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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/2/2004 6:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
See this article in Books and Culture (a Christianity Today Co. magazine) called "The Meaning of Christ's Suffering" by Frederica Mathewes-Green.

www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2004/002/1.28.html
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quest for truth
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   Posted 3/2/2004 11:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey PotOnWheel,
What did you think of the article? Did you see the movie yet? I did and have been wondering where Mel Gibson obtained all of his information that went into the movie.Researching I'm curious about your thoughts.

Thanks.Smile
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/3/2004 12:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
I'm not attracted to violence.

That requires an explanation from me -- and a good one. "Violence" is the life-blood of Christianity. We have martyrs (means "witnesses"), and we have the Cross. So violence is not something Christians should shrink from. I just don't want to bathe in the emotion and shock of violence. Not when my emotions and stamina "are for" something else. The violence I should seek, and try to seek is this: TO TAKE UP MY CROSS AND FOLLOW CHRIST.

Rather than bathing in Christ's violent death (in which He was the decisive victor), aren't we called to consider the Cross our joy? "Christ has died…Christ is Risen." Surely Christ's sufferings for us are penultimate. But what comes to mind amidst all the focus on celluloid pain is that the few hours depicted in Gibson's film are NOT the sum total of Christ's sufferings for our sin. What do I mean?

Here the Heidelberg Confession and Orthodox tradition say the same thing. Christ's suffering for us begins with the Incarnation (at the Annunciation) and proceeds through His nativity, his growing up, and all the way through His death on the Cross. See here in the Lord's Day 15, Q&A 37: "That he, all the time that he lived on earth, but especially at the end of his life, sustained in body and soul, the wrath of God against the sins of all mankind: that so by his passion, as the only propitiatory sacrifice, he might redeem our body and soul from everlasting damnation, and obtain for us the favour of God, righteousness and eternal life." (Of course we will have to consult some Greek definitions to help in understanding what "God's wrath" should refer to here-whether the writers of it knew or not.) The H.C. says: "… all the time that he lived on earth (he) sustained in body and soul, the wrath of God against the sins of all mankind." That is, he became like us in everyway (fallen) except committing sin. He "knew" sin without himself sinning. He knew the consequences of the fall because it was fallen humanity that he assumed from us. The base fact of the incarnation is no smaller a matter than is Calvary!

That is part of the reason that I'm not desperate to see Gibson's "Passion." I like the whole story; and I don't want to loose sight of the whole forest by concentrating too much, or in an unbalanced way on one or a few trees.

A help in keeping this sort of balance is the equilibrium gotten by keeping both Testaments together - Older and Newer. Two things can certainly be said about the Gospel: It is historical; and it transcends history. Keeping in mind the OT prophecies about the Messiah, and refreshing our memory of the stories which prefigure Christ help us keep the whole story in view. Like the Transfiguration's presentation of Christ with the representatives of the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah), stories like Jonah, and Prophecies like Isaiah present us with the end in the same view as the beginning. And the New Testament is the same: "For the joy set before him, he endured the Cross while despising the shame.

If Mel Gibson's film has this balance - and I hope that it does - then I hope that in your conversations, both with those you go to church with AND those you work with and live by, that you present this balance to them too!

This weekend I heard in a homily that when Cross is mentioned in Eastern Orthodox liturgy that joy of Christ's victory immediately follows. The Sorrow is answered by joy. "Through the Cross Joy came into the world." This reminds me of a CRC Banner article a few years ago, in March of 2002, written by John D. Witvliet:



An Easter Saturday Devotional Exercise

If you're feeling a need to exercise your theological imagination, here's a lesson from the early church. Travel back in time about 1,600 years and read the Scripture readings that several churches near Jerusalem used in their Easter Vigil service. We know about these because we have manuscripts of their "read the Bible in a year" program (which they called a "lectionary"). As you read these texts, ask yourself how they prepare you to experience the power of Easter:

Genesis 1:1-3:24
Genesis 22:1-18
Exodus 12:1-24
Jonah
Exodus 14:1-15:21
Isaiah 60:1-13
Job 38:1-28 2
Kings 2:1-22
Jeremiah 31:31-34
Joshua 1:1-9
Ezekiel 37:1-14
Daniel 3:1-30

-John D. Witvliet




Elsewhere in that Banner article he wrote:


To many of us who are used to celebrating the Lord's Supper on Maundy Thursday or Good Friday, it may seem strange to have the Lord's Supper on Easter. Isn't the Lord's Supper supposed to "proclaim Jesus' death"?

