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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 2/23/2004 6:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | This is something I have been pondering today: when we look at animals caring for their young, we think its good, but more in the sense of profitable for their species, not good in a moral sense, because, by and large, animal act on instint. They do not choose.
So I was thinking: can God be good without choosing to be? If he has to be a certain way, is it just good because God does it, which could make for a world where murder is good, or is goodness something even God must choose to be? Is goodness part of God, or is it something that exists, in some sense, outside of God?
How can God be good if good is a part of him? | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/24/2004 3:31 AM (GMT -6) | | I disagree to a certain extent with John's conclusion--we've had this conversation before, and it was a good one!
As one must define what "love" is before one can decide if God loves unconditionally, one must also define what "good" is before one can ask if God is good without choosing to be so.
Given the choice between a moral and an immoral choice, God, of course would never choose the immoral. But the question is why would God not choose the immoral? Simply because He won't? That would be neither assuring nor solid enough to ensure consistency. Rather, God will never choose immorality, evil, etc., because it's not in His character to do so. He simply does not exist as one subject to or confined in a context that places Him in the choice between the moral and immoral, between good and evil. (He works within our context of morality, but He Himself does not "dwell" in it.)
If it is not in the character of God to choose the immoral or to choose evil, then there is more to character than just choice; there is essence involved; God, as His essence is, is outside of the context of these choices, yet, at the same time, He can "visit" within the sphere where for those morality is a context--mankind, for example. Understanding this, I believe, is the crux of the issue: God will never choose the opposite of who He is by nature because it's simply not in Him to do so.
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 3/21/2004 4:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Here's the thing I have learned about animals. First they do what ever comes "natural". I'm thinking of a verse now in Romans where it speaks of men who do not have "natural" affection. Not persey, meaning they are homosexuals et. but, that they do not have the natural affection, that even most animals have for their young et.
However here is another thing. Having been around animals all my life, being raised and living on cattle ranches for over 40 years. Even animals will not have natural affection at times. That is you find cows that do not want their calves, horses that do not want their foals, and dogs and cats that do not want their young. And it is not because there is something wrong with their babies, it is because there is something wrong with them.
For instance take a breed of "French" cattle called Salers (don't know if I spelled that right, but any way...) Salers are well known for rejecting their calves and being just bad moma's in general. Leave it up to the French to develope a breed like that. When a Saler yearling has a calf, she will oft times just leave it or kick the thing to death for trying to suckel. You have to MAKE them into Moma's, and this you do by hobbleing their back feet and standing there with a two by four and every time the calf gose to suckel and they try and butt the calf away, you hit them in the head. (a two by four dose little to a cow's head, believe me, they are tough.)
Sounds cruel dosn't it. But it's no meaner than the cow that will kill her calf if you don't do it. I have literally seen cows stomp their claves to death.
Other behaviors that are natural and yet bizzare are like a dog we had. A red healer, who was a good mother to her own pups, but if another dog around had pups, she would sneak over and steal the pups one at a time and kill them. But then we've had dogs that would mother other pups, kittens, ducks, lambs et.
I once heard a minister do a sermon against homosexuality, and a point he made was that even animals don't act like that. Goes to show you how much he knew about animals. He said you don't see one bull going after another bull, but that's well....bull (bologna) because you have what is called a "sweet ass" bull (sorry but that's what they are called.) This is a young bull, that all the other bulls deside they are going to ride and breed. And if you don't get him out of the herd of bulls they will ruin and kill him, in that fasion. Boar pigs will do the same to another male pig.
And let's take lions. When a new male lion comes into a pride, having killed or run the previous dominent male off, he will kill all the cubs of that lion.
Now in Romans Paul refers to some men as "natual brute beasts". The reason being that they just do whatever comes "natural" to them. We on the other hand are called to do what usually dose not always come "natural", such as loving one's enemies, forgiving others et. and denying certain fleshly lusts, which just come "natural".
It seems that a "natural" man, is one that refuses to bring that natural instinct into obedience to God. There are plenty of "natural" christians out there, who deny to do the Word of Christ, and just do whatever comes "naturally" to them on a daily basis. While at the same time "claiming" that they are new creature, with a divine nature. However if their nature was truly "divine" as they claimed, then they would not do half the things that they do, because it would be "un-natural" for them, and people for the most part follow what comes natural. The thing is, with "practice", through renewing ones mind to the Word of Christ, what once might have been unnatural for you to do, such as loving your enemies, can over time become a part of your very nature, to where it becomes the "natural" thing to do, and thus you really do have the divine nature.
Yes they say animals act on instinct, and for the most this is true. But it seems so dose man for the most part, for we also are born with certain instints. And yet all animals, regardless of their instinct with which they are born, sometimes seem to choose to go against that natural instinct. Having been around many animals over the years, I can tell you that they all have their own distinct personalities, just like humans. Plus they can be trained to go against their instincts, and do things contrary to their very nature. In fact they can be taught to make a choice, just like man can. However they are smarter than man in that they are more prone to weigh the consiquences of their actions when they go against what the "master" wishes.
A horse trained to go where I want him to go, go's willingly, not because it's his natural instinct, but because I have shown him their will be consiquences for not going there. So in that case what was once "unnatural", seems to become the "natural" thing for him to do, since he seems to go willingly and without any big to-do. Now in my case, my methods are very humane, but none the less, he's going to be made very uncomfortable for not going where I want him to go. In that sense he learns to trust that I know what I'm doing, and he'll be fine. But it's not that he wants to please me, he's primarily pleasing himself, in that he's choosing peace over war. And he finds that he's most comfortable in my will.
