten" has to mean). Second, that theology doesn't have to be implied in order to maintain Christ as fully God and fully man. I have, however, acknowledged that the eternally begotten concept does contribute toward the idea of subordination of the Son to the Father in a manner that eliminates polytheism, but I don't see "eternally begotten" taught in Scripture.
Let's test drive your hesitation. You've posted "eternally begotten" as the benchmark. Let's try for that.
I'm also comfortable with expressions like "before all ages." So when I read in John 1:1-2, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." that fits the bill for me.
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/25/2008 6:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | | John 1:14 says, "the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
18 says, No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
16 through 18 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 1/25/2008 6:06:29 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/25/2008 7:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/25/2008 7:25 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Starkman said...PoW:
Keith, I can think of three or four different manners in which there can be "subordination" among various things or people. So I want to ask you, sincerely, as far as you and the Trinity go, what do YOU mean by subordination?
Starkman: How in the world are you going to suggest a subordination of any kind among three absolutely equally mind/will persons? There can be no subordination in the Godhead if we're going to hold that All three persons of the Godhead each has His own mind, will, etc. This is none other than polytheism. Thus, subordination, whatever it is, suggests something that must be going on, something with regard to God's "makeup," if you will, that eliminates polytheism within the Godhead.
Using the word "Hierarchy" doesn't get us around the matter any better; it implies subordination or subjection of some sort: I Cor 15:27-28
For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. But when it says “everything” has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all. (NET Bible)
This "subjection" (subordination) doesn't imply a less than; it implies a position. This, I contend, comes about by virture of how God exists as God; hence, the statement "that God may be all in all" in I Cor 15. The Word/Son, therefore, exists in the Godhead in a position of subjection, subordination as part of the heirarchy that is part of what God is.
In view of I Cor 15, it's not hard to understand how the Word on earth as the Son was given the authority to do what He did (with respect to you having quoted John 5:22-24). Ultimately, however, something will take place, when death is conquered, that will entail the back-to-business position of Christ in (loving) subjection to the Father.
I'm simply contending that I Cor 15 would be nonsense if all thre persons of the Godhead each has His own will/mind, etc. That's polytheism. What's going on in I Cor 15, however, suggests that the makeup of the Godhead has the Father "in charge," so to speak, because He truly is in charge (for lack of a better word). This is how the Godhead exists.
Then also he uses a correction, saying, “But when He saith, all things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject all things unto Him,” testifying even thence no small glory to the Only-Begotten. For if He were less and much inferior, this fear would never have been entertained by him. Neither is he content with this, but also adds another thing, as follows. I say, lest any should doubtingly ask, “And what if the Father hath not been ‘put under Him?’ this doth not at all hinder the Son from being the more mighty;” fearing this impious supposition, because that expression was not sufficient to point out this also, he added, going very much beyond it, “But when all things have been subjected unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subjected;” showing His great concord with the Father, and that He is the principle of all other good things and the first Cause, who hath begotten One so great in power and in achievements.
. . .
For he becomes a Son and a divine Person, so He obeys; not humanly, but as one acting freely and having all authority. Otherwise how is he co-enthroned? How, “as the Father raiseth up, even so He, whom He will?” How are “all things that the Father hath His,” and all that He hath, the Father’s? For these phrases indicate to us an authority exactly measured by that of Him that begat Him.
. . .
Touching this also, He Himself said to His disciples, “All authority hath been given unto Me by My father,” referring all to Him that begat Him, not as though of Himself He were not sufficient, but to signify that He is a Son, and not unbegotten. This kingdom then He doth “deliver up,” i.e., “bring to a right end.”
. . .
But what is, “that God may be all in all?” That all things may be dependent upon Him, that none may suppose two authorities without a beginning, nor another kingdom separated off; that nothing may exist independent of him. For when the enemies shall be lying under the feet of the Son, and He having them cast under His feet be at no variance with His Father, but at concord with Him in entire perfection, then He shall Himself “be all in all.”