Many early Christians thought so too but also noticed that the supper was to be done "in remembrance of me," which they wisely interpreted as referring to Jesus' whole life-his birth, teaching, suffering, death, resurrection, and ascension. In their way of thinking, the Lord's Supper belonged both to Passion Week and Easter. (If you've never sung both "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" and "Christ the Lord Is Risen Today" during communion, you have something wonderful to look forward to!)

In the early church, this elaborate service summed up the whole Good Friday-Easter gospel. At first most churches didn't hold separate Good Friday and Easter services. Just as baptism celebrated a dying and rising, so too a single Easter service held together the themes of death and resurrection, sacrifice and deliverance, the image of Jesus as both lamb and shepherd, both servant and prince.

In holding these themes together, early Christians resisted the temptation to overemphasize either the cross or the resurrection at the expense of the other, which so easily leads to an imbalanced view of God and a skewed view of the Christian life.
Later in his life Augustine preached at a lot of Easter baptism services. In one sermon he advised, "Regard yourselves as delivered out of Egypt from a harsh servitude, where iniquity ruled over you, and as having passed through the Red Sea by baptism, in which you received the seal of Christ's bloody cross."

Later Martin Luther would write a stirring Easter hymn with the words, "See, his blood now marks our door; faith points to it, death passes o'er, and Satan cannot harm us. Alleluia!" (See Psalter Hymnal no. 398.) Now that's cause for rejoicing!




Of even in the reading of the Gospels in Church Dr. Witvliet points out:


"Augustine himself described Eastertide as "a period, not of labor, but of peace and joy." He noted that in his church in North Africa the people prayed standing-even during the "long prayer"-as a "sign of the resurrection." Throughout the season they also sang a deeply moving praise anthem, the "Alleluia," probably right after the Scripture reading, "to indicate that our future occupation is to be no other than the praise of God." They didn't tire of singing Easter hymns by the second Sunday after Easter."



Then it must be asked… Since I'm emphasizing the joy of the resurrection so much in this post, and since the subject of Gibson's film is the Passion, what of the Cross?

We can use s single message of Christ's to answer this: "Take up your cross and follow me." In taking up our crosses we participation in Christ's suffering and victory. And that is what Lent is about.

When my sister-in-law and brother-in-law practice lent in the Orthodox tradition, and give up meat and cheese and oil for forty days, they do more than just make themselves uncomfortable. Growing up Baptist (having only Palm Sunday, Good Friday and Easter to ponder) and teaching at a Lutheran high school in a UCC church I got to see what students "said" Lent was. Most reckoned it was a self-inflicted punishment, that was good for you-they supposed. Perhaps it is only an analogy, but the Orthodox certainly do have large Pascha (Easter) Baskets. Everything once given up - put into the tomb is how I viewed it - comes back at the resurrection. And there is the analogy. Its not sliced ham (And they have every kind of meat, and cheese, and sweet, and fancy bread that you can imagine in their huge baskets!) or colored eggs that are the real subject of Lent. It is themselves. The weaknesses of going without and the presence of self-knowledge that the stomach brings would do them no good at all without the other half - with is prayer and worship and Christian fellowship. Lent is NOT an individual thing. It is not giving up coffee, or chocolate, or ice cream. It is striving to give up sin! And the ONLY way to give up sin is to put it into the tomb and roll a huge rock across the opening. And there is only ONE tomb big enough for our sin! It's not for rent. We can't use it later, second-hand. It must be co-habited. Bonhoeffer said "Wenn Jesus ruff ein Mann, Er ruff Ihm 'Komm und sterben.'" ("When Jesus calls a man, he bids him, 'Come and die.'") Think of putting into the tomb everything that I hope to have resurrected with Christ (A Noah-tic ark of the noetic.)