In a sense it's the same in my decision to follow Christ. I personally do not always want to do or go where Christ would have me go. But he can make it real uncomfortable for me to do otherwise. I have learned over time that obeying the master, is in my best interests. He's taught me a lot over the years, about his relationship with me, through my relationships with animals.
His biggest problem with me, is that he didn't buy me when I was just a foal. No he got me after I'd already been through a bunch of training that left me spoiled and hostile, with a LOT of bad habbits. And even after 23 years of his mastership and training, I still revert to some of those old habbits. But he knows my problems and he just patiently brings me back, with disciplin and love to the road he wants me on. I truly wish he could have owned me from my mothers womb, and raised me in his training stable from the get go. But then I wouldn't have all these great analogies, because I never would have known the difference. And isn't it intresting how many of the Lord's parables dealt with animals, sheep, wolves, birds et.
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/21/2004 10:13 AM (GMT -6) | | God, being of infinite intelligence, always chooses that which is best (good) for the moral universe. God always does that which is good because that which is good issues from his intelligence. Good is simply the reasonable thing for God to do. Good is intuitive for God. The essence of God is in His ability to always choose the good. I submit that it is God's genuine ability to choose good over evil that is the mystery of His essence rather a static metaphysical characteristic which simply compels Him robotically to choose good.
My assumption is that anything that grants "life" is therefore the intelligent thing to do. Jesus rebuked Satan with the words, "Man does not live by
breath aloe but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God." As Christians know even the very experience of “life” itself is more
dependent on the Word of God than even physical nutrition. Interestingly, Matthew carefully introduces the Sermon on the Mount with the phrase
Jesus "opened his mouth and began to teach them,” clearly connecting what was about to follow— The Sermon on the Mount— with the life giving
Word of God despite many of the appeals in the sermon which appear counterintuitive and even the life threatening (e.g., love your enemies). The
Sermon on the Mount is what God has been trying to get man to "get."
A similar message is noted in Jesus' encounter with a “Teacher of the Law” when he quotes the Great Commandment… “Loved God … and love your neighbor as yourself" and follows the statement with the phrase, "Do this and live." Jesus then illustrates His point with the story of the Good Samaritan. Once again we see the experience of "life" explicitly connected with giving of one’s self—an action that does not come naturally any more than loving one’s enemies. Yet, despite the counterintuitive nature of the demands of the Sermon on the Mount and other commands of Jesus, for the Christian choosing to do good must be intelligent because they ultimately issue "life." Only faith given by the Spirit allows one to make the connection between choosing good and experiencing "life." The same paradigm must be true on a much grander scale for the eternal life experienced within the Godhead.
The fact that God could choose evil but does not is what is praiseworthy for me created in His image. I, being created and retaining a part of His image, feel the tension between good and evil and, unfortunately, often choose the evil. It is precisely because of this very real contrast and very real tension that I stand in awe of God and his faithfulness to always choose the good. Ultimately it is God's intelligence that compels Him to choose the good. For choosing good renders “life."
Furthermore, the future is not dependent on a static, perhaps mysterious, metaphysical property within the Godhead which compel choosing good. Rather, the future is not in jeopardy because God has been choosing the good from infinity past. At least pragmatically this would appear to guarantee, mathematically and otherwise, that God will continue to choose the good into the eschaton since infinity only equates with itself.
These are a few of my undifferentiated thoughts on an interesting topic.
Blessings,
John
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/21/2004 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi.
I could make a post something to the effect that God is Personal in Tri-unity. And that it is fairly pagan (though it happens) to equate God with an abstract divinity... But that would be academic, and maybe dry.
So. PLEASE forgive me for posting a LINK. It has some really grat quotes in the footnotes at the end, by many early Church Fathers who write about God's love.
It wouldn't be so long, but its so good.
Here's one quote:
quote:
1 "This is evil: estrangement from God." St. Basil the Great, That God is Not the Cause of Evils, "ELLHNES PATERES THS EKKLHSIAS" [Greek Fathers of the Church) 7, 112 (hereafter cited as EPE). "As many... as stand apart in their will from God, He brings upon them separation from Himself; and separation from God is death." St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 5. 27.2. "Men, rejecting eternal things and through the counsel of the devil turning toward the things of corruption, became the cause to themselves of the corruption in death." St. Athanasius the Great On the Incarnation 5 (Migne, PG 25. 104-105). "For as much as he departed from life, just so much did he draw nearer to death. For life is God; deprivation of life is death. So Adam was the author of death to himself through his departure from God." St. Basil the Great (PG 31. 945).
OK.
Oh, just one more...
quote:
8 "'For God so loved the world as to give His Only-begotten Son unto death for it.' Not that He could not have redeemed us by another means, but He wished to manifest to us His boundless love, and to draw us near Him through the death of His Only-begotten Son. Indeed, if He had anything more precious than His Son, He would have given it for our sakes, in order that through it our race would be found nigh to Him. Out of His abundant love, He was not pleased to do violence to our freedom, although it was possible for Him to do so; but He let it be in order that we would draw nigh to Him with the love and volition of our own will." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 81.
(Save a copy. Its long.) | | Back to Top | | |
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