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 1/25/2008 6:41:38 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/28/2008 10:29 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Starkman said...Pow, there is still nothing in what you've said or quoted to support the belief that the Son had been begotten at some time ("before" all ages"  or from eternity past. I'm NOT saying the Son wasn't begotten from this theological perspective; I'm only saying I don't see Scriptural proof.
John 1:1-2, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." That fits the bill for me.
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/28/2008 10:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | |
The other quotes
BUILD
ON
that
foundation.
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 1/28/2008 10:29:19 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
     |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/28/2008 11:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | HERE:
God's Only Begotten Son
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
One of our favorite Christmas Scripture verses is I John 4:9: "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him." The marvelous incarnation in human flesh of the only begotten Son of God is not the end of the story, of course. The next verse explains that we have life through Him because God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (I John 4:10). Our heavenly Father gives us eternal life instead of the eternal hell that we deserve because His only begotten Son died in our place for our sins. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21).
The Only Begotten of the Father
Consider, though, the significance of this revelation that Jesus Christ is the Father's "only begotten" Son. This unique phrase is used with reference to the Lord Jesus just four other times, and all five verses contain vitally important truths concerning Christ. These verses are as follows:
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).
This is the key verse of the Incarnation, assuring us that the man Jesus, who dwelt among us for a time, was also the eternal Word who was "in the beginning with God" and that He "was God" and that "all things were made by Him" (John 1:1_3). He was God the Creator manifest in the flesh.
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him" (John 1:18).
The Father is omnipresent, and therefore invisible to mortal eyes, but as Jesus said: "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). Men have seen and heard the Father in the person of His only begotten Son. Whenever God has been seen by men, it has been through the Son who has revealed Him.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
This verse, of course, is the most magnificent of all gospel verses; many would call it the greatest verse in the Bible. It assures us that, if we simply put our trust in our great Creator who has become man in order to die for our sins, and then to defeat death and become our Savior, our sins will be forgiven, and we shall live forever with Him.
"He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).
Other than the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). In view of all that our Creator/Savior has done for us, this verse gives clear warning that those who refuse or neglect to believe on the person and work of God's only begotten Son, will die in their sins, condemned forever by the Father whose Son they have spurned.
"God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him" (I John 4:9).
This great Christmas verse was discussed above and is a wonderful summary verse on salvation that Christians now often write on their Christmas cards.
The Only Begotten Son
But why was it important for the Holy Spirit who inspired these five great verses to stress that the Lord Jesus was the incarnate only begotten Son of God? Many modern English translations of the New Testament apparently do not consider it important, for they render the phrase merely as "only son." It is so rendered in the Living Bible, the Revised Standard Version, the God's Word translation, the Twentieth Century New Testament, the New Living Translation, the Moffatt, Goodspeed, and Williams translations, and many others. The New International Version renders it "one and only son." There are still a few, however?the best-known being the New American Standard and the New King James?that render it correctly (as in the King James Version) as "only begotten Son."
The Greek word for "only begotten" is monogenes, the very form of which clearly denotes "only generated." As monotheism connotes only one God and monosyllable means a word of only one syllable, so monogenes means only one genesis or only one generated?or, more simply, only begotten. It does not mean "one," or even "one and only." It is worth noting that, although Christ is called the Son, or Son of God, frequently in the New Testament, He is never (in the Greek original) called the "only" son of God.
The fact is, that to call Him the only Son of God would make the Bible contradict itself, for He is not the only Son of God, and certainly not the "one and only" Son of God. Angels are several times called the sons of God (e.g., Job 38:7) since they had no fathers, being directly created by God. Likewise, Adam was called the son of God (Luke 3:38), because he was directly created. The same applies even to fallen angels (Genesis 6:2), and even to Satan (Job 1:6), because they also were created beings. The term is also used in a spiritual sense, of course, for those who have become "new creations" in Christ Jesus by faith (II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; etc.). In this sense, we also are "sons of God" (e.g., I John 3:2) by special creation?not physically but spiritually.