That is why I love to these two articles on the "Resurrection" at Modern Reformation Mag.

Two Articles on the Resurrection
Raised For Our Justification
By Lee Irons
www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086|CHID560784|CIID1413406,00.html

Justified by the Resurrection
By Paul F.M. Zahl
www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086|CHID560832|CIID1413748,00.html


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quest for truth
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   Posted 3/3/2004 1:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
The weaknesses of going without and the presence of self-knowledge that the stomach brings would do them no good at all without the other half - with is prayer and worship and Christian fellowship. Lent is NOT an individual thing. It is not giving up coffee, or chocolate, or ice cream. It is striving to give up sin! And the ONLY way to give up sin is to put it into the tomb and roll a huge rock across the opening. And there is only ONE tomb big enough for our sin! It's not for rent. We can't use it later, second-hand. It must be co-habited. Bonhoeffer said "Wenn Jesus ruff ein Mann, Er ruff Ihm 'Komm und sterben.'" ("When Jesus calls a man, he bids him, 'Come and die.'"

Thank you PotOnWheel! I love the season of lent for it is a cleansing time -- a time to take captive a part of self that wants to rule. I find that giving up/self sacrificing during lent helps me to enter into the Easter celebration. By sacrificing something throughout the season of lent I find that I am preparing my spirit for the death to selfishness. I love the feeling that accompanies this death of self -- the feeling of rising in Christ's resurrection from the grave after having sacrificed for six weeks. The feeling of having accomplished the task of taking a part of myself captive and surrendering it to God's will. As we lose ourselves we actually find ourselves. As we die to self we find fullness of life in Christ. Mel Gibson's movie has actually helped me to enter into this time of preparation by seeing just how hostile the passion of Christ was. My little self sacrifice doesn't even come close (not by a LONG shot) to the sacrifice Jesus made yet it helps me to feel that I am giving up in an effort to die a little bit more to myself so that I can offer my sacrifice as a sweet scent unto my Lord with a disciplined spirit. "What shall I give him poor as I am ... What shall I give him I'll give him my heart."
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/4/2004 12:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth

Thank you PotOnWheel! I love the season of lent for it is a cleansing time -- a time to take captive a part of self that wants to rule. I find that giving up/self sacrificing during lent helps me to enter into the Easter celebration. By sacrificing something throughout the season of lent I find that I am preparing my spirit for the death to selfishness. I love the feeling that accompanies this death of self -- the feeling of rising in Christ's resurrection from the grave after having sacrificed for six weeks. The feeling of having accomplished the task of taking a part of myself captive and surrendering it to God's will. As we lose ourselves we actually find ourselves. As we die to self we find fullness of life in Christ. Mel Gibson's movie has actually helped me to enter into this time of preparation by seeing just how hostile the passion of Christ was. My little self sacrifice doesn't even come close (not by a LONG shot) to the sacrifice Jesus made yet it helps me to feel that I am giving up in an effort to die a little bit more to myself so that I can offer my sacrifice as a sweet scent unto my Lord with a disciplined spirit. "What shall I give him poor as I am ... What shall I give him I'll give him my heart."


Y'know that we can turn this whole thing into a "works"-fest. We can think that our accomplishments accomplish something. You said it right when you remarked "By sacrificing something throughout the season of lent I find that I am preparing my spirit for the death to selfishness." THAT said well, I don't grasp why comparision to the "size" of the sacrifice matters. We are saved IN CHRIST. The "As we lose ourselves we actually find ourselves." is not eastern mysticism. Its our participating in Christ by the Spirit, and the Spirit working in us. Its a dialogue.

:-)
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quest for truth
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   Posted 3/4/2004 2:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PotOnWheel
quote:
Its a dialogue.