But it is never applied in this sense to Christ, for He is not a created son of God (as the Jehovah's Witnesses and other cultists teach), but a begotten Son of God?in fact, the only begotten Son of God. He never had a beginning, for He was there in the beginning (John 1:1). In His prayer to the Father in the upper room, He spoke of "the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5).
In that wonderful Old Testament Christmas prophecy about His coming human birth in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), we are told that His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." His human body was, indeed, "brought forth" from "she which travaileth" (Micah 5:3). But long before that, He had been everlastingly going forth from "the bosom of the Father." As noted in John 1:18, He was still "in the bosom of the Father," even while He was on Earth manifesting the Father.
These truths are beyond our full comprehension, of course, for they are all part of the great mystery of the Tri-une Godhead. Christ is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), for as He said: "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).
Eternally Begotten
He is not just the only begotten Son of the Father, for He is also the eternally begotten Son of the Father. He is eternally "in His bosom," yet always "going forth" to "declare" the Father?once as the creating Word, occasionally in pre-incarnate theophanies, also through the Holy Spirit conveying God's written Word (which had been "eternally settled in heaven" [Psalm 119:89]) down to man through divinely chosen prophets, then ultimately appearing as the incarnate Word to live forever as the God/man.
The doctrine of "eternal generation" was what the older theologians called this great truth. He did not become the only Son by His virgin birth. He was the only begotten Son from eternity, "set up from everlasting" (Proverbs 8:23).
The First Begotten from the Dead
But that is not all. He was not just the only begotten Son in the beginning, He soon also became the "first begotten of the dead" in time (Revelation 1:5). He was "declared to be the Son of God with power, by the resurrection from the dead" (Romans 1:4). When Paul at Antioch preached on the resurrection, he declared that God "hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13:33).
He is the only begotten Son eternally and now the first begotten Son by resurrection, "the first fruits of them that slept" (I Corinthians 15:20). What a wonderful Savior is Jesus Christ, our Lord!
The Lord Jesus is not only the unique Son of God by eternal generation and by resurrection, but also by divine inheritance. God has "spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2).
The Uniquely Incarnate Son
His unique human birth, miraculously conceived with a divinely created body in a virgin's womb, had also marked Him as the incarnate Son of God. To Mary, the angel had said: "Fear not . . . that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:30,35).
His unique righteousness, in both character and action, still further marks Him as Son of God, for He alone possessed the divine nature from the beginning. He said on one occasion: "The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise" (John 5:19).
He was even identified as God's Son by heavenly proclamation. "There came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Mark 1:11).
The Lord Jesus Christ is thus Son of God by miraculous conception and virgin birth, by heavenly proclamation, by His uniquely perfect human nature, by divine inheritance, and by triumphant resurrection.
But, most of all and first of all, He is Son of God by eternal generation?the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the only begotten Son of God!
The Son Given
There is another great Christmas verse. "For unto us a child is born," known and beloved by every born-again Christian. That child was the infant Jesus, born of the virgin as prophesied hundreds of years in advance (Isaiah 7:14) in the little town of Bethlehem, as also prophesied (Micah 5:2). At the same time, "Unto us a son is given." That Son was the only begotten, eternally begotten Son of God. "And the government shall be upon His shoulder," for He holds the whole wide world in His hand! "And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).
As one with the everlasting Father in the Tri-une Godhead, He is also the mighty God. He is our Creator, our Redeemer, our Resurrected Savior, our King of kings and Lord of lords. "Wherefore He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him" (Hebrews 7:25).
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  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/29/2008 10:43 PM (GMT -6) |   |
feelinahole said...
Is John the only one who speaks of Jesus as the begotten? And how many times is he actually called that?
Harold, the post immediately ABOVE yours has all the scripture references helpfully in BLUE. I think they will help you answer your own question.
It's a helpful article.
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