I agree. In relationships we want to express our love and appreciation for the other by offering a token of our love or by saying kind things or by doing an act of kindness for the one we love. With God I find that the season of lent provides an opportune time to offer a sacrifice (something that is hard for me to give up) as an offering of my love for God. I offer God my love when I praise him as well. I show my love for God when I do an act of kindness for someone down and out. It is a dialogue. It is not a legalistic work but rather a means of expressing my love to my creator. For me lent provides a time of reflection on the wondrous gift that Jesus gave in taking on the cross for our sins. I take on a personal cross by dying a bit more through my sacrifice of praise and offering.

Thank you.


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/4/2004 5:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Amen.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/6/2004 3:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
to answer the question of what Christ DID on the Cross for us, one might need to ask the question "what needed fixing."

The Gothic tradition (14th cent.) of the passion (pieta) brought into public consciousness the message introduced (11th cent.) by Anselm, archbishop of Canterbury, England.

Sin: Infraction or Infection?
by Frederica Mathewes-Green
www.frederica.com/orthodox/infraction-infection.html

quote:
Anselm believed that God could not merely forgive us, because our sins constituted an objective wrong in the universe. It could not be made right without payment. No human could pay such a huge debt, but Jesus' blood was more than sufficient to pay it, which gave Jesus a “claim” on God the Father. “If the Son chose to make over the claim He had on God to man, could the Father justly forbid Him doing so, or refuse to man what the Son willed to give him?”



KLIK and see: www.frederica.com/orthodox/infraction-infection.html
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/13/2004 3:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A quick (and shortened) version of another review (by Hopko) on Gibson's film:


    The varied scriptural testimonies to the Christ and his shameful death by crucifixion . . . are synthesized and explained by Christians of orthodox traditions in three inseparable ways that inform and illumine each other.

  • The scriptural Christ is first of all God’s final prophet who speaks God’s final word.


  • The scriptural Christ is also God’s final highpriest, not in Aaron’s line, but appointed by God according to the order of Melchisedek."


  • The scriptural Christ, finally, is God’s last king who accomplishes God’s ultimate victory for humanity and the whole of creation through his crucifixion.



  • In this reading of the Bible, the Christ had to refuse the temptations of earthly power, prestige, position, possessions and pleasures. He had to be poor, meek, humble, lowly of heart and scorned by men. He had to die the shameful death of crucifixion at the hands of sinners for the sake of sinners whose wickedness is more often miserable, banal and pathetic than it is violent, spectacular and dramatic. We should remember, in this regard, that crucifixion was a common occurrence in Judea in Jesus’ time. And we should also recall that according to the first Christian writings the rejection of Jesus by both Jews and Gentiles was not his crucifixion. It was rather, and still remains, the rejection of the gospel of his theanthropic lordship manifested in his prophetic word, his priestly sacrifice and his royal victory on the cross. Some people saw all this in Mel Gibson’s eerie and violent film. I regret to say that I failed to do so.

    LINK: www.oca.org/pages/news/news_printable.asp?ID=490
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/13/2004 8:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Some LINKS on the topic of "Prophet, Priest and KIng" -- sorth a look.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/13/2004 8:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

Some LINKS on the topic of "Prophet, Priest and KIng" -- sorth a look.






quote:
from www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc06/htm/iii.lvii.v.htm

. . . The Evangelical doctrine followed in the beginning the tradition of a twofold office (cf. the works of Luther and the older Evangelical catechisms). Calvin added the prophetic office as a third function . . .

. . . The orthodox followers of Calvin, however, attempted both to explain the full content of the Messianic person from three points of view, and to analyze the act of salvation in its historical development according to the threefold scheme, thus not easily escaping the mistaken assumption that Christ had become first prophet, then priest, and finally king. It became the custom to deprive Christ of his royal function in the state of humiliation and of the prophetical function in the state of exaltation.




And what can happen is seen in the _depriving_ of one aspect in an uncalled for exchange for another, when BOTH of them should be recognized to opperate together.

Perhaps the inertia for this is found in Anselm. From that preconception one might feel that Christ could not be Victor on the cross. But He was!!!

Calvin seems to have recognized this. Don't you think?
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